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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

Tomo009 said:
So overall, the matchup is just safer from PW's side. It plays out a bit like the Valentine matchup actually. But Valenine is a better flight character than Painwheel.

I'm still not sure on the matchup one way or another, but for what it's worth on the painwheel side unfly goes a long way against him when you're trying to get in. I thiiiiiiiiink his AA grab works similarly to excellabella in that it's only unblockable if you have upward momentum.

The other consideration is that when you do get in, he has to mash BE/Jazz or guess on instant overheads from the character with really, really, really good instant overhead conversions.
 
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Tomo009 said:
So that's why you never play me anymore? haha

If I played solo BB that would have been a really long time ago? I'm sure I've played squig/BB or one of my main teams against you since then?

I wasn't arguing that she destroys him, someone posted about having trouble fighting BB the way she usually plays matchups and I explained how I've played PW against BB in casual games and from my knowledge of BB, how his tools don't necessarily work against PW properly.

I don't think the matchup is a landslide at all, I don't think I ever even insinuated as such, BB has tools, they are just riskier than PW's I feel.


This sounds much more reasonable, i can accept this.
 
Hilary said:
I'm still not sure on the matchup one way or another, but for what it's worth on the painwheel side unfly goes a long way against him when you're trying to get in. I thiiiiiiiiink his AA grab works similarly to excellabella in that it's only unblockable if you have upward momentum.

The other consideration is that when you do get in, he has to mash BE/Jazz or guess on instant overheads from the character with really, really, really good instant overhead conversions.
Yep, I actually mentioned exactly this in multiple of my posts haha. A-train is not very good against PW unless you REALLY are expecting her to push buttons. Or you use it on offense, which is always a good use of it.

He does have SSJ which is fast enough that it tends to go through PW's multi hits up close, so that's the thing to watch out for. Beat Extend is actually pretty difficult to use while being pressured unless you parry into it.Also if you are directly above him or slightly behind him, you should stuff out beat extend most of the time.
 
Okay I keep running into this term, but I have no idea if it's literal or some tech jargon.

I knew you could fly, but UNfly?
Last time I checked there's no way to just stop flying without doing an attack of some kind, grabbing, or trying to fly a third time.
Do you mean to tell me that there's an unfly button to press now?
 
Unfly was implemented fairly recently (the last major changes to PW with her damage getting nerfed).

Push 2 punch buttons at the same time. You keep your momentum going forward. You keep 50% of your momentum going backward (I think).

It does help in some match ups, but I think we are still learning it as a community. For example, MikeZ said that in the Parasoul MU, if you unfly into block vs her j.lp > j.hp, you'll land first canceling hit stun allowing you to punish.
 
Dont believe everything mike tells you, that punish is hard and and its timing varies. Plus if parasoul isnt at least minus 5 and you have a 5 frame move... The you cant punish and can easily eat a pillar for trying to. in painwheels case we have no 5 frame moves. Best we could realistically help for is a deathcrawl punish since it has hitstop and then go into a safe dhc that we can combo off of like cats or gregor.


Not impossible... But it will randomly not be punishable depending on what height it was blocked at.
 
Worst case, it puts you in my face on frame advantage. Pillar is obviously a great option for me, given the tremendous amount of reward I get for hitting it, with almost no risk.. ~
 
Oh. Two buttons at once kind of makes it a turn off for me.
Well. I guess I could make left bumper do something valuable since I never use the macro. Thanks though.

But I know better than to try and punish a good Parasoul. They will swat you like a fly if you try any funny business.
Sometimes grabbing her on the ground works. But good luck when they know you do that. They can adjust in a pinch.
It often seems like a game of being just a step or two ahead to get slower moves in.

Once I figure out how to get out of corners solo, I'll be in better shape in that matchup.
 
I'm thinking that painwheel with parasoul oh shot assist might be really good. Ive tried it against players weaker than myself with astounding results (they almost couldnt move) unfortunately i havent been able to test against competition that is really up to snuff yet. Has anyone here ever tried to put hp shot on painwheel as an assist? It seems to give pw incredible jumpjn ability as well as a much more effective stinger cancel game. The remarkable thing is that the shot tends to beat out assists such as hornet bomber, and it makes it so that spacing fly j.mp at max range isnt nearly as much of a chore since the shot protects painwheels backside if she overshoots the j.mp. It also gives pw lots of pressure.


Painwheel has no gtfo... But she finds it hard to capitilize on gtfo anyways. This seems to bring out painwheels natural zoning abilities to the fullest.
 
Continuing on what i said above... New theory team:

No painwheel as far as ive seen has used l beat extend as an assist... Well I'm here to say that it is godlike and with hat is known at this time... Probably the best assist for painwheel in the entire game. She can easily combo off of it and it doesnt knock backwards or forwards so painwheel has no need to dash in either direction to confirm it from otg. If that werent enough, beat extend holds the opponent for a bit making it super easy to confirm and allowing painwheel to dash if she wants to... Like if she jumped backwards and called the assist she can easily confirm hit, land and dash and otg the opponent.


This is GODLIKE. And beat extend hits on both sides of big band so it isnt easy to just jump over like pillar and updo. Also, though it isnt fully invincible (has 2 frames of hittable startup compared to mk and lk bombers 4 frames of vulnerable startup) it is invincible in its first active frame and has a huge disjointed hurtbox in its last active frames.

So... This is definitely my new dp assist. Ive been using it with ridiculously stellar results... Painwheel that can play like other characters and get conversions like val? Omg. Shit is nutty good.


But that leaves parasoul also having pillar which is semi no good.

BUT, i can just go h tearshot with parasoul and i have the good for offense fireball assist or great for defense and frame traps l beat extend.

So, this team is looking like it might be painwheels best theory team with her on point.

The only thing right now is that the team is very prone to snapping in BB since hes the problem assist that works ludicrously well for pw and para. And though he can make use of both paras and painwheels assists... Not having a dp assist for him is hampersome. This is the primary reason why i would want to either drop para from the team and grab double second (mk bomber) or use para but give her pillar so that BB isnt left hanging on snap in once the lockdown cools.


What do you guys think?
 
^^GREAT IDEA


also, just tested the pw point team against a very good australian player. Worked like the TITS. shit is dumb. Got smacked up by peacock... But i would never run beat extend against peacock points. That matchup is hp brass all day.
And yeah that player saw that post and did snap in BB near every chance he got.... It was troubling. But still with vulpes advice that will be less frightening. But lol... I was converting beat extend so much i felt like i was using val.. Lol

So.... Now all i got to do is learn how to use BB for something other than his assist and supers... Probably take him and para duo up against the computer once i get acquainted with his combos a bit.
 
Yeah I think Beat Extend is amazing for PW (well... for anyone to be honest). I was looking at running PW/Squigs/BB. I ultimately went with MF instead of BB though because I couldn't mesh with his playstyle.

But yeah, I'm with Isa. I'd put Para on point (for the reasons above), but also because it gives you a safe DHC in the form of HI (which for two meter solves the snapped-in BB problem). Not to mention, if you do end up with some meter (and you will since Para is much better than PW at getting it), BB with meter is not something that can be ignored.

Extra points for making Pinion Dash work.
 
Krackatoa said:
I use Beat Extend. <_<

Team for a while has been Painwheel/L Beat Extend/Cilia Slide.


How is slide working out for your band? Seems dubious for neutral, but i dont know shit about band so... Certainly could be wrong. What do you think are good assists for BB? Ive been thinking about running BB second cause that seems like a natural slot for him. Maybe run parasoul as anchor and have BB transition to her anchor on dhc...

I dont mind BB anchor because I'm always looking to dhc him in to make use of ssj damage... Then get him out as soon as possible and do it again. I'm thinking painwheel/BB as a duo might be decent if i can find a decent assist for band from pw... Though this team will also be prone to snaps.

Hmm... Ill figure out something eventually. Running para first with pillar assist is still very good. But I'm looking for a different kind of cheese i think.
 
Actually, tearshot sounds hilarious for BB. Time your rush punches to connect just before tears explode and you get mega-mondo safe confirms, plus a grounded zoning option for when you're double jumping. You also get DHC into Bikes, which isn't the best, but can still be good. BB is a character who makes the best of hard reads.

Cilia Slide isn't the best for BB. I mostly use it for PW option-selects.
 
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Hmmm... I think i might just go with mk bomber or maybe even hk egret... I have choices to make thats for sure. The tear shot seems ok from what ive seen but i still have to turtle to get a tear assist out at a safe time and then hope it makes contact plus double jumpjng with tear shot just hangs parasoul out to dry... Bb can protect her with landing into brass xx ssj... But no ability to dhc... So just raw damage... Hmmm... Maybe it can work. Brass xx ssj is no joke damage. But might not have utility against duos since its metered damage. Lots of people out here in au specialize in duos... Which can be problematic.
Cause they kill easily, but are hard to kill, thus meaning that they can take much of the fight out of a trio team by killing its first character with no meter>momentum> second character dead on one hit... Game is as good as over cause no amount of meter for anyone is really enough to make a comeback 2v1 when the 1 is a weak trio character (even if i could manage to kill the first character with my anchor... The next duo anchor comes in with crazy meter and a huge life lead and its just... Yeah. Not the best of circumstances.

But I'm getting ideas though. Oh and in other news randomly..l been using the painwheel burst baits... Holy lord that shit is no joke... Painwheel killing teams straight out with one confirm... Shit is dumb the amount of fear that her burst baits can give.


All very character dependent though... Which is a pain.
 
Dime_x said:
How is slide working out for your band? Seems dubious for neutral, but i dont know shit about band so... Certainly could be wrong. What do you think are good assists for BB? Ive been thinking about running BB second cause that seems like a natural slot for him. Maybe run parasoul as anchor and have BB transition to her anchor on dhc...

I dont mind BB anchor because I'm always looking to dhc him in to make use of ssj damage... Then get him out as soon as possible and do it again. I'm thinking painwheel/BB as a duo might be decent if i can find a decent assist for band from pw... Though this team will also be prone to snaps.

Hmm... Ill figure out something eventually. Running para first with pillar assist is still very good. But I'm looking for a different kind of cheese i think.
If H shot is anything like Peacock plane, it makes Big Band neutral a little brain dead. Peacock plane means you can punch from a lot of ranges and be TOTALLY SAFE. If H shot does the same, it would be a great choice.
 
Painwheel Snap Changes and You:

Also practice your double snaps, you're gonna use 'em a lot more now. Join me in my campaign: No Bad Assist Call Gets Left Behind
 
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Dime_x said:
But I'm getting ideas though. Oh and in other news randomly..l been using the painwheel burst baits... Holy lord that shit is no joke... Painwheel killing teams straight out with one confirm... Shit is dumb the amount of fear that her burst baits can give.

Do you have some that aren't obvious? It might just be because she's my main, but I generally don't get caught in burst baits from a PW. It always feels like it comes out of a 7j.mp.
 
Spencer said:
Do you have some that aren't obvious? It might just be because she's my main, but I generally don't get caught in burst baits from a PW. It always feels like it comes out of a 7j.mp.


None of the burst baits that i mentioned up there are obvious... To me.

If i hit you with lk buer in the corner and fly cancel here are the options that i have to reset you (i use all of these)

1.j.hp (delayed high that hits people that hold down back, and hits people that block high then quickly switch to low block... This is one of my best resets against the people i play against)
2. Fly cancel land into throw.
3. J.mk overhead (just a fast overhead compared to j.hp)
4. Fly cancel land into low (works when they expect j.hp slow high)
5. Fly, up forward delay j.lp,j.lk (uncombod staggered high... Also sets up the fly cancel low and has a different look than the j.hp and catches block high then block low timing block.
6. Fly upforward delay j.lp, land and low/throw mixup (just throw most of the time... Works like the t)


Now... With all those options... The opponent wants to press buttons to tag or reversal out... Cause fuck trying to read all that bs... And when i think that is coming:

7. Fly up back or back j.lk or j.lp (very character specific). That isnt obvious at all cause it comes at the exact same spot as all the other mixups.


Which is the thing about all of the burst baits that i use... None are one off, they are all part of an overall mixup vortex.


Also, though i do use these burst baits, i dont reset at the same place all the time. My primary reset points are at st.hp, lk buer and lp stinger > st.lp and fly j.lp and j.mp. I have about a billion mixups off of all of them (except for j.mp)... They are all basically the same except that lp stinger has a ridiculously unseeable low mixup. And ive been developing more such as lp stinger, dash jump forward and call assist then fly back to original side for a non crossup, or lp stinger and cancel into fly then crossup or not.

Point being that the resets arent really predictable nor are they easy to block, which leads to the opponent wanting to mash shit out.

The primary thing though is that my burst baits come about as part of a mixup tree. Not some stupid squigly burst bait that they do that is obvious as hell. Also, these burst baits almsot all have throws as part of the mixup which forces buttons such as teching.


So, yeah just look at the burst baits that i mentioned in the reset thread :)
 
I've started playing Painwheel the other day and I just thought I'd come in here and say that she's fucking radical.
Switching to her was on of the best decisions I've made in this game.
 
If my memory serves, the long and short of it is that you can now Double snap easier and from great range with:

snap > dash > c.lk > stuff
 
bubbaking said:
That video link is broken... :/
Ya they uh... took down my youtube channel because of all the Simpsons clips I had on there D:

I'll have to create a new user at some point just for SG/Other non-simpsons stuff.
 
What prayers?

Get back to me in a month. Tell me if it has changed any of your match-ups. If it has... dear god, post some videos.
 
bubbaking said:
:PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI::PAI:

Looks like your prayers were answered, @Spencer. :p

Its only against the first hit against multihit moves, the entire hit against single hit moves. Where exactly do you think that applying this will help painwheels matchups? I can think against peacock item drop or hk bomb maybe... But after that i cant really see where its going to be useful other than as a straight block.

But we have to remember... Being put into blockstun isnt something that we want to do in sg in the first place so the tactic at best seems dubious..a buff against single hit moves... But not many people use single hit strategies against painwheel, because of armor, anyways.
 
The only uses I've found for unfly are to bait Excellabellas/A-trains and the occasional full screen Gregor (though you'd probably be better spending meter to thresher and combo).

It is supposed to help with Parasoul j.lp > j.hp. But I can't for the life of me, make it work. In theory, if you've got the read that solidly (5 frames, right?), you'd again be better off doing thresher > combo. I've been trying harder than usual lately to make it work, but it seems going up is a risk in any case what with Parasoul's amazing air throw to keep your unflying honest.
 
Spencer said:
Get back to me in a month. Tell me if it has changed any of your match-ups. If it has... dear god, post some videos.
No, nothing will have happened, cus you guys will still prefer to not even try using it but just cry for more buffs.

Dime_x said:
Its only against the first hit against multihit moves, the entire hit against single hit moves. Where exactly do you think that applying this will help painwheels matchups? I can think against peacock item drop or hk bomb maybe... But after that i cant really see where its going to be useful other than as a straight block.
Okay how about this, WILD THOUGHT OF GUY WHO DOESN'T PLAY PAINWHEEL.

Fly at a Parasoul, see her jump, input
PP, LP+LK, 236KK

Idea:
- If Parasoul is just jumping at you and blocking, you will Unfly>Airthrow her.
- If Parasoul is trying to airthrow, you will Unfly>Tech
- If Parasoul is doing j.LP>j.HP, you will Unfly, j.LP puts you into blockstun (can't airthrow in blockstun), chain into j.HP won't be a blockstring and you get a free Thresher

Does this work? I dunno. But this is a 30 second thought of a guy who doesn't even play the character;
I'm sure if someone actually thinks, he can come with uses for a safe air parry, or why it might have uses over being stuck in a super telegraphed j.HP animation (which btw has 6 non-armored startup frames)?
 
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I would think that lower unfly blockstun would make it easier to punish things like Para's Napalm Pillar and Filia's AD pressure, like AD j.HP. Same probably applies for Eliza's upcoming AD pressure. Idk, just throwing out some thoughts, but I may be thinking too elementary/basic.
 
Hell, I'm including Elda, NCV, and any other better-than-me PWs in that list (whom I imagine you'll have a difficult time calling lazy or whiny). But you're right about one thing. Nothing will have happened.

@bubbaking
You might be right, and despite Isa's bullshit that no one is trying to use it, I'm definitely trying to find a use for it. The issue with it is in most unfly situations, you could have done something better. In some cases, you are actually trading the momentum advantage and putting yourself at a disadvantage when something like an instant overhead or super would have punished harder or let you keep advantage.

Edited to add: I did call this in a different post though. That we PWs will have to deal with l2unfly for the next 6 months almost exclusively by non-PW players.
 
It has lots of uses... In VERY VERY narrow reads.

Did i say very narrow reads? Yes very narrow reads.

The best use of it that i can see is as an empty jump from fly. But it doesnt have enough forward movement from moving forward imho. I would have liked to see it be as varied as painwheels attacks... Have a forward fly version.. An upforward fly version a downforward fly version..
Etc etc. That way we can pick its range. As it is now. It doesnt have much range at all so its hard to get the fly to really get in there and block stuff upclose that pw can get a frame advantage off of.

Its also a good overall bait for things like st.hp xx fly unfly reset... To bait mashed supers... Yet if the opponent did nothing, pw is still moving forward aggressively... So shes not losing much momentum by baiting.

A theory fighter thought is fly plus assist, unfly forward. The thinking being to gain space from pws assist, especially if the assist isnt invulnerable, and block with pw, allowing the assist to spawn behind her and clear the way/counter the opponent.

Yeah... Thats probably a nice way to use it.

Another nice way to use it.. That would be VERY good. Is to use it on reaction to the opponents assist... Like on reaction to updo assist. This can already be done with j.hp, but j.hp is easy to break whereas unfly wouldnt.

Another good way might be to dash jump j.mp air to air, fly cancel on first hit, unfly cancel the fly and land. Basically an air to air pressure string. Call assist as you land. This would be a way to put pressure on the opponent while reducing ones risk to updo, and yet still being able to be aggressive with an outstretched attack to make sure the opponent is at arms length before committing to the unfly.


So there are some theory applications... But they are just that... Theory.
 
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Spencer said:
You might be right, and despite Isa's bullshit
Taluda won a major and got 3rd at EVO (Noah placing 5th), now she gets (or might get) an air parry and C.MK BEING A LOW, and you guys are still sitting here crying that all your matchups suck and boo the metergain isn't good and she's the hardest character and everyone else has all the options, how mean

You could lock me in a room for a month and I still wouldn't be able to write enough bullshit to keep up with that
 
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Another nice way to use it.. That would be VERY good. Is to use it on reaction to the opponents assist... Like on reaction to updo assist. This can already be done with j.hp, but j.hp is easy to break whereas unfly wouldnt.

This is precisely when I use it. When the read is obvious as fuck, I'm going to unfly. Going back to the "there is always something better" though. You'd be better of baiting it instead of putting yourself into blockstun while their point is free to move around. Obviously that isn't an option in every case, but I think it illustrates my point easy enough.

edited:

@IsaVulpes

She didn't "get" one. She had one... when he won that tournament. Neither used unfly once in either of their videos... once... not once. What PW got was a worse option of something that was so useful it wasn't used once by the two best PWs.

There isn't some big movement to make PW top tier. None of us are bitching about that. What we are bitching about is the cornucopia of non-PW players who insist on telling us how great all of these buffs are. Meanwhile, god-forbid, one of us mentions that PW can't gain meter for shit relative to most of the cast... that's going too far. All for a character which is consistently rated low-tier by the vast majority of people in the know.
 
@IsaVulpes

J.hp is 2 frames armor startup now, it got buffed to have armor faster, and all the way through active frames, but lost a hit to balance it. The effect was that it is about as useful as the old j.hp armor attack... Just different and much easier to actually absorb one attack with.


Your theory fighter unfly option select has merit... But it is slow as hell. Unfly makes painwheel immediately fall to the ground fast, it has 5 frames of animation, i dint knwo whether those frames are cancelable or not, but doing unfly and then an immediate throw either kills the point of unflying (cant block while in throw startup) or if unfly has to go through its active frames before being cancelable, or pw just delays the throw... Then the throw will probably go active VERY low to the ground... Making it not the best air to air.


But this is just theory. I just got some time off work (about 30 hours) and i will test that out after i have a nice sleep.

But yes you are correct in that it has uses. We just dont know how useful those uses are, yet. Also... It isnt a parry, man. Its nowhere near the usefulness of a parry. and it only works during the 5 frames of unfly animation which is less of a window than even cvs2 parries (like 7-8 frames) 3s and soul calibur parries (like 10 frames) and big band parries (13-17 frames) and it only works on single hits, only from flight, and isnt instant recovery unlike a parry. So in order to really use this move "like a parry" you have to unfly and hit the 5 frame window, and then immediately go into air super to blow through your opponents multihit move.


It isnt a useless thing. But its no parry.
 
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I will just say that I always thought c.MK should have been a low from the very beginning. More than half the cast gets access to all three crouching kicks being low and the ones that don't have crazy zoning or command grab options (Peacock, BB, Bella) or are Ms. Fortune. It didn't really make sense that PW didn't get three lows. <__<

Edit: Btw, I didn't see any mention of PW's c.MK being a low in the posted change-list. Was that mentioned in the stream or was it simply said elsewhere?
 
bubbaking said:
I will just say that I always thought c.MK should have been a low from the very beginning. More than half the cast gets access to all three crouching kicks being low and the ones that don't have crazy zoning or command grab options (Peacock, BB, Bella) or are Ms. Fortune. It didn't really make sense that PW didn't get three lows. <__<


Yeah, c.mk not being a low is one of the many many many "pre nerfs" that pw got just for being a flight character. I never agreed with it, but always thought it was just my not knowing painwheel enough and not making great use of her cr.lk in the first place. I dont know where the cr.mk becoming a low thing is coming from... But i do welcome it. I dont know how much of a buff it will be... But it will definitely make people more conscious of just blocking high against her after the first ground attack, and pushblocking her first aerial attack to basically take most of her mixup game away in both areas.
 
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Dime_x said:
It isnt a useless thing.

It is niche. That is the thing that we are all saying. It has uses in a narrow subset of situations (usually stemming from overly predictable play on the opponents part).

As far as c.mk, does anyone have any ideas for uses? It will make her standard blockstring (c.lk > c.mk > s.hp x fly) a bit harder to block, but lk seems to still win the best PW footsy award, no? So is it just mostly a buff to the situations dime mentioned? I can't see it being thrown out at neutral.

And seconding bubbaking and dime, I didn't see shit about c.mk turning into a low. When did this happen?
 
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