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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

I'm failing to see how this is "extra range" Considering she gets that type of leverage from the upward momentum at any other point other than max flight height, it makes sense that she gets the same momentum at max height as well as anywhere else rising. This tiny bit of distance also is not game breaking by itself, as any member of the cast can superjump up to her to instantly catch up to her, same as before. She's definitely not going to be a "braindead" character either, otherwise you would be seeing way more tourny results from people not named taluda even before the change.
 
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It is extra range because the higher pw gets, the more range the fly upforward plus j.mp gets. This has spacial considerations like getting in against peacock or aerial footsies against other characters.

Also the height of effect is majorly increased for where j.mp hits on screen. With a normal retail j.mp the j.mp affects about 1 and a half squares vertically from max flight height. But doing up+j.mp affects around 2 and a half squares of vertical range. Which is a huge buff. And the horizontal range is increased by around half a square.

Im not saying the move needs to be nerfed or that it is overpowered. Im saying that it might be and should probably be taken to mike to see what he thinks.

But to say that the range isnt noticeable... Well... That is a humorous supposition to me. But i guess. And as far as elda winning more tournies/the only one winning tournies despite this change... Tournies are played on retail as far as i know.
 
What I'm trying to say is that she should have had this range from the get go. If you fly a pixel below max flight height, then do 8/9 jmp, the range is noticeably larger, even in retail. However, in retail if you are at max flight height and hold 8/9 jmp, you do not get the momentum at all. If anything, this is a fix on getting momentum on normals at the flight ceiling, something that retail doesn't have because it was broken.
 
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WarpedEcho said:
something that retail doesn't have because it was broken.

Yes, this is true that it wasnt available on retail for the longest time. But whether that was because of a glitch or broken is anybodys guess. The only person we can ask for the intent is mike.

For all the crap that mike and i give each other, i actually believe in his ability to make a balanced character and roster. So my main thing is im totally cool with it if mike is, i just dont know if mike at this point with all the other things going on like robo fortune and painwheels million and 1 changes already and other character changes, whether he even knows or remembers that it is like this.


Or if the way it is in beta now is the way it should have been from the get go in vanilla...

@Mike_Z

If im not currently being ignored... Which i probably am... Can we have an answer on whether painwheel is supposed to have her current higher than retail if you hold up at max height (in beta), flight? Or is it an oversight that needs to be fixed or balanced?

Someone else can @mike as well cause im probably ignored.
 
You aren't being ignored. He quoted you in the beta thread... I think.
 
Spencer said:
You aren't being ignored. He quoted you in the beta thread... I think.


He takes me off ignore for small periods of time after he quotes one of my posts, usually only for a day or so. Or he keeps me on ignore and just hits the "show ignored content" button after hes quoted me.

But its been a day since he last quoted me so probably back to being ignored.
 
@Dime_x
Apparently if you @ me I still get a notification! (That seems like unintended behavior, since it would allow people to still annoy people that have them on ignore.) I haven't taken you off ever. <3

Anyhow, there are two things here:
One is buggy script that just chopped off your upward velocity when you were at max height, that had waaaay broken math and also caused problems like flying while someone activated Sing. That's fixed in Beta and staying fixed. (I think it's still broken in Big Band's Timpani, I should check that again!) A side effect is that since she now has upward velocity you can do UF+button and get what you "should" get. I'm perfectly fine leaving her with upward velocity at the ceiling, that qualifies as a bugfix to me.

The second is the fact that I gave her soft correction, move down 1/5 of the overshoot, instead of hard correction, move her down the entire overshoot, which lets you fly a little higher if you are attempting to go up. I don't mind it, I think it's like 15 pixels? But if someone can make a case for why she shouldn't have it I'm not married to it either. The "fix" would probably be lowering her max height by 3/4 of the extra boost you get for holding Up, so if you want to reach the max height limit you have to try for it. MvC2 had soft limits, btw. The reason I did it is because if you fly when you are already above max height, instead of moving you down that entire distance in one frame, you do it gradually.

If anyone can tell me why Painwheel shouldn't have a thing, it's the Painwheel forum! I do appreciate that, credit where credit is due. :^)
 
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Ok cool. If you are fine with it so am i. I just dont like getting used to things and then having them taken away and i will generally avoid those situations where i can.
 
I will look into reasons for purely vertical runaway abuse, but I don't think I will find much. Like I said before, just about everyone can Superjump up with a button and hit her. That is unless she puts a hitbox in the right spot before they jump to challenge you. Which is exactly how it worked before this change anyways. If anything it was harder to do before since you got no momentum up so your hitboxes would be lower, making you guess at their superjumping that much more difficult. And if you guess wrong then you're just coming down with a button and need to take time to refly AND go up again, leaving at least 8 frames for your opponent to jump up and do something. I think it's fine, but if I find anything really abusable I will be sure to let you know
 
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I'm a brand new Painwheel player, and new to fighting games in general. I'm learning out of Spencer's excellent video guide, but I noticed that when I flight cancel from j.MP into j.MK during a jump in like he recommends, I end up triggering red sparks partway through the combo, since each flight cancel during the jump in advances the combo stage, so the first ground chain ends up being registered in IPS. Am I missing something? I've only tried it out in training mode so far, but I've noticed it's very easy to be in range to hit with the j.MP, but out of range to combo once I land, which I imagine is what the flight cancel into j.MK is for.

EDIT: The link to Spencer's guide borked the post formatting, so I removed it.
 
Jarius said:
I'm a brand new Painwheel player, and new to fighting games in general. I'm learning out of Spencer's excellent video guide, but I noticed that when I flight cancel from j.MP into j.MK during a jump in like he recommends, I end up triggering red sparks partway through the combo, since each flight cancel during the jump in advances the combo stage, so the first ground chain ends up being registered in IPS. Am I missing something? I've only tried it out in training mode so far, but I've noticed it's very easy to be in range to hit with the j.MP, but out of range to combo once I land, which I imagine is what the flight cancel into j.MK is for.

EDIT: The link to Spencer's guide borked the post formatting, so I removed it.

When you do Aerial > Flight > Aerial as a starter, the full 1st ground string (Effectively the 3rd string) is completely watched by IPS. This means you need to do a shorter ground string (I recommend cr.MK,s.HP) to keep yourself from losing too many buttons to the IPS.
 
Thanks.

Changing it up on the fly is beyond me at the moment, memorizing a set combo is about the extent of my capabilities, so I guess I'm limited to just not using flight in the jump in for now.
 
Jarius said:
Thanks.
Changing it up on the fly is beyond me at the moment, memorizing a set combo is about the extent of my capabilities, so I guess I'm limited to just not using flight in the jump in for now.
Or you could just make the combo you always do one that is not affected by the first chain being watched...
 
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Jarius said:
Thanks.

Changing it up on the fly is beyond me at the moment, memorizing a set combo is about the extent of my capabilities, so I guess I'm limited to just not using flight in the jump in for now.

That's why I suggested the cr.MK,s.HP string. The rest of your combo will resemble your standard BnB. At least it does in my case. I only really use one combo. If you don't feel up to it, just go into cr.LK,cr.MK,s.HP and do the end of your BnB.

Painwheel actually has the least amount of combo variation among the entire cast (At least it seems that way to me). So if memory ain't your thing, this character is awesome.
 
Krackatoa said:
Painwheel actually has the least amount of combo variation among the entire cast (At least it seems that way to me). So if memory ain't your thing, this character is awesome.

I'd agree with this. Once you have a BNB down you can do it from practically ANY confirm. Jump in? BNB. Throw/Air Throw? BNB. Any random ground hit into buer? BEE-EN-BEE. Not to mention Painwheel's combos are universal across the most of the cast so that's one last thing for you to think about.

Painwheel resets though? All kinds of possibilities and LOTS of character specific stuff. Mmmmm~
 
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I've noticed that in most different combos (the BnB I was working with wasn't the one listed in the BnB compendium, but it still holds true) the second ground chain usually starts with a c.MK, and that's where sparks always get triggered when I flight cancel in the jump in. Shortening the first ground chain to c.MK, s.HP wouldn't resolve that, unless I'm missing something (which I might be, given my lack of experience). Would c.LK, s.HP be better? If I just do that in every situation, like Mike Z suggested, that's something I could pull off.
 
Jarius said:
I've noticed that in most different combos (the BnB I was working with wasn't the one listed in the BnB compendium, but it still holds true) the second ground chain usually starts with a c.MK, and that's where sparks always get triggered when I flight cancel in the jump in. Shortening the first ground chain to c.MK, s.HP wouldn't resolve that, unless I'm missing something (which I might be, given my lack of experience). Would c.LK, s.HP be better? If I just do that in every situation, like Mike Z suggested, that's something I could pull off.
Your first jump in chain is free then the first ground chain or second air chain if you started in the air.

Chain 1: jMK [Free!]
Chain 2: FC jMK [Free!]
Chain 3: 2MK 5HP [WATCHED: MK HP]
Chain 5: FC j3LK [WATCHED MK HP jLK]
Chain 4: 2MK [IPS]

Off a double air chain starter, you don't need to skip the 2MK, you just start the chains with not 2MK after you use it.

Ex:
JMK FC jMK \/
2MK 5HP 236LK FC
J6LK 2LK 2MK 5HP 236LK FC
J9LP JLK 2LP 2LK 2MP[4] 6HK[4]
... OTG 236LK xx 236PP
 
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Skarmand said:
Your first jump in chain is free then the first ground chain or second air chain if you started in the air.

Chain 1: jMK [Free!]
Chain 2: FC jMK [Free!]
Chain 3: 2MK 5HP [WATCHED: MK HP]
Chain 5: FC j3LK [WATCHED MK HP jLK]
Chain 4: 2MK [IPS]

Off a double air chain starter, you don't need to skip the 2MK, you just start the chains with not 2MK after you use it.

Ex:
JMK FC jMK \/
2MK 5HP 236LK FC
J6LK 2LK 2MK 5HP 236LK FC
J9LP JLK 2LP 2LK 2MP[4] 6HK[4]
... OTG 236LK xx 236PP
Thanks, that makes sense.

Krackatoa said:
So if memory ain't your thing, this character is awesome.

It's not so much a problem with memory as it is that my execution still sucks, so I'm not able to adapt to the situation on the fly just yet. That will fix itself in time, though.
 
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So now another problem. I was putting your suggestions into practice in training mode, learning and modifying the BnB listed in the compendium, and I realized that I started triggering undizzy every time I got to the final ground chain, with no jump ins or anything like that. Since fortune is my main, I tried it out with her and noticed that her undizzy meter was also climbing alarmingly fast, although thankfully it capped out just after entering the final chain for her BnB. I had never paid much attention to the undizzy meter before, but I assume this isn't intended behavior.

I'm on PC, and it happened both in training mode and arcade mode. I haven't had a chance to try it in a match.

Ftr, if it's important, I made Skarmand's recommended changes to the combo; removing the 2LK from the first ground chain and adding it to the second. This is without a jump in, though.
 
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@Jarius
I mean you'll just have to post your combo or record it.

You can make plenty of combos that hit Undizzy, you just have to use lots of buttons.
Me or someone else can help you trim it down and 'optimize' it so it's valid.

If you're hitting Undizzy try using less moves in the combo (Take out a medium in one spot, take out a light in another etc, refrain from chaining LP > LK on the ground, etc.)

Also don't forget you can only trigger Undizzy on a /new chain/ while the Undizzy bar is full. If you start a chain at 239/240 Undizzy with Filia's 5LP for example, you can then use 5LP 5LP 2LK 5MP 2MK 2HP Hairball H xx Fenrir which will put them way over 300 Undizzy without actually triggering it.
 
Skarmand said:
@Jarius
I mean you'll just have to post your combo or record it.

You can make plenty of combos that hit Undizzy, you just have to use lots of buttons.
Me or someone else can help you trim it down and 'optimize' it so it's valid.

If you're hitting Undizzy try using less moves in the combo (Take out a medium in one spot, take out a light in another etc, refrain from chaining LP > LK on the ground, etc.)

Also don't forget you can only trigger Undizzy on a /new chain/ while the Undizzy bar is full. If you start a chain at 239/240 Undizzy with Filia's 5LP for example, you can then use 5LP 5LP 2LK 5MP 2MK 2HP Hairball H xx Fenrir which will put them way over 300 Undizzy without actually triggering it.
I just pulled the midscreen BnB straight from the BnB compendium, making the changes you suggested, and starting from neutral:

c.mk, s.hp xx L Buer Reaper xx Flight,
6j.lk,
c.lk, c.mk, s.hp xx L Gae Bolga Stinger,
dash, s.mp,
j.mp, j.hp xx Flight,
9j.mk, j.hp(3 hits), j.hk,
s.lp > Undizzy triggered

The rest of the combo is supposed to be s.lk, c.mp, s.hp xx L Buer Reaper xx Death Crawl. That wasn't lots of buttons like you said, that was just the basic combo.

Is this a bug?
 
cMK sHP xx L.Buer = 0 since Stage2
- jLK = 15
cLK cMK sHP xx L.Stinger = 85 ; 15+85 = 100
sMP = 20 ; 100+20 = 120
- jMP jHP = 50; 120+50 = 170
- jMK jHP jHK = 80; 170+80 = 250

Undizzy triggers if you start a new chain at 240+
So - no bug, works as intended.

You can however omit the cMK in the 2nd groundstring, to make

c.mk, s.hp xx L Buer Reaper xx Flight,
6j.lk,
c.lk, s.hp xx L Gae Bolga Stinger
etc

This means you use 20 less Undizzy, which would make you enter the last stage at 230 = Works fine

Even this changed combo is going to trigger Ud with a double-jMK starter though..
.. really not an issue though; no need to learn max length combos at all..
 
Jarius said:
I just pulled the midscreen BnB straight from the BnB compendium, making the changes you suggested, and starting from neutral:

c.mk, s.hp xx L Buer Reaper xx Flight,
6j.lk,
c.lk, c.mk, s.hp xx L Gae Bolga Stinger,
dash, s.mp,
j.mp, j.hp xx Flight,
9j.mk, j.hp(3 hits), j.hk,
s.lp > Undizzy triggered

The rest of the combo is supposed to be s.lk, c.mp, s.hp xx L Buer Reaper xx Death Crawl. That wasn't lots of buttons like you said, that was just the basic combo.

Is this a bug?
It's not a bug.

The problem is that you're doing 2MK as your starter from neutral which isn't necessary, or very good!
2MK is slower than 2LK so you don't want to use that one very often.

After that, your third chain
'c.lk, c.mk, s.hp xx L Gae Bolga Stinger,'

Is now longer, and that's the chain undizzy starts to build.
You added more hits (2LK), more undizzy, so it will burst.

It doesn't matter if you use 2LK or 2MK to start on the first chain because that chain is not watched NOR does it build undizzy.

Hopefully that's easy to understand?
 
The problem as Isa pointed out is your second chain. Look at the BnB compendium again, you are doing:

c.lk > c.mk > s.hp when you should just be doing c.mk > s.hp to start that second chain.

This is controversial and gets all the PWs into a screaming match, but you can also omit the first lk.buer. It adds like a whopping 15 damage to the combo and makes the the fly cancel link a bit more wonky which I'm guessing is why you are going right into your c.lk instead of c.mk (to ease the link).

So instead of:

c.lk > c.mk > s.hp xx lk.buer xx fly > 6j.lk

try c.lk > c.mk > s.hp xx fly > 3.lk

Feel free to add me on Steam, and I can help out though I've not been on much which is MikeZ's fault for mentioning that Wild ARMs was a dollar on the PS3.
 
Skarmand said:
The problem is that you're doing 2MK as your starter from neutral which isn't necessary, or very good!
2MK is slower than 2LK so you don't want to use that one very often.

Spencer said:
The problem as Isa pointed out is your second chain. Look at the BnB compendium again, you are doing:

c.lk > c.mk > s.hp when you should just be doing c.mk > s.hp to start that second chain.

This is controversial and gets all the PWs into a screaming match, but you can also omit the first lk.buer. It adds like a whopping 15 damage to the combo and makes the the fly cancel link a bit more wonky which I'm guessing is why you are going right into your c.lk instead of c.mk (to ease the link).

So instead of:

c.lk > c.mk > s.hp xx lk.buer xx fly > 6j.lk

try c.lk > c.mk > s.hp xx fly > 3.lk

Feel free to add me on Steam, and I can help out though I've not been on much which is MikeZ's fault for mentioning that Wild ARMs was a dollar on the PS3.

If you read back over previous comments, Krackatoa suggested starting the combo with c.MK as a way of getting around the fact that using flight cancel in the jump in results in the first ground chain being combo stage 3 or later, making it watched by IPS, which is why the second ground chain also starts with a c.LK instead of the usual c.MK. I was practicing this modified combo and nothing else because my execution isn't to the point where I can change up the combo on the fly, I just need one solid thing I can do every time.

This raises the question, though, if the (unmodified) combo already comes close to triggering undizzy, wouldn't using flight cancel in the jump in push it over the edge, since the first ground chain would be stage 3 of the combo, and contributing to undizzy?

Thanks for the help, all; I wish I could go into more detail right now, but I need to get ready for school. I can continue once I get home.
 
Jarius said:
This raises the question, though, if the (unmodified) combo already comes close to triggering undizzy, wouldn't using flight cancel in the jump in push it over the edge, since the first ground chain would be stage 3 of the combo, and contributing to undizzy?
Yes.

If you take a semi optimized combo, most of them will start the last chain at 230/240 ish Undizzy.
If you modify your jump in chains and end up starting your first ground string on stage 3, you'll have to make an adjustment.

This is less of a problem with other characters who have simpler jump ins (Bellas jMP slams you down, Fukua dive kicks you to the ground with jHK, Parasoul slams you down with jHP... ) but Painwheel has to use FC's and multiple air chains to reground her opponent sometimes if she hits them in the air. Like a Painwheel air to air confirm might be something like:

jMP jMK FC jMK \/ 2LK 2MK 5HP
(This is where you would want to omit the 2LK if you can, since this chain is building undizzy and it will watch the 2LK, also because 2MK does more damage than 2LK, and you don't want to scale the combo with lights early on.)

Now that you're starting your first ground chain on Stage 3, LK MK and HP are all watched moves now, and you're already building Undizzy.
That's something the BNB compendium combo obviously doesn't take into account, so it will cause an Undizzy burst.

Also just to clarify when it comes to using 2MK over 2LK:
You don't want to use 2MK it footsies and pokes unless you are punishing a whiffed move, 2LK is faster with a good hitbox.
You want to use 2MK in a combo when you've already got the confirm with a different move, so that LK isn't watched and you build less Undizzy, and you'll do more damage since the 2MK will be less scaled than if you used 2LK. (No reason to add a 2LK into a combo that doesn't need it.)
 
Ah sorry, I should have read back a bit farther. I misunderstood what you wanted.

Anyway, yeah you're going to possibly want different routes for fly cancel confirms, but if you're still learning the character, I wouldn't sweat it right now. Learn your bnb, practice your j.mp confirms, learn a few resets, and get used to how she handles in the neutral.

On top of that, if you are coming in from a flight canceled jump-in, an assist starter, or a throw... look to reset. Your damage is scaled to shit anyway.

Since we can fly cancel, you can threaten a reset at almost any time, and vs other new players, you should be catching a lot of people out with pretty basic xx fly > j.lp.
 
Try this one:

c.lk, c.mk, s.hp, L buer, fly,
6j.lk,
s.mp,
j.mp, j.hp(3 hits), j.hk,
s.lp, s.lk, c.mp, s.hp, L buer, deathcrawl.

it's very very simple and does ~6.3k, but should work from most confirms and gives you an idea of what most of her strings look and feel like.
 
Alright, so here's the combo I recommend in the video.
As you can see, it is pretty much what Caio posted above.

The nicest bit is it is flexible:

Optimal:
c.lk > c.mk > s.hp xx fly 3j.lk >
c.mk > s.hp xx lk.buer xx fly > 9j.lp > j.lk >
s.mp >
j.mp > j.hp(3 hits) > j.hk >
s.lp > s.lk > c.mp > s.hp > lk.buer > DC
7.3k damage

Throw Starter:
Throw xx fly > j.mk >
c.lk >c.mk > s.hp xx lk.buer xx fly > 9j.lp > j.lk >
s.mp >
j.mp > j.hp(3 hits) > j.hk >
s.lp > s.lk > c.mp > s.hp > lk.buer > DC
5.3k damage

Double air confirm:
j.mp xx fly > j.mk >
c.lk >c.mk > s.hp xx lk.buer xx fly > 9j.lp > j.lk >
s.mp >
j.mp > j.hp(3 hits) > j.hk >
s.lp > s.lk > c.mp > s.hp > lk.buer > DC
6.4k damage

It isn't perfect. It can be tough to land on some characters (replace the final lk.buer > DC with mk.buer > dc). But generally, it works out quite nicely.
 
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These look promising, thanks. I'll try them out as soon as I can. I was going to do it tonight, but I've been fixing a problem with my computer all evening.
 
Spencer said:
Since we can fly cancel, you can threaten a reset at almost any time, and vs other new players, you should be catching a lot of people out with pretty basic xx fly > j.lp.
How would I go about doing that? Resetting isn't something I've tried to do yet. I tried move xx fly > j.lp and it just seems to combo.
 
It depends which move you do before the fly cancel :

s.hp xx fly > j.lp

will combo, but

c.mk xx fly > j.lp
c.mp xx fly > j.lp
s.hp xx fly > j.mk

will reset high and surprise opponents who hold downback during ground chains.

You can also fly > j.lp right after a restand or a j.lp
 
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Like Bombad said, it all depends.

First try (anything) xx fly > j.mk. That is slow enough that none of your grounded normals will combo into it (I think). It is slow and pretty reactable (anyone have actual frames?), but it will catch good players out on occasion, and so it will almost certainly catch out most QM players. At the very, very least, it will give you a taste of resetting which is a big part of this game.

For example, you very, very rarely want to finish a throw combo, an assist starter, or a multi-hit starter (j.mp....) as they scale so bad that they give you less damage (see the numbers in my last post) and give your opponent a lot of meter (no bueno).
 
Spencer said:
Alright, so here's the combo I recommend in the video.
As you can see, it is pretty much what Caio posted above.

The nicest bit is it is flexible:

Optimal:
c.lk > c.mk > s.hp xx fly 3j.lk >
c.mk > s.hp xx lk.buer xx fly > 6j.lp > j.lk >
s.mp >
j.mp > j.hp(3 hits) > j.hk >
s.lp > s.lk > c.mp > s.hp > lk.buer > DC
7.3k damage

Throw Starter:
Throw xx fly > j.mk >
c.lk >c.mk > s.hp xx lk.buer xx fly > 6j.lp > j.lk >
s.mp >
j.mp > j.hp(3 hits) > j.hk >
s.lp > s.lk > c.mp > s.hp > lk.buer > DC
5.3k damage

Double air confirm:
j.mp xx fly > j.mk >
c.lk >c.mk > s.hp xx lk.buer xx fly > 6j.lp > j.lk >
s.mp >
j.mp > j.hp(3 hits) > j.hk >
s.lp > s.lk > c.mp > s.hp > lk.buer > DC
6.4k damage

It isn't perfect. It can be tough to land on some characters (replace the final lk.buer > DC with mk.buer > dc). But generally, it works out quite nicely.
Is that a 6j.lp > j.lk or a 9j.lp? When I try it out with a 6, I don't have enough height to get both moves off, and I notice in the video you actually perform a 9j.lp.

It says 6 in the description for your video as well.
 
I haven't had a chance to practice much yet, but from the little practice I've done, it seems all this will work. Thanks for all the help.
 
Jarius said:
I haven't had a chance to practice much yet, but from the little practice I've done, it seems all this will work. Thanks for all the help.
Feel free to make a training diary thread in the training diary section (beginner forum) and you can post all the personal problems, discoveries, struggles, and strategy related to you, all you want!

I'll be sure to follow the thread and help when I can.
 
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Oh hey guys lets talk again. My favorite thing in the new patch:

-Cancelling the ground HK version and air MK versions [of buer] to Buer Thresher now works for a combos against any characters
Huge buff. People have said for ages how good st.mk is as aa but now that midscreen hk buer into thresher is good on all characters that means that you have a serious threat in a pretty safe normal. st.mk > hk buer works at every range.
 
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