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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

It was removed because it couldn't be made into something useful, but its not... the worst assist in the world. So it stayed as that. Also HEY pinion dash should be one of her pre-made assists because new people won't know about it otherwise....
 
Pinion Dash vs Squigs good air zoning was super fucking annoying to deal with.
 
Weatherbee said:
It was removed because it couldn't be made into something useful, but its not... the worst assist in the world. So it stayed as that. Also HEY pinion dash should be one of her pre-made assists because new people won't know about it otherwise....


Pinion was one of painwheels most useful specials and its removal was a HUGE nerf to her offense.
Ive stated that many times and i stand by it.


I'm pretty sure pinions removal was because of mmds and others complaints about getting the move out at unwanted times.

The level 5 versions had combo properties (which were beyond my ability) and the level 1 version was an unpushblockable hitconfirm when combined with certain assists that allowed pw to have 2 chances to open her opponents up if the first confirm was blocked.
 
@Mr. X


At first i was thinking... No


But then i realized it wont be as hard as id imagined. I cant say for sure that i will make that thread, but I'll start working on it in the same way that peanuts did his thread. Eventually i will just copy paste everything in a new thread or someone else can.

I dont want to be the only one doing it though, but i can, if need be.
 
WOW buffs that i missed.
cr.hp charged is high. we melty now
cr.hk charged vacuums them in. this is really huge and make confirming from it not a chore/impossible
mmm
 
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@konkrete

When I was testing them out on beta, they do add a ton to PW. People have a habit of blocking when she's charging something, but this now gives her an effective 50/50 since you can charge c.hp or the now easier to combo c.hk.

I was hitting with it way more than I should... just have to watch out for throwers.
 
The cr.hp buff is seriously good... Almost to good tbqh.


@Spencer

New reset:


St.mp,j.mp,j.hp fly j.mk xx fly plus call squigly (or preferably beat extend) assist and fly cross them up.


Pretty dirty and is an aerial crossover.

Another version is j.mp,j.hp xx fly j.mp and put the opponent into aerial blockstun (they cant call assists till they hit the ground, because they are in superjump) then cancel the j.mp into fly plus assist (lk plus mp or whatever you use to call assists) then just fly crossover them.


Painwheel is basically becoming unblockable at this point.
 
I don't know. She's super solid on a team, but I don't think she's any worse than a Pea/Para/Fukua/etc with proper assists.

She brings a lot to the table once you get a hit, but she still has a harder time than other getting a hit... of course, jumping around fishing for a BE/Updo/whatever will definitely help.

I'll check that reset out, but truth be told I'm not playing much these days.

As for the c.hp buff, keep in mind you can still eat a throw. From what I can tell, a full charge is well into 30+ frames which is full reactable and the effect starts almost immediately meaning there are no "invisible frames" ie frames that hide what you are doing.

I see it more as a SFIV focus attack now. Something you usually cancel out of (via fly), but every now and again... let 'er rip. It will punish people who've been used to mashing bullshit though.

Editing to add that somewhere I posted an almost 9k 1 meter combo from (CH) hg.c.hp.

Does:
8600 to PW/Bella
9000 to everyone else

I'll copy/pasta it if I get the gumption to look for it.
 
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Spencer said:
I don't know. She's super solid on a team, but I don't think she's any worse than a Pea/Para/Fukua/etc with proper assists.

She brings a lot to the table once you get a hit, but she still has a harder time than other getting a hit... of course, jumping around fishing for a BE/Updo/whatever will definitely help.

I'll check that reset out, but truth be told I'm not playing much these days.

As for the c.hp buff, keep in mind you can still eat a throw. From what I can tell, a full charge is well into 30+ frames which is full reactable and the effect starts almost immediately meaning there are no "invisible frames" ie frames that hide what you are doing.

I see it more as a SFIV focus attack now. Something you usually cancel out of (via fly), but every now and again... let 'er rip. It will punish people who've been used to mashing bullshit though.

Editing to add that somewhere I posted an almost 9k 1 meter combo from (CH) hg.c.hp.

Does:
8600 to PW/Bella
9000 to everyone else

I'll copy/pasta it if I get the gumption to look for it.


Yeah I'm not saying shes busted or anything, just shes become a helluva good character. Not as braindead as the likes of peacock or filia/ double etc etc... But shes damn good.
 
bubbaking said:
PW's grounded charged heavies being a high/low mixup and her cr.MK being low are literally the only buffs I wanted to see on PW. Now I'm just happy. :')

Meter gain.

That cr.mk change was super solid though. It is stopping the inanity of block c.lk low and then switch to high for literally everything else. I'm finding the c.mk is hitting more often through blockstrings and overheads are hitting more often as people hold their low block a bit longer. We'll see how it is in the future since this seems like something people will adjust to, but I like anything that makes PW a touch tougher to block.
 
It's true that her meter gain is still butt, but I was thinking, perhaps it would be more viable now to have PW in the mid or anchor position so she can just use accumulated meter to close out the match (or provide safe DHCs), especially now that her 1v1 play is improving with better mix-ups.
 
I would have liked more damage on her lvl 1 and 2 stingers. As it is now, they are a pretty sore thumb as far as anything outside of a mediocre assist and flight cancels, which have nothing to do with the projectiles as far as flight canceling them.

Id like her stingers to be 1000 total, or 850 total. For all versions.... So lvl 1 is an 850 damage stinger, level 2 can be 300 damage per stinger (900 damage or so) level 3 can be like 175 damage per stinger.

But basically the lower end stingers need some sort of buff. They are slow to come out, have terrible space taking properties and do terrible damage.

Id want for her stinger startup to be decreased slightly to compensate or for her stingers to get a buff in damage... Not because she needs it... Which she does imho... But because it makes a hell of a lot more sense for the stingers to be balanced that way.
 
anyone asking for more buffs is an idiot, pw is perfect the way she is now.
edit: in addition, pw meter gain is fine, its just that noone resets enough, as the scaling from buers and stuff is what kills it. Just reset and combo into as many early non multihit strong or fierce buttons as you can then reset some more.
 
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WarpedEcho said:
anyone asking for more buffs is an idiot

I hope that wasnt directed at me... i dont think anyone is "asking" for more buffs. What i mentioned was more for consistencies sake, along the lines of all multihit overheads only being overhead on the first contacted move.

Either way i wouldnt be asking for it, its just one of those things that seems out of place... Like a dp with no invincibility seems out of place.. Fireballs with slow startup and recovery and low damage, similarly makes no sense.


As far as resetting more... Every character can reset more.... Even characters with good meter gain. And resetting more isnt much of a solution for meter gain when resetting is inherently risky and risks getting hit by reversals or at the very least just not working.


Also, your supposition for why pws meter gain is bad is wrong.


Pws meter gain as far as normals go, is the exact same as everyone elses and meter doesnt scale with damage iirc... And even if it did.. It still isnt the PRIMARY reason for her bad meter gain

-edit... Actually I'm wrong, it does scale with damage... But that still aint the reason for her terrible meter gain but... It certainly isnt helping things.


Painwheels bad meter gain is because the specials she uses dont gain much meter and the ones that are, arent particularly repeatable.


Her buer makes atrocious meter, by design as mike intended because in his own words... Buers are spammable in combos. Her other special that she gets to use quite alot is flight... Flight gains no meter either. So all painwheel really makes meter from is her normals but doesnt get the benefit of big meter gaining specials such as cerebellas specials like devil horns, kanchou, cerecopter etc etc etc

Bellas specials arent repeatable but she able to chain her specials into one another which is why bellas meter gain is so huge.

And just as a reminder, specials get meter twice on hit when done during hitstun, the first meter they get is just for being done and the second meter gain is for hitting.


Try this out:


Go to training mode and throw a stinger with pai pinwheel at the opponent from full screen. Notice the meter it gains (it will be small) now do it again, except this time, throw a second stinger just as the first one makes contact. Notice that the second stinger makes meter just for being thrown whereas the first one didnt. This is because specials make meter twice in when done in hitstun. Watch any combo and watch the specials and notice that they make meter twice.


Its the special meter build that painwheel sucks at that is the culprit behind her meter woes. And while resetting more does give more meter at the beginning of your combo you are also taking on greater risks but resetting more and allowing your opponent more opportunities to escape.


@bubbaking

Yeah you are probably right. They have to be bad regularly to justify the speed increase during HI
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
so you suppose that she gets higher chip too?

#hellnah
#keepPWassheis


Wouldnt hurt... Chip is one of the things that she could use... Even in hatred install her ability to do meaningful chip is terrible. All you have to do is jump and you block like one stinger per fully charged volley at full screen.


I only mention the stingers because as they are now that are only really used for flight cancels sometimes and to move her in and even then she cant rely on the strategy with any kind of consistency.

i DONT believe she needs the change as part of some sort of buff to her overall strength. Shes pretty damn strong right now. It just makes sense.... At least to me, design wise for her stingers to be a more core part of her game. Because right now with the exception of lp stinger, her stingers are mostly not used. I use the fully charged version on incoming opponents but all they have to do is pushblock. And its decent against other painwheels in the mirror.. But thats about it.


But like i said... Strength wise she DOES NOT need a stinger buff, it just makes sense to me the same way tear drops got a buff for para.


I mean god forbid painwheel went from being fine strength wise as she is now...to being top tier.. We wouldnt want that now would we...
 
WarpedEcho said:
anyone asking for more buffs is an idiot, pw is perfect the way she is now.
edit: in addition, pw meter gain is fine, its just that noone resets enough, as the scaling from buers and stuff is what kills it. Just reset and combo into as many early non multihit strong or fierce buttons as you can then reset some more.

Meter gain is fine-ish. PW is incredibly reliant on multihit moves which scale combos which scales meter gain. So you are in part right, she needs to reset (for the record, I play an insanely reset heavy game). But that isn't the full story. Even with resetting early and only going into full combos from optimal starters, she is mediocre at best. And for that mediocrity, she has to work twice as hard as others like MF (who still gets more meter), Parasoul (who gets amazing amounts of meter and just received a meter gain buff), and Peacock (who is the gold standard of meter gain) just to keep up. In a sense it is more a case of PWs meter gain is below average at best and detrimental at worst (and how many newer PWs know that you should pretty much never combo fully from j.mp/j.hp/j.hk).

At this point, I think I can safely assume that even optimally only Squigly performs worse (and she has more poke which builds more meter at neutral than PW does). Add to that, PW has no meterless reversal ie depends on meter for reversal and she's still not 100% unless she's running with a reversal assist. But you're right, on a team? She's looking pretty damn good.

Edit: by the way, is there a way to get numbers for meter in training? That would be fucking awesome!
 
Dime_x said:
a bunch of

Dime_x said:
stupid shit
First of all, charged nails are FREE chip. End of story. Also, buers are SAFE ON BLOCK, sometimes even when spaced poorly liked a block ground hk buer, and these do chip. death crawl and air thresher do decent chip as well. Not Fukua or peacock levels, but this is not what the character is designed for. Saying a character "could use things" or "it makes sense for a character to have x ability" is pretty much asking for buffs. And flight cancel from nails is godlike, and does not need more incentive to use. Ask anyone that know my general playstyle, and they will tell you how I convert off almost any nail hit from most ranges. It doesn't need a buff because it is already very good. The threat that gives a pw player makes you have to respect the space nails occupy, giving pw a very nice midrange game in addition to her huge buer specials, big and/or active normals (6hk, jmp, jhp, j hk, charge sweep, 2lk.) Add in flight, armor, and a ground dash that you can block from unlike running characters, and she can advance pretty much however she pleases, whenever she pleases from a midrange game being played against anyone not named peacock(although that matchup I think is only a slight 6-4 anyways). Last note, when it comes to resets, pw's can have some of the safest setups for resets in the game because meaty armored first active frame from full charge armor moves, in addition to armor + call assist.
 
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WarpedEcho said:
Also, buers are SAFE ON BLOCK, sometimes even when spaced poorly liked a block ground hk buer, and these do chip.

Wait a second... did I miss something in Painwheel class? I thought buers were hugely negative on block, and you couldnt flight cancel the recovery unless you hit with them.
 
Stonechimes said:
Wait a second... did I miss something in Painwheel class? I thought buers were hugely negative on block, and you couldnt flight cancel the recovery unless you hit with them.
They are safe if you space them properly (why would you use them not spaced well in the first place? they have huge range that should be abused), and grounded hk buer is just about always safe.
edit: just be careful about having them whiff. That's REALLY bad
 
all buers are -18. It doesn't matter how you space them. As long as they don't pushblock they can punish with, well, anything.
 
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konkrete said:
all buers are -18. It doesn't matter how you space them. As long as they don't pushblock they can punish with, well, anything.
I'd tend to disagree with this. Though I'll test this out for the cast now. In general when I space them well I don't get punished. At any rate, most people are not used to getting the punish when they are used at max range, so the meta hasn't developed against it yet at the very least.
 
To partially agree with Warped, they can be tough to punish meaningfully. The range on them gives plenty of time to chew through those 18 frames. That said, if you're throwing them out... well that shit is dangerous. You had better make sure they are definitely going to block it because if they jump, you're boned at 32 frame recovery.

DC and Thresher do average (for a super) chip at best... and a lot beat it out clean like Diamond or scalpels. And they are both infinitely punishable on block.

And runners move just about as far as dashers do with just two forward taps and back if you want the same block effect. Having a dash isn't really a benefit over a run in this game at all unless you just plain can't control your character. Add to that, PWs dash is one of the shortest in the game and is pretty damn slow and the only complement I can really give it is "at least we got a dash" because I would literally trade it for almost any other dash in the game.
 
This meter gain convo looking like people don't want to acknowledge what Painwheel has that other characters don't. Let me get the equivalent of flight cancels.
 
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yes, painwheel's dash is one of the shortest in the game, but pleeease stop comparing it to the rest of the character's dashes. In painwheel's world, it's a solid dash, and it isn't that short. Gotta give Carol some credit, I mean she's only 5'1" and weighs 375 lbs...poor girl :(

jbK3uzp.jpg

VEW9z09.jpg
 
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Mr. X said:
This meter gain convo looking like people don't want to acknowledge what Painwheel has that other characters don't. Let me get the equivalent of flight cancels.
Let pw get the equivalent of air dash cancels, stancels, roman cancels, runstop, headless mode, emergency break on moves, shadowcharacter projectiles, meterless reversals, and teleports. #BeanieHipster #Kappa #SourPls
I'm not the one saying her meter gain is bad mister (X)
 
WarpedEcho said:
First of all, charged nails are FREE chip.


Oh well in that case, a dp is a dp, a super is a super and a command grab is a command grab. All are the same, none have any differences.


Yep you convinced me. Free chip that does 100 damage at ratio 1 and requires you to make the opponent block 143 stingers 1v1 to kill them, 71 stingers to do half damage, 35 stingers to do a 1/4 damage 17 stingers to do an 8th of damage... And thats when fully charging hp stingers. So 17 full charges to do an 8th of the opponents hp... Yeah like thats going to happen.

Also, i dont know what world you live in, but free to me doesnt mean have to back up and engineer space to be able to charge in safety. That isnt "free" by any means so you failed at your first point and i aint going all the rest of the stupidity in that post.


Also, its a bit strawman to say that I AM asking for buffs when i did no such thing. Id be perfectly willing to give up unfly and charged rc.hp and low cr.mk in exchange for a pw with better overall stinger core play.

Not a buff just a difference. Like fukuas changes... And I'm happy without ANY change to stingers. Its just that if i had my way, stingers would get changed for the better. I dont know what more to say. I certainly wouldnt particularly want the current pw with stinger changes, but if i had my way in an IMAGINARY WORLD, yeah pw would be more stinger based, and she'd need changes to her stingers to do that.
 
Mr. X said:
This meter gain convo looking like people don't want to acknowledge what Painwheel has that other characters don't. Let me get the equivalent of flight cancels.

Come up with a combo that doesn't use flight cancels and let me know what your damage looks like.

And with one overhead that needs a full charge to become overhead, the flight cancel is about our only mix up.

In short, we have flight cancel because without it, we don't have much else.
 
Mr. X said:
This meter gain convo looking like people don't want to acknowledge what Painwheel has that other characters don't. Let me get the equivalent of flight cancels.


I dont think spencer means or is even intimating that pw doesnt have things that other characters dont. We all know she does.

But... Other characters have things that other characters dont have as well. How many characters have sing? How many characters have airdash allowing for the easiest burst baits known to man? How many characters have command grabs? How many characters have cr.lks that hit in less than 10 frames? How many characters have double jumps? How many characters have armor moves that dont require charge? How many characters have runs? How many characters have multiple specials they can combo out of that dont make terrible meter gain?


You get the drift. Yes painwheel has things that no other character has, but other characters have that as well. And dont get penalized for meter gain for it nor do they get penalized with bad upclose priority.


Painwheel has things that make up for this now. But she didnt always have things that made up for it. And certain characters meter gain is still a sore point cause certain characters make a buttloads of meter for seeming no reason.


I dont want or need a buff to her meter gain but i certainly understand where pw players are coming from, at the very least.
 
About the Buer thing, they're kinda safe if you use the aerial versions right above the ground, but those are pretty hard to convert off of.

Edit: To be fair, I don't think one should really say that PW 'gets what other characters don't in fly cancels'. First off, she misses out on what ALL other characters get in the air, a double jump and/or air dash, both of which allow one to block immediately. Luckily for PW, another buff she's getting is the quartered unfly blockstun, but she can still be hit during fly start-up. Also, almost every character has a special cancel that makes her blockstring fairly safe or allows her to pull off a tricky mix-up. Fly cancels are cool, but they don't specifically let PW specifically pressure harder than other chars.

That being said, her upcoming buffs may change a lot of that, IMO.
 
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Not getting punished != safe. People don't punish shit in SF4 like q bomb and dp fadc all the time and that game has is knowledge spread everywhere. Getting away with stuff does not a safe move make, just like people who are bad at heavy combos don't make BB a better character.
 
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Things ive learned about pw recently though ive always been doing these things im more aware of them now:


Pw doesnt necessarily need a dp assist that she can convert off of when her j.mp is a can opener of a tool:


J.mp fly cancel on first hit into j.hk crossup, j.mp cancel on first hit into j.mk fast fall into throw/low mixups, j.mp full for the hitconfirm. And if you have a low assist, j.mp cancel into fly and call low assist on the first hit.. And same thing with j.hk.


With these mixups painwheel doesnt need to be able to confirm off of her defense. She just needs something decent that will gtfo for her while knocking the opposing character away so that pw can set up stingers and still have the gtfo assist available should the opponent decide to go right in again.


Having a defensive assist that she can convert off of helps in certain matchups, but i think that as good as beat extend is for her, brass might just be better.


You lose the ability to make characters respect your high airspace via assist, but you gain extreme damage combos when beat extend is used during your hitconfirm or even at the end of a combo. You also gain a move that protects painwheels attempts to get in. She can fly and do j.mk plus brass at neutral and if her j.mk wiffs the brass will protect her. Brass is anti zoning in a nutshell so those pesky peacocks are in for some tough times (i just played some extended sets with au's best peacock player who also has an incredibly mean filia) and yeah h brass cramps peacocks style in the extreme, its also possibly the games best counter assist, And finally brass even though it isnt THE BEST gtfo move there ever was, it still has nice gtfo properties. So all in all its just a super solid assist for any character but for painwheel it is super complimentary because of all the aforementioned reasons.

So yeah, pw is coming into her own i think. Not strapped to an AA assist anymore and more brutal with the newfound knowledge of her fly "unblockables" with filia cr.mk or squigly cr.hp assists.

I will still use beat extend for problem matchups such as val, but i think brass is all in all better.

Currently have an 8k damage universal midscreen combo for 1 meter iirc and much more damage than that is possible i think:


Starter is:

Cr.lk,cr.mk,st.hp plus brass xx fly j.mk,cr.mk,st.hp xx lk buer

Shit does horrendous damage and is easy to confirm.
 
If the opponent is flying off you're probably using M buer, you wanna use the L one.
 
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