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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

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@Mike_Z Can we have chargeable Hatred Guard in these frames? 8D

I have a dream of like... absorbing a reversal raw tag, and then smiling at them before ending their existence on this planet.

Also, thank you for the Taunt. It's da bess.
 
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Im getting that matchup experience is crucial to pw but beowulf has been a massive problem. Most other characters im figuring out but i cant seem to find anything that can work on him and the hitboxes from his junpming attacks usually beat out s.mk. Is there any anti beo tech or strategy?
 
Though I have little to no beo experience, the primary thing I learned against him was to stay on the ground.


After that, if you are having trouble AAing him, look to using your armored attacks like st.lp and the heavies and st.mp since it autocorrects.
 
With chair armor blows him up free. j.hp>thresher or sweep + assist makes him have to commit to command grabs for anything outside of close-up. j.hp especially makes approaching with blitzer tough for him. Have to watch out for aa super but that's about it. Chairless is much more annoying since j.hp becomes a hit-grab. In generall I find it's a good matchup once you know more about Beo, but it's still pretty young, so who knows.
 
Yeah armor should beat the current wave of QM Beos that are doing little more than j.hp. Still figuring out chairless. I'm pretty sure that Beo's going to be fucking strong though.
 
Up+Back his jump in buttons. You have frame advantage.

j.LP,j.LK,j.MK air-to-air his chairless j.HP on prediction

Armor everything else.
 
Coming to a realization about painwheel:

I post this not to say I'm the first one to come up with this, nor as a way to toot my own horn. This is basic stuff that I'm only just now understanding. I assume that many if not all painwheel peeps already understand this and have more than likely understood this for awhile if not perhaps even the first time they used painwheel, this is just in case anyone hasn't yet figured this out, outside of a muscle memory thing such as myself.


There are many differences between painwheel a flight and capcom flight characters flight. I'm only here to talk about one difference though:

All of painwheels flight attacks UNFLY. This is already known and obvious. The point to consider within reference to other capcom flight characters is that not only do there attacks NOT unfly, but most capcom characters have moves that CONTROL THE AIRSPACE DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THEM in a high priority fashion.

Magneto has optic blast. Ironman has unibeam, sentinel has his frying pan and rocket punch. When flying at MAX FLIGHT HEIGHT though, painwheel really doesn't have a fast high priority move that controls the airspace right in front of her. And when you combine that with the fact that she unflys when doing any flight poke, it makes a lot of sense that she can't ACTIVELY control her neutral air to air with buttons when flying, like a lot of marvel flight characters can. This makes her feel very different to marvel flight characters... But im getting off topic.

The point is at max flight height, painwheel has few to no "real" spammable air to airs. She can control the airspace in front of her well... But only if she does a j.mp or dash j.mp.

If she tries to do this from max height flight, it won't affect much of the air.
So, this is interesting to note as a primary reason why flying painwheels are so turtly. We have no real way besides our movement to SAFELY control the airspace in front of us when we are at max flight height.

Which is the gist of this post. I like everyone else realised this at first glance at painwheel. What I didn't realise was... Why.

The why allowed me to further realise that painwheel actually CAN control that area of space right in front of her. But that she can only do it while flying at medium height flight. At medium flight height pw can up forward j.mp and it will control a huge amount of space IN FRONT of painwheel.


So my realisation was that there are actually attacking benefits THAT MATTER when changing up her flight heights at neutral.

Max flight height is good for:

Turtling via evasion and setting up an air to ground jump in for pw.

Medium flight height is good for:

Controlling the space right in front of her.

I don't know the full ramifications of this as they might be able to change up a bit of her matchups at least in my own game, but for the people that don't use the medium flight height pw fly mode, you may want to look into it if you haven't already and would like to be able to control the airspace in front of you while flying without having to jump.
 
Hey guys, y'all probably don't remember me but I used to visit these forums a lot. I took a break from skullgirls and have been wanting to get back in since it was on sale on steam and I have a shiny new laptop. I've been reading through these forums to see what changed and it's hard to get a grasp on what's different about her. Elda said a few pages ago she's the strongest in the beta but she feels the same to me. I know her cr.hp is an overhead now but is there anything else that's changed? For a frame of reference, the last time I played skullgirls, Painwheel got a unfly buff that helped her block or... something like that. Man it's been a while.
 
these are her patch notes from the Beowulf patch ( full patch notes here -> http://skullgirls.com/2015/04/skullgirls-encore-1-04-wulfpatch-notes/ )

  • When performed as a Stunt Double, Pinion Dash now skips the charge time, and each version is one level stronger.

  • Forward+HK hitboxes extended back towards Painwheel; it will no longer whiff against close crouching Squigly. Thanks to Fightman.
  • j.HP now behaves like a standard multi-hit high normal attack; the first hit that makes contact always requires high block, and any subsequent hits can be blocked as mid. Previously, the final hit counted as mid when it was the only hit to make contact.
  • Buer Reaper received the following changes:
    • Ground HK version now functions like other anti-air hitgrabs: it is unblockable against an opponent on the way up during a jump, the hitbox has been expanded, the active frames have been reduced to 2f from 4f, the super cancel window ends before the active frames, and it will not cause pre-block against a grounded opponent.

    • Cancelling the ground HK version and air MK versions to Buer Thresher now works for a combos against any characters.
  • Flight speed has been increased by .5/.5/1 pixels per frame in forward/back/up directions.
  • Flight Cancel can now be done by pressing any two punches, releasing any two punches, or holding any punch and pressing another punch button later. Thanks to Weatherbee.
  • Fixed a bug with Buer Thresher’s damage where the final hit could scale damage up if used late in a combo.
  • Hatred Install recieved the following changes:
    • Input changed to QCB+KK (214+KK). To avoid input errors, grounded Flight now has an additional 2f window in its startup to cancel to Hatred Install while remaining on the ground.

    • Removed increased Flight speed during Hatred Install, combos are now standard whether Installed or not.

    • Painwheel’s pulse effect now speeds up as the Blockbuster nears the end of its timer.
  • Buer Overdrive received the following changes:
    • Successfully absorbing damage using this attack’s Hatred Guard can no longer kill Painwheel.

    • Fixed bug where cancelling Pinion Dash into Buer Overdrive could cause an extra wheel to stay on screen.
 
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dMags said:
these are her patch notes from the Beowulf patch ( full patch notes here -> http://skullgirls.com/2015/04/skullgirls-encore-1-04-wulfpatch-notes/ )

  • When performed as a Stunt Double, Pinion Dash now skips the charge time, and each version is one level stronger.

  • Forward+HK hitboxes extended back towards Painwheel; it will no longer whiff against close crouching Squigly. Thanks to Fightman.
  • j.HP now behaves like a standard multi-hit high normal attack; the first hit that makes contact always requires high block, and any subsequent hits can be blocked as mid. Previously, the final hit counted as mid when it was the only hit to make contact.
  • Buer Reaper received the following changes:
    • Ground HK version now functions like other anti-air hitgrabs: it is unblockable against an opponent on the way up during a jump, the hitbox has been expanded, the active frames have been reduced to 2f from 4f, the super cancel window ends before the active frames, and it will not cause pre-block against a grounded opponent.

    • Cancelling the ground HK version and air MK versions to Buer Thresher now works for a combos against any characters.
  • Flight speed has been increased by .5/.5/1 pixels per frame in forward/back/up directions.
  • Flight Cancel can now be done by pressing any two punches, releasing any two punches, or holding any punch and pressing another punch button later. Thanks to Weatherbee.
  • Fixed a bug with Buer Thresher’s damage where the final hit could scale damage up if used late in a combo.
  • Hatred Install recieved the following changes:
    • Input changed to QCB+KK (214+KK). To avoid input errors, grounded Flight now has an additional 2f window in its startup to cancel to Hatred Install while remaining on the ground.

    • Removed increased Flight speed during Hatred Install, combos are now standard whether Installed or not.

    • Painwheel’s pulse effect now speeds up as the Blockbuster nears the end of its timer.
  • Buer Overdrive received the following changes:
    • Successfully absorbing damage using this attack’s Hatred Guard can no longer kill Painwheel.

    • Fixed bug where cancelling Pinion Dash into Buer Overdrive could cause an extra wheel to stay on screen.

Thanks bro, was looking for those. Now I'm off to find her beta changes.
 
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I know this has been discussed before, but I wanted to mention it again since Mike said we're pretty much at the last possible chance to fix any bugs, and I can't seem to find any of the past discussions/answers on it.

Sometimes when you throw out the Buer Thresher, if you hit the opponent on the later active frames it'll just hit them once but won't actually go into the grab animation, even on counter-hit. Was this ever supposed to be fixed or is it intentional to work that way?
 
also while we're on the topic why hasnt the weird cross up thing that works on lights after converting from the air super been fixed yet?

edit: not that i dont think its a cool piece of tech to have it would just be nice if it was possible to be able to avoid doing it but also be able to execute it when i want to.
 
MEXICO JUICE said:
also while we're on the topic why hasnt the weird cross up thing that works on lights after converting from the air super been fixed yet?

edit: not that i dont think its a cool piece of tech to have it would just be nice if it was possible to be able to avoid doing it but also be able to execute it when i want to.
It's been known and ignored because you can just not do the autopilot string and switch it up for characters it is strange on (Filia is one of them, right?)
I don't know the exact conversion string but an early L-Buer or cMP seem to work.
@Domo
 
What's the difference between beta painwheel and retail painwheel right now? Besides the voicepack of course.
 
I think nothing. Maybe a bug fix or something? But I don't think any buffs or nerfs are on beta.
 
I'm not going to lie, I do feel a tad vindicated. I was getting pounced on for saying she was in a bad spot... and she took a fuck ton of buffs and is now sitting pretty damn well balanced... dare I say... strong even.
 
Did install ever become useful for anything other than DHCs? It looks so cool, I want it to be practical for stuff
 
There are some other uses, yes.
 
In my imaginary fantasy land, painwheel's multihit normals do chip damage during install
 
Install can lead to big damage thigh I think its meter is better saved for threshers.

It is a safe dhc.

I use it as a hail Mary since you can't die while absorbing damage.

Better used on a team though than solo.
 
LaowPing said:
Did install ever become useful for anything other than DHCs? It looks so cool, I want it to be practical for stuff
yeeeeah i wish it was a bit more useful lol. but yeah right now its really only worth it as a DHC or if you're sitting on a ton of meter during a comeback or something
 
My dream wish is that it was back to +5 on activation, except the +5 hindered on you cancelling the last 5 recovery frames into normals, otherwise it'd be as it is now. Avoiding chip on wakeup would make for the illest comebacks.

You'd also be able to do things like "Absorb 3 Hits with cr.HK xx Install xx Absorb 4 Hits with cr.HK", so maybe it'd be a bit much.
 
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cr HK is only 2 hits of armor IIRC

I think its really only useful if you have a lot of meter. In neutral, PW gaining extra armor + faster stingers is nice, too bad she lost the extra flight speed but it does make combos a easier since they're consistent now w/ regular combos. If you're mid combo combo and have 5 bars, it could be useful to install for the extra damage in your finishing super.
 
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Me to if its true. I'm to lazy to check right now though so ill just take people's words for it.

Also, pw install is good for tag combos and one of the only ways she can viably start them:

Whatever xx L stinger xx install>tag to someone that can finish the combo.
 
and since it's sort of relevant now, heres the # of hits + pre-armor frames for each normal

1 hit
s.LP 3
c.LP 3
j.HP 2

2 hits
s.MP 5
c.MP 7
s.MK 7
c.HK 4

3 hits
s.HP 7
c.HP 9
 
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Yeah, c.hk 's strength is in how fast the armor starts up. It is still one of the strongest reversals we have whereas something like s.hp and c.hp need some foresight to use as a reversal.

One of the biggest buffs we got was making charged c.hk easier to confirm giving as a pretty fucking solid high/low.

Also, even though it is a long shot, do not underestimate the "can't die if charging while installed" portion of it. I've had some photo finishes with it... more than you'd think.

The first time you absorb a Squig divekick that would have killed you and turn it around for the win... <3
 
I've said it before previously, but with characters that have grounded armor normals, there is an easy option select:

Hold up back then press and hold an armor normal. If the opponent did a ground attack then you will charge armor. If the opponent did a throw or simply did nothing then pw will jump into the air and do the normal that you held.



This has theory fighter applications for offensive frame traps, neutral armor baiting in a more safe manner, and calling out low/throw mixups that are loosely put together.


This works STELLAR with robos st.hp/j.hp option select especially if you call out quick invincible assist like BE right before you armor.


It's best uses for pw are with st.mp since it autocorrects on the ground, has fast armor startup, and does jump back j.mp in the air if the armor never came out. St.mk also works well in certain situations and st.hp as uses as well when combined with an assist.

Remember that ground armor gets you out of high low mixup pressure for free sometimes especially if you call an assist to protect it. They kinda have to throw you, or use an armor breaker
 
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New pw tactic at neutral I've been having some success with:


Against people with good blocking that don't jump a lot or are predictably grounded, with pw at max flight height or near there:

Instead of 6 jmp or 9 jmp... do 3 jmp. It looks like jmp startup, but wiffs, then pw can land into immediate cr.lk and catch them slipping.


Works best when the opponent has been conditioned to block jmp high. This isn't a GREAT mixup. But it's another thing for the opponent to look for and works nearly as well as the double jhp fast fall. Combine that with all the stuff pw already has and it compliments the rest of pls stuff perfectly. I also like to use it to bait out AA assist calls that are called on reaction to pw jmp startup.
 
St.mp armor option select:


St.mp then on contact with the opponent press up and HP+MP.

The effect is that if the armor attack hits then input priority and stuff will make a jump j.mp come out and combo the opponent and allow a full conversion. But if the st.mp is blocked then only a st.hp will come out and you can react and flight cancel to safety, also, by doing neutral jump instead of forward or back jump you can confirm the st.mp on hit whether the opponent got hit crossup or not.

To make things even better, you can hold the mp+hp option select to charge the st.hp for armor on block if you want to.


Sorry if this is already well known.
 
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j.MP comes out instead of j.HP ? I always thought heavier attack means higher priority? Or are you "plinking" the MP + HP? MP~HP
 
Naw sg input priority is lightest to hardest... At least it is with pw concerning chains. Streetfighter priority is hardest to lightest though.

It's really easy to verify. Just go to training mode and do st.lp then hit mp and HP at the same time for the chain... The mp will always come out instead of the HP.

This is a big problem in certain situations, but it works out stellar for this specific armor option select.
 
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Holy crap more option selects:

Up back plus tag:

If the opponent did a low you will get rooted to the ground and tag. If they do a throw you will jump backwards and do.... Get this.... NOTHING.

And I have to check it right now... But with an input of tag plus assist, if you jump back and press tag and assist you get tag if you stay on the ground and empty jump back assist if you are in the air... I'll have to check to see which has priority.


-edit

It works but it's finicky on timing... Kinda just have to mash that ass off or no exactly where there low/throw mixup is and time the tag perfectly... Still something to consider but doesn't seem super powerful.

Might have its best applications against anticipated reversals. Run up, up back and tag. If they reversaled you tag through their reversal (hopefully) but if they did nothing then you just empty jump backwards.
 
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Triple post because no one posts here anymore :(

Im now convinced that fukua might very well be painwheels second best assist character. Almost every special fukua has, can be used very well by pw either in resets or at neutral or with pws st.hp xx (fly+assist) 6j.mk safejump.

M shadow gives pw some reset options and some good midscreen neutral zoning.
L and m shadows give pw some extra mixup options as well as some lockdown in reset situations.

Cr.mk gives pw some lockdown as well as a good mixup tool.

Hk drill gives pw some crazy lockdown and easy confirms.

Command grabs force jumps in mixup situations and are easy to confirm.


Fireballs give pw some great neutral zoning utility.
 
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Help me build a duo?

I've found that the only assist I want or need on PW is something that says "respect me at neutral".

I've found as a solo player that PW can very easily get put on the defensive and once that happens the game will spiral out of control fast without some lucky mashes/pushblocks.

Of course, now I'm stuck looking for the perfect character that can force respect, is someone I can stand to play, and can stand well enough on their own aka without an assist.

This is kind of what I have so far:

Beowulf: Hate him.
Big Band: Hate him.
Cerebella: Copter definitely forces respect. Isn't a reversal though, but definitely one to consider.
Double: Butt? Might be able to do some work if my PW game is on point. Don't think she'll be able to carry if PW doesn't hold her own.
Eliza: Interested because I'm of the opinion that Eliza is top tier. Can this work?
Filia: DP would be great. How would she perform as anchor?
Fukua: Not great as a second and only. Nothing that forces neutral respect.
Ms. Fortune: I keep coming back to MF. Aggressive angle on DP covers right where PW needs it. Solid solo character so she should work as an anchor.
Parasoul: Great DP. Meh as solo?
Peacock: Hate her.
Robo-Fortune: Needs assist from what I've been told. Would be a terrible anchor? Assist that fits the bill?
Squigly: Great for a lockdown/in-combo assist. Terrible for a neutral assist. Doesn't cover a single PW hole.
Valentine: Team stupid and redundant?

Thoughts?
 
"forces respect" is kinda enigmatic.

for dp options you have:

filia DP
parasoul DP
BB DP
fortune DP
eliza DP
bella DP


doubles dp kinda doesn't count, and well, neither does elizas really.

fortune is going to be your bets bet since you don't like band. but with fortune assist, you still wont be getting conversions from most game real situations. though the assist is still good as a gtfo, but with you losing solo damage for an assist you REALLY need the ability to convert off your assist, WELL. and only converting from pw grounded into a superjump jmp isn't "well" imo.


you will either have to play an inferior fortune backed team, or a huge weakness double backed team, or a huge weakness bella backed team if you want a dp assist... well you can also use filia dp and parasoul dp... I would suggest parasoul, but you will still have huge conversion issues.


an alternative suggestion is to just go balls out offensive and use an offensive assist for pw. something like squiggly cr.hp. you will have to learn to sometimes use the assist as a meatshiled... but oh well.


  1. basically you've pigeonholed yourself by not wanting to play band. you really don't have any GREAT options for assist partners without BE L. BE L is what allows for other assist options on a trio team, or what pws go to assist should be on a duo team.

double can work but has big weaknesses in the conversion area and the anti air area so you will have to adjust your play accordingly.
 
Dime said:
fortune is going to be your bets bet since you don't like band. but with fortune assist, you still wont be getting conversions from most game real situations. though the assist is still good as a gtfo, but with you losing solo damage for an assist you REALLY need the ability to convert off your assist, WELL. and only converting from pw grounded into a superjump jmp isn't "well" imo.

I'm actually not worried about conversions off of my assist. My PW can do work. I just need the space and time to be able to get shit done. Without an assist, every versus becomes a hardcore rushdown. Try a few games as a solo-Wheel and you'll know exactly what I mean by respect.

Dime said:
an alternative suggestion is to just go balls out offensive and use an offensive assist for pw. something like squiggly cr.hp. you will have to learn to sometimes use the assist as a meatshiled... but oh well.

This is what I ran for quite a while (Squigs 2hp). It is amazing in some match-ups, but the hole it leaves wide open means that there are other matchups that you will simply not really ever win. Squig 2hp is fantastic on a team of 3, but I just can't recommend it on a duo.

Dime said:
basically you've pigeonholed yourself by not wanting to play band. you really don't have any GREAT options for assist partners without BE L. BE L is what allows for other assist options on a trio team, or what pws go to assist should be on a duo team.

BE is super solid. Frankly, it would be OP if BB was decent. But I just don't love BB as anchor. I've seen too many people lose their games because you get to BB with enough life to eat some chip. He can spiral (as can any character), but he is hardly a reliable second. He's just a living assist that has the opportunity to occasionally luck out a round on a few unbelievably good (or lucky) reads.
 
Spencer said:
Eliza: Interested because I'm of the opinion that Eliza is top tier. Can this work?

This can work but after spending a lot of time with the team the only downside is that Eliza has poor assist options when pw is point. horus is great, i use him as assist and he fits well into combos but he can be a bit tricky to use. fortunately one great upside is that you can do charged cr.hk>assist which makes for great mix up and can keep people from doing armored reversals.

spiral gets to totally messing with your spacing and what not so i wouldnt recommend it. carpenters axe is also good but butchers blade is preferable. i havent tested the latter very much but if youre fine with consuming a lot of meter and keeping people locked down then butcher is a great choice.

Eliza is also a great solo. decent damage output, mix ups, and resets on her own and some nasty mix ups and corner pressure if you choose to do cruel lily as assist. Only major weakness is that in my experience parasoul will by far be your worst nightmare since she can exploit both characters tendency to be airborn, eliza has a bit of an easier time but, for me at least, pw goes down hard.

Also Parasoul can work as a good secondary. Fairly certain MMDS ran that team for a while and had good results but that was pre encore. i think it can still work and napalm shot maybe better as assist rather than Dp.

edit: just remembered that i have seen both elky and negus crutch cerebella's Dp and were able to maintain a really good paintrain. So cerecopter is definitely a good choice as well.
 
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LOL @Spencer

You think BB sucks? Haha, I wish. He only has 2 real problems, his hugeness and his inability to work well with any dp assists... If only he could use BE L assist... Lol.

Anywho. If all you want is respect and forced spacing without worrying about confirmation... Then the answer is obvious to me:

Bella DP.

Pw can actually convert it decently since it knocks backwards, but the problem is actually hitting with it. But I mean actually hitting someone with your assist/making them block it, isn't pertinent to them respecting the assist. At the end of the day Bella's assist is still a huge invincible hitbox. And the threat of it will make people give you some space.
 
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