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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

@Dime

My issue with BB is that his "options" are all unsafe reads. As a PW there isn't a moment on the screen in which I feel I've got a disadvantage. Unfly covers quite literally every single approach in. Vs other characters, he's simply too reliant on either them fucking up or landing a few of his high risk/low reward options. I think it is BB himself that keeps him off of quite literally every pro-team. BE is too good to ignore. BB isn't.

Bella horns is actually an interesting thought. I was considering her for Copter (team Negus). I never really thought of horns as an option. I'll have to think on that. So far I'm leaning MF(fu)/Bella(something).

@MEXICO JUICE

Yeah I was thinking BB for her. It sure as hell isn't a reversal, but it functions super nicely defensively once it is out. In my early trials, I had a super difficult time dealing with the lack of meter from using it a lot. Thesher (and the threat of Thresher) is PWs best defense and not having access to it as often hurt. Have you tried Eliza/PW? That seems like maybe it would function better than PW/Eliza?

Parasoul does work. It was in Evo'14 I believe. I don't know if Noah has added a third or not, but that was his team for a long time.
 
Haha, yeah I think most everyone uses BB in the wrong fashion :)

I don't see his unsafety because I don't rely on his unsafe moves from neutral or advantaged positions. My BB generally is all:

Air throw
Ground throw
L brass
J.lk
Cymbals
Cr.lk starter.. All these from neutral.

Sometimes I get a little A train heavy or h brass or even SSJ or BE heavy. But that's generally when I feel I have the read or when I'm under pressure. Which are situations that i feel BB deals with well whereas with other characters I have to hold that mixup... With BB I can disrespect mix ups while still shitting out tons of damage for nothing, while still having a decent neutral.


But that's me. More people need to use prodigious amounts of L brass it's a stupid poke. And BB can control its range by whiffing a st.lk or a st.mk to Kara backwards or forwards to increase range or decrease advantage on block.

Not that he's without his bad matchup and stuff, but he's just a really well rounded character to me, personally.


But yeah anyways, check out bella. She might be what you are looking for.

What do you mean by unfly covers every single approach in? I'm not getting you there.
 
i have tried Eliza/pw and i have to say that it does function much better, especially since eliza has the lockdown/mix up option that works really well with her pressure. for instance what has yet to fail for me in QM is calling cruel lily then iad>j.lk>j.hp. do this right and the crossup will get you a confirm almost every time. I think Eliza/PW would work better for you since you solo PW so its just logical to have her function as assist rather than point. I do the opposite since i solo Eliza better than i do PW and i like to have the safe armored sweep mix up option in case of armored reversals. The only major flaw i see with Eliza/PW using BB as Elizas assist is that it doesnt matter where eliza is theres a good chance that youre going to consume a lot of meter so i don't know how you can go about avoiding meter consumption and keeping pressure without having to use spiral as assist and force you to work with some awkward conversions.
 
Dime said:
What do you mean by unfly covers every single approach in? I'm not getting you there.

When you are trying to approach BB, fly about half screen into unfly. The only that that will catch you is the mother-of-all-reads airthrow. You have to feel it out as you're still always looking for Band to let you j.mp, but unfly keeps him so honest that many BB will end up freezing up at neutral letting you in for free.

Quite literally the only thing that makes me nervous about BB is that there's always that tiny chance he is mashing something out and if you fuck up or try a reset you'll eat massive unscaled damage. In a weird sense, I'm more nervous with BB in a combo than out of one.
 
Oh ok, you were talking about the BB matchup specifically... I missed that by the wording. Personally I feel like when I'm playing pw against band, that it's even. Unfly is ok but gets you put into bad situations I feel. Whereas when I'm BB against people I feel like I have an advantage. Unfly wouldn't bother me much at all because I would just dash air jump lk for pressure and priority air to air, and if I wiffed I would be in re jump air throw range. When I combine that with lots of double jumping I haven't found painwheel players to have great answers that aren't (don't be there) or call an assist or gamble on a thresher super.
 
When I fight Band I just zone him out with nails>unfly, you don't want the big man getting near you on his terms.
I still sometimes run Devil Horns Assist in some match-ups, but I don't find it particularly useful against BB.
 
The BB matchup gets much worse in lag, since you have to deal with invisible giant stomp. :\

Offline, a lot of the pace can be controlled with the options listed. Unfly + Assist Call let's you close the distance safely. My team is well-equipped to vortex BB to death if I get the hit. I find that it can be very frustrating to reset Big Husbando if you don't have some kind of assist cover.
 
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I have a question. If you want more damage in a combo and you have 3 bars. Is point's combo->dhc hatred install->hatred install combo and super better damage or just point's combo->dhc level 3? I guess assume all combos are decently optimal if need to. Or is it about the same?
 
Depends on the combo... But generally speaking it's ALWAYS better to any kind of a dhc because when you dhc you reset some of the damage scaling. This happens whether it's a level 1 or 3. I can't remember what the exact scaling is but I think it's something like resets back to 60 or 70% if it was below that scaling.

If it was above that scaling it would just use the higher scaling.

In your scenario though there are so many variables that you would have to test in in a combo by combo basis. Like, can you continue the combo but don't have an otg to use? Then hatred install might be better, but if you can continue the combo and have an otg left maybe hatred install will be better.

If you have no more ability to tack on moves then it will always be better to just dhc into level 3 because hatred install> install super doesn't do as much damage as level 3 iirc.
 
Hmmmm so I've got to test for it and it depends on the combo. I can continue the combo, but I don't have OTG because it was used in the Point's combo. I'm just thinking if its worth it in terms of damage to look further into more DHC Hatred Install combos.
 
From my limited testing i can squeeze out more damage with super>install>combo than full combo>super>pw level 3. It is also worth mentioning that doing quick point combo into super dhc install will lead to great damage on it's own with buer loops, then you reset. But yeah, really depends on your team.

With Parasoul i usually do this for a few reasons:
-Sniper shot leaves them in crumple state for easy combos.
-Like other projectile supers if you dhc before the projectile hits it becomes the first hit(s) of the reset damage scaling.

I'm also able to get a kill with 4 meters 2v2 off c.lk with combo>sniper>install>thresher>buer loops>deathcrawl, which you won't get with super dhc pw level 3 into more stuff. regardless, just the sort of thing you have to figure out.
 
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Also worth mentioning about dhc'ing before the super projectile hits, is that sometimes they are at an amount of health where dhc-unscaled sniper shot will kill, but fully scaled sniper shot won't. Learning when this can work lets you kill without having to dhc into deathcrawl, and install will leave you in a much better position for incoming mixups than deathcrawl would, not to mention DC giving them tons of meter.
 
NCV said:
-Like other projectile supers if you dhc before the projectile hits it becomes the first hit(s) of the reset damage scaling.
I actually didn't know that this happens.
 
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Is Painwheel supposed to be unable to call third character assist during charging cr.hk? I can call second character assist during cr.hk and I can call third character assist during cr.hp.
 
Umm... if I may... ,
can I ask a very scrub question about her unique charged attacks ability ?

First off : I'm NOT good at this game yet ( still too much data to soak in across the cast ) and I'm trying to learn the Nuetral aspect of the game and what decisions I should make / when to make them ( combos will be later ).

Obviously for beginners learning Nuetral in a MvC ish game with paper thin characters due to the combo / team focus it's VERY DIFFICULT to approach or experiment enough without some outside help so I'm kinda struggling :s


My questions are :

What are the proper uses of charging Painwheel's different attacks outside of a combo in a 1v1 situation ?
Which ones are better for which situation ?
How do I apply the " Damage taken being returned > inflicting greater pain " ?

I want to learn the character vs character decision making,
but I feel very out of my league in terms of knowledge in this game >_<
 
Using the armor 1v1 is basically you making a guess that they are going to attack with something that doesn't hit multiple times. If you notice they are doing a lot of single/2-hit strings against your blocking, you can use armor as an option to beat that. There are a lot of ways to think about and apply it but that is the mechanic at it's core. High risk, high reward.

There's also less riskier things you use armor for like getting through projectiles and assists.

To use the stored damage, you just have to hit them with an attack that can be charged after absorbing something. You don't have to charge that attack, you just have to hit them with it.
 
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I had no idea it could be stored o.O
That already changes alot for me, thank you <3

Does the effect get stored too ? ( such as the one that causes the enemy to " stagger " ? )
 
Stagger only happens when you fully charge standing hard punch, just like crumple only happens when you fully charge crouching hard punch.

You need to read the wiki.
 
Yeah generally speaking, armor can be used in certain situations where you would want to use a reversal style/invincible move. So like a classic example I use is after I block an opponent AA assist, when they use the assist blockstun to try to go in for more offense.

Another place I like to use armor is AGAINST my opponents invincible attacks... Like armoring through parasoul pillar as an assist or point and the same against updo.


Against people that block in the air then pushblock and try to come down with an attack (like after blocking and pushblocking an assist) I will try to armor through that.

Against people in down back calling invincible assist I sometimes like to cr.hp charge and blow both them and their assist up.

It is high risk high reward and if you get to predictable there are all kinds of things the opponent can do to stop you, but the point is that the opponent WILL have to do something different to stop you, so armor can actually call out and put an end to many flowchart style of offenses and make the opponent think things through.

Armor absorbed damage gets applied on the first move you hit with that has the armor property, regardless of if you charged it. Heavy attacks apply more damage than light ones. Something theory fighter you can do is absorb damage against peacock with your jhp charge. Then if you ever get in and confirm peacock you will do a boatload of damage on the 3rd hit of cr.lk,cr.mk,st.hp starter because the st.hp is the first attack that can add in absorbed damage and has the highest damage giver and is very high on scaling since you are the first attack in.
 
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The extra damage is a very nice bonus, and it can really skyrocket with a well-timed level 3, but you're not typically charging to build damage.

Since others have answered your questions, I'll summarize each armored attack. Each of them (well maybe not s.mk... seriously has anyone found a use for this?) has a purpose. They are a bit high risk/high reward, but that's PW in a nutshell (as a solo character anyway).

s.lp: You'll notice that we don't have a mashable, chainable light? This is our answer to that. It is probably the hardest charge to use effectively, but it can result in some pretty solid reversals.

s.mp: This autocorrects if it absorbs a hit which means it works great punishing stupid Filias spamming cross-ups. It is one of our anti-air options. Be warned, it loses to multi-hit jump-ins pretty cleanly.

s.hp: This can be used as a pretty solid reversal. On hit, it causes a stagger which leads into good CH damage. That said, the pre-armored frames are not insignificant, and so if I use this in a match, I typically wanted c.hk and was panicking.

c.mp: One of my two favorite reversals. It starts up quickly enough, has a tiny hitbox behind it, and is incredibly easy ton confirm off of. Squigly trying to bully you with her divekicks? This one is a game changer.

c.hp: This becomes an overhead when charged making a decent (though risky since it is throwable) high/low when paired with c.hk. It crumples on hit so you'll be able to combo out of it easily.

s.mk: I really don't use this, but I'll hold off on calling it useless until a better PW calls it useless.

c.hk: My other favorite reversal. It's a low and it becomes comboable when charged. You can combine this with c.hp or a fly cancel for a high/low. Most importantly, it has only a tiny amount of pre-armored frames making it a freaking fantastic reversal.

j.hp: Your only air charge, and I would argue it is your most important charged move too. 90% of the time, it is used as a reversal. Sometimes you'll let it rip and start your combo. Sometimes you'll cancel it into Thresher. Sometimes you'll absorb a hit, and cancel back into flight. You can do some cool things with this like absorbing 1 hit of Parasoul's great air priority into Thresher or taking a hit of Pea's air george to continue flying in on her (watch out for item drop). I'd say to over use this while learning so you'll learn when not to use it as it isn't an "always use" move, but it is a very important part of her game.
 
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My favorite armored attack by far is st.lp. I find it the easiest to use. Once you get decent with armor I just find it to be the most effective attack.

Haven't found a great use for st.mk charge that cr.mp doesn't do better. St.mk has a much better AA hitbox though.. But that never matters really.

Cr.mp charge is a really good idea for a frame trap to the pushblock. Things like cr.lk,cr.mp (charge) can be very good. I don't really like using the heavy charges at neutral. They have a lot of non armored frames versus something like st.lp. And they are also prone to being crossed up from my experience. I do like the heavy charges during block strings though for various reasons and also as resets since most/all of the heavy armor startup can be hidden in the hitstun of the previous attack.
 
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I agree with Dime. I find s.LP (or c.lp, pretty much the same) and c.MP really useful. My problem with s.LP is that the charging time is somewhat short. Sometimes I absorb an attack and the punch whiffs and that makes me sad.
The heavies are also pretty good to catch mashers and absorb bursts.
 
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Kyugetsuki said:
Is Painwheel supposed to be unable to call third character assist during charging cr.hk? I can call second character assist during cr.hk and I can call third character assist during cr.hp.
Hi looking for an answer to my question.
 
Kyugetsuki said:
Hi looking for an answer to my question.

Sorry kyu. I don't know and am to lazy to look because my current setup doesn't use assist buttons anymore.

If it is indeed not possible I would think of it as a bug.

Mike is probably the one to contact about it, though I doubt he'd care to much either unless it represents a big unknown bug.
 
Okay thanks for the reply. Just wanted to know if its a known/normal thing or not. I'll just report it.
 
Is there an accurate list of pre-armor startup frames for Painwheel's armored normals anywhere? The list I have in my notes, which I think was from an old Mike Z post somewhere, is:

Lights (1 hit armor): s.LP 3, c.LP 3
Mediums (2 hits armor): s.MP 5, c.MP 7, s.MK 7
Heavies (3 hits armor): s.HP 7, c.HP 9, c.HK 4 (only 2 hits armor)
Air (1 hit armor): j.HP 2

But I was talking to someone at NEC and was told that j.HP has no pre-armor startup frames and that c.HK had less pre-armor startup than any other grounded normal. If those things are right, is there an updated list?
 
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looking at the thing i'd saved, i was wrong.

cHK is just the fastest for that class of absorbable hits, jHP does have some unarmored startup

Frames before armor starts if you are holding the button:
s.LP 3
s.MP 5
s.MK 7
s.HP 7

c.LP 3
c.MP 7
c.HP 9
c.HK 4

j.HP 2
 
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Yeah the reason c.hk is good as a reversal is because it is only 1 frame slower than the lights, and it has 3 2 hits of armor so it doesn't lose to much.

Lights are going to be your fastest reversals, and so they have their uses, but I find them to be more niche, whereas c.hk is near universal... though there are other PWs that use the lights better than me like @ElkyDori .
 
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Spencer said:
Yeah the reason c.hk is good as a reversal is because it is only 1 frame slower than the lights, and it has 3 hits of armor so it doesn't lose to much.

Lights are going to be your fastest reversals, and so they have their uses, but I find them to be more niche, whereas c.hk is near universal... though there are other PWs that use the lights better than me like @ElkyDori .


CHK has 2 hits of armor.
 
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I saw you guys discussing a DP assist for PW earlier. i was thinking that PW / Parasoul synergy is pretty great. PW / Bella (Copter) / PW (NP) gives you strong resets, free pressure from any blocked j.MP, solid defensive options, strong incoming mix-up, strong DHCs

I feel like there is so much that is good about that team. Also Painwheel / Filia (Updo) / Parasoul (L Shot), which is basically Painwheel featuring WingZero's shell. L Shot lets do zone really well with M/H Nail + fly cancels, and it allows conversions from insane distances + gives you ridiculous corner pressure options. Updo is self-explanatory haha
 
@Spencer
Since we are now fully talking assists and not combos, I'm talking here.

I highly disagree with your last statement to rayn in the combo thread. Yes you are right that simply having a dp to do your defense for you is also a good thing.... But you really are going to have a hard time comparing pw with a dp to pw without one.


One is duo and has high defense via a move, one is solo and destroys people in one reset cause of free damage, one has high defense to better take advantage of undizzy as well.


Furthermore, the bigger point, is that if you look at pw with dp assist as solo pw... With a defense only assist, you have to realise that you paid for that assist with your health and damage output. You aren't simply a solo with an assist... You are a different character all together.

And finally, let's say that you and your opponent both have dp assists. You can't convert YOUR dp assist at all and your opponent can convert theirs 100%... Do you not see how that is a huge imbalance in the matchup, all things being equal?

You make a fair point that BB can be a liability compared to like filia or parasoul or even Beowulf or fortune, but to say that looking at it in terms of "can I convert or not" isn't good... To me is folly.

The reason is simple:

If we were talking about a game where no one could convert their assists into combo then I would totally agree, but we aren't.

If you and I play a game of duo against duo, and I convert 100% of my assists into damage and let's say that that damage... All things being equal, because we HAVE to count average following damage from resets as well, and your conversion rate for your dp assist is only 50% if we say that the damage from a dp assist averages out to 7k per hit including resets (probably low) then I'm in effect doing double the damage you are doing... It's like I'm working with a 7k bnb and you are working with a 3.5k bnb


The math, unfortunately, just doesn't support smaller assist conversion ratios unless you factor in BB as an anchor being worse than the other dp assists... But that remains to be seen and is up for debate. BB may not have as good a neutral as those other dp assists do... But he shits out way more damage and has way better meter dumps in general.
 
Dime said:
Furthermore, the bigger point, is that if you look at pw with dp assist as solo pw... With a defense only assist, you have to realise that you paid for that assist with your health and damage output. You aren't simply a solo with an assist... You are a different character all together

For what it's worth, duos actually get a net gain in health and damage it's simply split between characters. Factor in the ability to spend meter to push your damage further with DHCs and health regen on tagged-out characters, I think the health/damage fight goes mostly in favor of teams. The one big unknown is if solo is able to heal enough damage to make up the difference via snapback.

As far as assist conversions, I think that depends on the character. A character like Filia doesn't live or die based on her conversions. A character like Val does. I'm not saying that PW doesn't benefit from being able to convert from assists, I'm simply saying that she benefits more from the defense they give her. PW has fairly lousy built-in defensive options which is the reason a DP is generally considered necessary on a PW team. Whether you can convert off that assist is something you may want to consider (and a lot of people have picked up BB due to it), but it isn't the only consideration. Maybe having a MF on anchor is something that benefits your build a bit more than having a BB and being able to convert your assists.
 
What do you guys think these two teams? I've been working on them but I can't decide which is better for the long term, or which has more pros than cons.

Painwheel (H Pinion) / Double (M Bomber) / Parasoul (Pillar)

- j.MP on contact, call bomber, free mix-up. Can fastfall j.MP to mix-up their pushblock timing. If j.MP connects bomber combos for an easy fly pick-up.
- Safe DHC, damaging lvl 3 DHC
- Painwheel has nice reset options with Pillar and it gets pretty damn tricky
- Double can confirm s.HP xx Gun shot using H Pinion assist. Parasoul can confirm full screen L/M/H shots with Pinion > j.LKHP, otg whatever
- Parasoul + Double is one of the strongest pairings in SG
- You can also play this team Parasoul / PW / Double, for safe DHC and better zoning and a stronger anchor.

or

Painwheel (H Pinion) / Robo (Theonite Beam) / Big Band (L Beat Extend)

- PW can fly and control the air while beam covers ground. When they block j.MP the laser keeps them in place.
- Some ridiculous resets, and air confirms with the laser (you're often flying near the laser's hitbox so confirm is free)
- L Beat Extend allows Robo to combo off her throw midscreen
- With the order Robo / PW / Big Band, you have access to an incredible zoning team. H Pinion gives you *fullscreen* confirms from Robo's lasers..all of them. Cat head > call Pinion > LP Laser > Pinion hits > j.LKMK, dj whatever. She becomes a threat from super far. Also install DHC makes everything safe
 
The second team is team AU. I know CM really likes it. Not sure how Dime feels about it.

The first one is always a solid (though far more standard) team. Two DHC, Pillar assist. A while back Isa talked me out of Para as anchor, and I pretty much agree with his assessment. I'm not a huge fan of her on anchor. I'd pop her in as second and put Double as anchor. You lose the DHC on PW but you gain it on Para. I don't really care for DHC on PW. She's usually in until she dies for me, but she's always going to be my workhorse. Anyone else I put in is for assist and clean-up only.

If you're looking for filth with PW and Double, I'd just drop Para and go team Krack. You're looking at mutual DHC, amazing damage and some absolute filthy shit with Cilia Slide.

Anyway, my 2c.
 
@Krackatoa's team is PW / Beo / Double? If so I can't stand H chair as an assist. When PW dies BW comes in handicapped and I hate that lol

It's universally accepted by Parasoul players that 2nd is her worst position of the 3 (with point being best and anchor 2nd). On incoming Parasoul gets eaten alive. At least Double has a double jump (and sometimes teacup works if they mess up their meaty as it shrinks your hurtbox).

Now that I'm thinking about it, the best order may actually be Para / PW / Double. It parallels your advice and puts all the characters in spots where they're strong.

I think the Robo / BB shell is strong. This is where i first saw it, a JP player vs DeKillsage. Just sub in PW for MF and tinker around like I did, it starts to make a lot of sense why it's a good team.

 
RaynEX said:
What do you guys think these two teams? I've been working on them but I can't decide which is better for the long term, or which has more pros than cons.

Painwheel (H Pinion) / Double (M Bomber) / Parasoul (Pillar)

- j.MP on contact, call bomber, free mix-up. Can fastfall j.MP to mix-up their pushblock timing. If j.MP connects bomber combos for an easy fly pick-up.
- Safe DHC, damaging lvl 3 DHC
- Painwheel has nice reset options with Pillar and it gets pretty damn tricky
- Double can confirm s.HP xx Gun shot using H Pinion assist. Parasoul can confirm full screen L/M/H shots with Pinion > j.LKHP, otg whatever
- Parasoul + Double is one of the strongest pairings in SG
- You can also play this team Parasoul / PW / Double, for safe DHC and better zoning and a stronger anchor.

or

Painwheel (H Pinion) / Robo (Theonite Beam) / Big Band (L Beat Extend)

- PW can fly and control the air while beam covers ground. When they block j.MP the laser keeps them in place.
- Some ridiculous resets, and air confirms with the laser (you're often flying near the laser's hitbox so confirm is free)
- L Beat Extend allows Robo to combo off her throw midscreen
- With the order Robo / PW / Big Band, you have access to an incredible zoning team. H Pinion gives you *fullscreen* confirms from Robo's lasers..all of them. Cat head > call Pinion > LP Laser > Pinion hits > j.LKMK, dj whatever. She becomes a threat from super far. Also install DHC makes everything safe


Second team is indeed AU and one of many teams I used to run. I dropped it for 2 reasons:

The only person that gives me enough trouble out here to want to formulate a team to beat specifically, is cm and he mains val. val just jumps over beam for near free at neutral and then lands and does it again. Very hard to get her to block beam once she is used to the assist.

And the second reason was because... My robo sucks :)

Having said that, against everyone not named val or robo or painwheel, beam is an amazing assist. Simply AMAZING. Like just fly around with painwheel and call beam then jmp and profit. Nothing stops this shit except pbgc or not letting th beam make contact in the first place.


That alone is enough to warrant the use of the assist, but it also gives weirdo left/rights on air hit for pw as I'm sure you've noticed, but it also just destroys enemy assist calls giving you free time to mixup the opponent since if the assist is called while beam is on screen the beam will meaty the assist for free.


Unfortunately, the last thing is kinda day one stuff. If you use it to meaty assists, the opponent point can jump in front of the beam and take its active frames and allow his assist to come out. And "free" mixups is a misnomer, the opponent can block the beam then pushblock it and get autoguard into a pbgc opportunity. We don't value lockdown very highly out here for precisely this reason.


Still though, if you have a good robo, this is a fine team and Clarencemage at the very least and myself to a certain extent feel that the eventual best team in the game will be:

X/H beam/Beat Extend

It's a front loaded team, but it's frontloadedness is astounding, and it's other parts are still very good.


The second team is also one I have a lot of experience with as it was known for at least a small while as being one of the best teams in the game back in the early days of the game. It's a team that heavyjuggz used, albeit in a different order and that I mained for around 8 months, albeit in a different order.

The order we used the team was:

Parasoul/pw/double


But the strength of the team is that it works REALLY FREAKING WELL in basically any order, and that it is chock full of safe dhc.

But the team works great with double in front and it works great with parasoul or pw in front and anchor doesn't matter much at all since both parasoul and double can use painwheels cr.mp assist to very deadly affect against anyone that doesn't use pbag very well. Double can fleshstep crossup with it, parasoul can use it with her stomp or her fireball to get an easy lockdown situation into mixups or confirm. This is one of the best easy teams to use in the game.

I dropped the team cause val runs circles around it, and everyone in AU learned to pbag to make my parasoul lockdown mixups no longer as good as they were.

:(


If I could ever make pillar work well for pw instead of BE, I would still run the team with pw in front, double in the middle and parasoul at the back.
 
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Some great advice! I really enjoy hearing about earlier builds of the game and which teams were popular vs now. I agree, this is EXACTLY what it felt like. Para + PW + Double in any order felt good..and easy to use.

In regards to Val jumping the beam assist, well that's what you want to happen. You're flying and controlling the air with the best anti-air assist in the game (LBE), and you use beam assist to threaten the ground and train them to be fearful of it. If Val starts jumping like a maniac it means she has given up taking ground control and that's a good thing because PW is primarily an air character. So now you stop calling beam and just LBE to force her to either take it and die, or block it and PW does dumb things in the air. I can't see how jumping over the beam is a downside. You've conditioned them and now you have LBE to deal with the air, which is even BETTER for you.

I think for x / Robo / BB, with 'x' being a rushdown character like Val or MF would be incredibly strong.

As for Pillar working well instead of BE, my current team is Beo / PW / Para (with Pillar). It's obviously great for AA and defense, and the otg pickups are super free. But this video is what made me drop Beat Extend for Pillar. It showcases Painwheel + Pillar resets and possibilities. Also I think Parasoul is just a better standalone character with better neutral and safer gameplay than BB (and thus a more reliable anchor). Para / PW have great synergy no matter which order they're in, so maybe you should go back to pillar buuuddy :D

 
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