Painwheel tricks and resets

[bsobotka]

Self explanatory. I'll start with some cute stuff I found while Skullheart was down.

S.mk actually has a use for resets. S.mk > forward hk x3 fly grab works on everyone but Double and Cerebella. Though you can really only use it once because if you go for s.mk again its pretty obvious you're going for the grab.

 

[Daemyx]

Usually after sMP or sHK I do jMP > j.HP > fly down a bit > grab (corner only). It's kinda basic but it catches a lot of people.

And a cool thing that I found is that you can use fly cancel jMP to create a mix-up. If you hold 9 after the fly you cross up and can go for a low, if you hold 8 the jMP will come out and hit for a high attack and if you hold 2 you land immediately and can do a throw or a low attack. Mashing beats it every time thou.

 

[silverhydra]

Usually after sMP or sHK I do jMP > j.HP > fly down a bit > grab (corner only). It's kinda basic but it catches a lot of people.

And a cool thing that I found is that you can use fly cancel jMP to create a mix-up. If you hold 9 after the fly you cross up and can go for a low, if you hold 8 the jMP will come out and hit for a high attack and if you hold 2 you land immediately and can do a throw or a low attack. Mashing beats it every time thou.

Speaking of mashing, does anybody have anything they like to go for against people who try to mash out of combos? I've tried doing charged s.HP but that's pretty low level and I haven't thought about how to get optimal combo damage when baiting someone who mashes.

One trick I like is qcf+HP xx Fly > j.MK xx Fly > j.MK - in the ranges where the single HP shot can hit this is a pretty straightforward hitconfirm though I'm finding it hard to optimize Painwheel damage in general when I don't get the free jump in + ground string.

 

[bsobotka]

That reset after j.hp isn't corner only actually. And for mashers use burst baits. They're pretty easy to come up with for Painwheel since you can armor through the burst. For her normal bnb where the first j.mp comes you can use j.lk/lp then immediately charge j.hp then fly grab for a super easy burst bait. There are also some easy ground string ones you can do. I just change where the burst is every time if they're really bad and keep mashing.

 

[bsobotka]

I use s.hp for my peacock assist which is super good for resets (specific to my team but you can work with assists like it). One easy one is ......c.lk c.mk s.hp >assist >fly over. If you do it right the first hit will be blocked but you can make the second part of the cannon crossup. You can also use the same setup to do that then cross back to the original side etc. Its pretty easy to improvise them and just make stupidly hard to block setups with the assist and j.hk reflys.
My favorite resets are probably s.hk two hit fly grab and the s.mk forward hk x3 fly grab since they're so tight and cool looking overall though for resets.

 

[winnie]

Don't know if you guys already know this but you can flight cancel after the second hit of s.hk and air throw them before they hit the ground or go for a cross up j.hk.

I don't know if this works on the whole cast but its still a strong mix up.

 

[Negus Eyoel]

Don't know if you guys already know this but you can flight cancel after the second hit of s.hk and air throw them before they hit the ground or go for a cross up j.hk.

I don't know if this works on the whole cast but its still a strong mix up.

this doesn't work on the heavyweights. so bella/parasoul/double/probably big band when he comes out

 

[Stachio]

Be careful with flight resets. Flight itself is pretty coreographed and relatively reactable offline. You might be better off going back to the neutral, trying burst baits, or getting tricky with crossups + assist.

Now flight in combination with a lockdown assist... It's not a reset but it's dirty as hell.

 

[NCV]

Remember that armoring a burst still counts as the burst touching something, so the other person is invincible during the burst animation and totally safe afterwards. Still a good mix-up, just look at it similar to a hard knockdown. Just as well, apparently you can alpha counter from bursts, so absorbing burst with charge hp then flight might not be a great idea if they have a dp assist.

She probably has the most freedom with resets because of flight, and especially +assist. At any point in a series you can fly to x-up, go high or empty "jump" low/throw by doing flight>down+throw or j.mp. So have fun with them and don't get in the habit of being predictable with when you start them.

Lp stinger sets up a lot of interesting burst baits. From point blank you can jump/jump-back instant j.lp/j.lk to activate IPS and be safe from the burst, so you just fly and punish. With neutral jumps To get point blank you usually have to take a step forward then jump. Depending on the character you need to use different normals/jumps. This will good for mashers, depending on your opponent and if you've conditioned them into expecting resets after lp stinger.

For more patient players you can activate with st.hp and fly away, or with cr.hp to knockdown and do an untechable bait. Both are susceptible to mashing burst, and admittedly a little easy to see. Similarly you can activate with st.mp to and if they burst late they'll be in the air and easier to punish.

 

[Dime]

Crossover reset: I won't bore you with the specifics, but pw can crossup with j.hp wiff into hk scythe reset. Or hold j.hp in order to do a non crossup.

This gets even more dirty when combined with launcher into flight combos. Ie launch, airtsring, fly cancel, airtsring or poke into assist plus j.hp wiff over their head for easy crossup from the assist.

Canceling different hits of j.mp and cr.mp also give differing amounts of hitstun and knockup versus differing amounts of pushback, respectively.

So as an example:

J.mp (1hit) xx fly

Or j.mp (4hit) xx fly gives radically different reset options and timings.

Cr.mp (1-3 hits) gives no knock back on sde so they are very easy to setup fly crossups with, whereas 4th hit does give knock back so its a good way to setup non crossup mixup.

There are ALOT of things like that with pw and sg in general as far as move properties are concerned, painwheel just happens to take big advantage of these things since she can fly cancel.

 

[Nyagamun]

ok, got a lot of stuff
5HK (2 hits) flight, air grab...works on some characters standing, though I believe it hits most from an OTG/airhit
otherwise s.MK->s.HK(2hit) flight, airgrab should work on everyone (probably not double, can't remember).
s.HK(2hit) flight, crossup (air HK is easiest) (everyone but double cause she's ridiculously tall)
s.HK(3hit) flight, cross-under/air grab

anything-> flight...fly directly above them, call a throw assist and either throw yourself or HK, if they know you're going for the assist throw they'll either tech or jump...I'm sure there's a way to time this to catch them in jump frames. Most throws give you plenty of time to think on what to do :)



OTHER COOL STUFF:
air HK buer is unburstable, YOU CAN ALWAYS BLOCK BURST AFTER j.HK Buer...so anytime you end a combo with ANYTHING that allows for flight -> buer including:
with ground bounce available:
MK/HK buer grab, flight HK buer;
air super, flight HK buer

groundbounce not necessary
ground HK buer, flight air HK buer
any air normal or LK buer, flight, HK buer

use air grab to get to the ground quickly

air super flight air super works as long as you have meter, won't waste ground bounce if you're quick enough.

charged air HP and charged 236HP are great on incoming characters

USE FLIGHT EARLY ON MULTI-HIT MOVES TO THROW OFF PUSHBLOCK multihit moves are already somewhat difficult to pushblock, but if they try to pushblock a multi-hit move...they MIGHT get stuck out of block stun, which will toss out a move instead of the pushblock

I know theres more stuff I'm missing but I'm tired and can't think

 

[Nyagamun]

Speaking of mashing, does anybody have anything they like to go for against people who try to mash out of combos? I've tried doing charged s.HP but that's pretty low level and I haven't thought about how to get optimal combo damage when baiting someone who mashes.

One trick I like is qcf+HP xx Fly > j.MK xx Fly > j.MK - in the ranges where the single HP shot can hit this is a pretty straightforward hitconfirm though I'm finding it hard to optimize Painwheel damage in general when I don't get the free jump in + ground string.

depending on the character you can just stop the combo early with fly up or up back

 

[Dime]

Another "trick" I forgot about, works with other moves of the same type for different characters:

Cr.lk,cr.mp

Stuffs assists that people like to try and mash out during blockstrings.

In general a big multihit very active move accomplishes this, which is what cr.mp is.

 

[Krackatoa]

Another "trick" I forgot about, works with other moves of the same type for different characters:

Cr.lk,cr.mp

Stuffs assists that people like to try and mash out during blockstrings.

In general a big multihit very active move accomplishes this, which is what cr.mp is.

I found the opposite. Multi-hitting moves will connect on the point character, and hitstop will cause the next set of active frames to be so delayed, that an assist like Updo can actually sneak in between quite easily.

 

[Dime]

I found the opposite. Multi-hitting moves will connect on the point character, and hitstop will cause the next set of active frames to be so delayed, that an assist like Updo can actually sneak in between quite easily.

That's cool, but I'm talking in potentials. I stuff assists when I use cr.lk,cr.mk,st.hp around about 1 in 20 times the situation comes up.

when I use cr.lk,cr.mp that percentage skyrockets to atleast 50% instead of 5%... So in my mind that is about 10 times more effective than the standard starter.

I also see Val's use this strategy with her st.mp. Shin at proof was using it against me in casuals alot and it was definitely on purpose.

But yes, it isn't perfect. I wouldn't ever go in TRYING to stuff assists with these moves, more like using them "in case" an assist comes out, thus trying to hedge my bets as best as possible.
The best defense is always complete avoidance. But it isn't always possible so stacking avoidance with smart tactics is a better overall way to approach things imho.

Cr.lk,cr.mp,st.hp scales combos highly though, so it is a big consideration to make.

 

[Krackatoa]

That's cool, but I'm talking in potentials. I stuff assists when I use cr.lk,cr.mk,st.hp around about 1 in 20 times the situation comes up.

when I use cr.lk,cr.mp that percentage skyrockets to atleast 50% instead of 5%... So in my mind that is about 10 times more effective than the standard starter.

I also see Val's use this strategy with her st.mp. Shin at proof was using it against me in casuals alot and it was definitely on purpose.

But yes, it isn't perfect. I wouldn't ever go in TRYING to stuff assists with these moves, more like using them "in case" an assist comes out, thus trying to hedge my bets as best as possible.
The best defense is always complete avoidance. But it isn't always possible so stacking avoidance with smart tactics is a better overall way to approach things imho.

Cr.lk,cr.mp,st.hp scales combos highly though, so it is a big consideration to make.

I totally agree. I'm just salty because I've been hit by Updo mid-multi-hit a LOT.

Scaling isn't so bad if you're in range for LK.Buer and you're halfway to the stage. I'm losing less than 500 damage on that 10k 1 meter corner carry.

However, it does hurt shorter combos. It's less painful when going for full damage stuff.

 

[WarpedEcho]

I totally agree. I'm just salty because I've been hit by Updo mid-multi-hit a LOT.

Scaling isn't so bad if you're in range for LK.Buer and you're halfway to the stage. I'm losing less than 500 damage on that 10k 1 meter corner carry.

However, it does hurt shorter combos. It's less painful when going for full damage stuff.

I know that feel. damn invinc assists. outside of baiting an assist, would you have any tips for trying to get in during neutral?

 

[Krackatoa]

I know that feel. damn invinc assists. outside of baiting an assist, would you have any tips for trying to get in during neutral?

Bait the assist. :|

Also, I SHOULD be doing Super DHC Catheads on reaction. I don't. :|

 

[Dime]

Lol, baiting assist isn't the only way to deal with invincible assists. Throwing the opponent characters one of the best ways to beat assist mashers. Then there's use multihits like I said, and there's also esoteric punishes such as the dhc that krack was talking about... Just make sure the point character s put into blockstun or at least doesn't ave a airsuper cause you WILL get punished by decent opponents if they have one of those. But it's still a very good situational punish to now and use when the conditions are right. Good stuff krackatoa.

 

[Spencer]

Lol, baiting assist isn't the only way to deal with invincible assists. Throwing the opponent characters one of the best ways to beat assist mashers. Then there's use multihits like I said, and there's also esoteric punishes such as the dhc that krack was talking about... Just make sure the point character s put into blockstun or at least doesn't ave a airsuper cause you WILL get punished by decent opponents if they have one of those. But it's still a very good situational punish to now and use when the conditions are right. Good stuff krackatoa.

I have terrible luck with multihits (specifically PW's j.mp) vs Updo or Pillar. I find baiting is far more reliable.

 

[silverhydra]

I have terrible luck with multihits (specifically PW's j.mp) vs Updo or Pillar. I find baiting is far more reliable.

Air multihits aren't going to work in this application, I don't think.

 

[NCV]

Armor is also a good way around assist, you just have to 1. have reactions and 2. leave yourself the ability to chain into an armored normal.

 

[Dime]

I have terrible luck with multihits (specifically PW's j.mp) vs Updo or Pillar. I find baiting is far more reliable.

Jumpin multihits that hit higher up on the opponents sprite, for whatever reason, aren't that great at stuffing assists... It's the ground multihits that are all around better at stuffing assists... I should have said as much, but I completely forgot about thinking of PW's j.hk and j.mp as assist stuffers since I almost never use those moves for that reason.


I could perhaps time them to hit lower on the opponents sprite which would up the percentage of stuffage, but lower my ability to use jump pressure.

 

[Krackatoa]

Lol, baiting assist isn't the only way to deal with invincible assists. Throwing the opponent characters one of the best ways to beat assist mashers. Then there's use multihits like I said, and there's also esoteric punishes such as the dhc that krack was talking about... Just make sure the point character s put into blockstun or at least doesn't ave a airsuper cause you WILL get punished by decent opponents if they have one of those. But it's still a very good situational punish to now and use when the conditions are right. Good stuff krackatoa.

Oh yeah, fuck. I totally forgot about throws. One of the lesser realized defensive options.

Throws will get you out of those brainless Updo assist calls where they'll block and call assist, provided they don't time it right. Many don't. Identify the hole in their offense, if they have one, and throw/airthrow them outta that shit.

Painsley was trying to do crossup fleshstep with assist call yesterday, but he'd leave a small gap in blockstun, as opposed to what I do, which is call while doing a string, so I'd just grab him right out of the mixup. No fear, hahaha.

 

[Nyagamun]

regarding air HK buer, in hatred install, you can loop it for as long as you have meter, and the actual hit is burst safe
granted, it should be easy to break once you know about it

 

[WarpedEcho]

so I've noticed that if you cancel s hk on the first hit into lk buer, the opponent (depending on weight class, bella doesn't work for lk buer, so I'm guessing double is out as well, will test later) will land in front, but if you cancel into mk buer or hk buer, they land behind you. Do you guys thing you could time an assist for a crossup reset using this?

 

[Dime]

so I've noticed that if you cancel s hk on the first hit into lk buer, the opponent (depending on weight class, bella doesn't work for lk buer, so I'm guessing double is out as well, will test later) will land in front, but if you cancel into mk buer or hk buer, they land behind you. Do you guys thing you could time an assist for a crossup reset using this?

When I experimented with that particular string I found the crossup funny, but not useful. I hope I was wrong but I have yet to be inspired to try and actually find something... The buer takes to long to recover out of which leaves install crossups as the primary way to get the crossup to work... And I just don't find it that compelling at this time.

 

[Hilary]

Don't know if you guys already know this but you can flight cancel after the second hit of s.hk and air throw them before they hit the ground or go for a cross up j.hk.

I don't know if this works on the whole cast but its still a strong mix up.

Doesn't work on heavies.

A friend showed me this today, and it's an extremely nice reset mixup given the amount of time they have to react. If the person you're doing it to doesn't have an air super, they pretty much have to tech or they eat it.

 

[WarpedEcho]

So, a little theoryfighting here, but typically, Carol gets blown up for j mp by invincible assists. But I was thinking as a double player, by using j hp and fastfalling with a chain to avoid pushblock, you can similarly get hatred guard if you see them call an assist(napalm pillar anyone?). Also, since it take 3 frames for assists to start up (hatred guard jhp is 2 frames), you could armor through and keep your pressure going

 

[Krackatoa]

(hatred guard jhp is 2 frames)

6 frames, according to SRK wiki, but your point is still sound.

This kind of approach is better during Hatred Install, when j.HP has two points of armor.

 

[WarpedEcho]

according to SRK wiki

Ah man, never look on srk wiki, very outdated. I may be off, but I specifically remember reading beta patch notes where its startup was lowered significantly, to either 2 or 3 frames.

 

[NCV]

Well assists don't take 3 frames to start, they take 3 frames to start to start. And I also thought jhp armor is 2 frame start. And yes, armoring through assists is a good strat, nothing theory about it.

 

[WarpedEcho]

Well assists don't take 3 frames to start, they take 3 frames to start to start. And I also thought jhp armor is 2 frame start. And yes, armoring through assists is a good strat, nothing theory about it.

I'm talking about those 3 frames, it's when they hop on screen. What I'm saying is theory is reacting to the call (because most dp assist start up fairly quickly after those 3 frames), not just anticipating it.I guess you could say it's like an option select in that you can try to defeat pushblock and blow through assists if you want to cancel your multihit early, you don't even have to waste a refly. The other good thing is if they do pushblock correctly, you can just let go of the charge and lunge towards them for continued pressure

 

[Spencer]

So, a little theoryfighting here, but typically, Carol gets blown up for j mp by invincible assists. But I was thinking as a double player, by using j hp and fastfalling with a chain to avoid pushblock, you can similarly get hatred guard if you see them call an assist(napalm pillar anyone?). Also, since it take 3 frames for assists to start up (hatred guard jhp is 2 frames), you could armor through and keep your pressure going

So I was messing around with something like this today vs a Pillar assist. Using j.mp which is of course blocked (isn't it always?) into charged j.hp to absorb assist damage.

I will have to try it in game, but I'm not playing at 100% (recovering from shoulder surgery puts a huge damper on gaming), but it seems like it could work.

Reactions would have to be tip top, but it seems doable especially given how predictable invincible assist use is, but like I said, I've not tested it under pressure.

What happens is that you charge which avoids the assist, you drop to the ground almost immediately (the j.hp never comes out as it is too close to the ground), and are able to very quickly go into the usual chain (catching the assist as well).

It should work against any single hit assist like fiber upper, pillar, and updo (? not sure where this is since changes).

Concerns:
Requires more reaction time than I think.
Only 1 charge on j.hp, so if they attack alongside of assist, they'll hit you.
Spacing is fairly specific ie can't just barely hit them with j.mp. If you are too far away you'll fall to the ground without charging and eat the assist anyway.

Any of the better PWs could try it and get back? It would be great to have a non-assist answer to the invincible assists.

 

[Dime]

^^^ yes it works... And has for a long time, since sde even.

 

[Spencer]

^^^ yes it works... And has for a long time, since sde even.

Is the timing on it rough?

Why are invuln assists still considered the bane of solo pw?

 

[NCV]

Timing is easy, its the reaction that's the tough part. This isn't a magic bullet that makes her amazing. She still takes the damage and you still have to open them up. Just as well j.hp having only one hit of armor makes getting hit by the assist and the point something you have to worry about. Not to mention airthrows. It's really good, but also really risky.

 

[Dime]

A "trick" I just saw from an old domo vid:


Hitconfirm into block xx fly, then charge j.hp to protect oneself against those aggressive filias and what not that like to pushblock the last hit of fly and then go all airdash ham on pw when she's still stuck in fly mode... That's one of the hardest things in the matchup... Filia gets good pressure from blocking pw as well as just upclose neutral as well.


Another I guess obvious one, instead of canceling into fly on block.. just call your mk bomber assist when the st.hp is blocked, the opponent will run right into it if they were being aggressive.

 

[Dime]

Some synergies I've been working on with painwheels new stinger cancels:


Incoming opponent:

Always hp fireball and flight cancel, mix up the double call by calling during the stinger, or during the flight startup.


Timed right painwheel can do some crazy shit with this setup both midscreen and in the corner and it forces block from the opponent.

Neutral game patterns:

I'm really liking the above pattern as a keepaway strat versus updo turt... Er.... users. Engineer space and then do an hp fireball while calling double assist or cancel that into flight and call double assist on flight startup, and depending on what you see or think will happen you can either easily followup with an otg j.mp into fullcombo or you can immediately charge a low j.hp to both further protect painwheel with armor and also to give pressure to the opponent on assist hit or block.

This pattern also works really well with just straight up fly plus assist, but is much more dangerous that way because of the ability to be happy birthdayed by someone else's assist... So a protip: only use fly plus assist when safe or when the opponent has just WIFFED THEIR ASSIST, or is in some sort of other assist cool down.

I use it on assist (ie stupid yolo during neutral when the opponent has access to an assist and can blow this up) because it's damn good pressure against a grounded opponent. Also, it works REALLY WELL against dash up low throw mixups of any sort, but will lose badly to most of the high hits of said mixups.


Another good pattern:


Dash forward and charge st.hp plus assist as a way to go offensive against an opponent or use it on defense.

But why not just block and call assist, dime?


When blocking while calling assist, you are still susceptible to quick high/lows and you will be vulnerable to happy birthdays as well. But when charging armor, you are only vulnerable to throws which have there damage reduced forcing the opponent to use more meter for a kill or more resets, allowing you more of a fighting chance, and generally making it so that your next character or 2 characters have a better fighting chance to make a comeback cause the opponent will be low on resources... A good example is filia does hairball and breaks your armor... Ok cool. But she has to immediately go into super without having really built any meter, in order to confirm... Which is better than being hit by an assist into fullcombo or a normal into full combo.


Anywho it's something to think about.

The next pattern is both great and not so great:


Down plus assist macro, immediate up:

Call assist then immediately super jump.

This is actually much better than it sounds, painwheel gets high in the air so she auto has more priority with jump attacks, and it's a very good way to gain ground while putting big distance between her and her assist.

Just use it and I think you will find its applications good. It's very different from super jump then fly cancel then call assist. So play with it.

Another pattern:

Basic bait against updo users:

Engineer space, dash jump j.mp 1 hit xx fly plus mk bomber assist fly backwards.

A basic updo bait that gives you safe pressure while advancing forward.

Another pattern:


Fly.

J.mp as a jumpin attempt, call bomber just before hitting ground


If your j.mp wiffed, then bomber comes in and saves the day, also good when j.mp is blocked and they pushblock it.

Another pattern:

Should have listed this one higher... But meh:


Midscreen combo as a happy birthday, cr.mk,st.hp plus mk bomber, xx fly, otg j.hk, cr.lk,st.mp, j.mp bla bla combo into restand xx snap


Has much more corner carry than any other snap combo that i know of. If double isn't available, then just snap anyways, why?


Because its free corner with flying painwheel and double mk bomber uncrouchable lockdown with the opponent having their assist locked out... Ie EXTREMELY good positioning, maybe even worth more than just taking a double snap.



Anywho none of these are game breaking they are just "tips" that everyone has already thought of or will with enough time spent with the game, I only post them for those new to the wheel.

 

[WarpedEcho]

So, the entire st hk 2x fly resets are great, but I'd like to revisit the cancel into buer instead of flight. It really wasn't optimal, and hard to convert off of for a left right mixup, and required an assist to mixup. However, I have now found something that works the same way, AND is easy to use. On Cere, Val, Filia, pwheel, squigs, and peacock, you can cancel the 2nd hit into hp/mp nails and it will "teleport" them to the other side of your hitbox, allowing for a very tricky crossup. Since you can fly cancel out of m/h nails any time, this allows for a much faster crossup that will mess with their super mash inputs as well. This way, we no longer need to rely on the hk(2) xx fly jhk/jmk crossup reset, which is much easier to mash and jump out of. The great thing about squigs is that this works on the first hit as well. So a typical mixup would be st hk (2) fly, or st hk(2) xx nail xx flight. We will still have to rely on other mixups off of this for fortune, parasul, double