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Painwheel tricks and resets

Dime_x said:
A "trick" I just saw from an old domo vid:


Hitconfirm into block xx fly, then charge j.hp to protect oneself against those aggressive filias and what not that like to pushblock the last hit of fly and then go all airdash ham on pw when she's still stuck in fly mode... That's one of the hardest things in the matchup... Filia gets good pressure from blocking pw as well as just upclose neutral as well.


Another I guess obvious one, instead of canceling into fly on block.. just call your mk bomber assist when the st.hp is blocked, the opponent will run right into it if they were being aggressive.

So it worked kind of. I would dodge the combo, but I wouldn't confirm and just ended up on the other side of her with a tiny bit less life.
 
Spencer said:
So it worked kind of. I would dodge the combo, but I wouldn't confirm and just ended up on the other side of her with a tiny bit less life.


Then call an assist while you are charging?


What I ive been doing a bunch of is just playing like a little bitch with painwheel. Ie zoning them hard with j.mp variants and try and engineer something like j.hk plus cerecopter... It's been working out well till i have to actually use Bella.

Cerecopter also protects painwheel while she charges hp stingers.


Also I'm not using that j.hp after fly thing, well i am offensively, but what I'm trying to do is lay off the neutral game assists and concentrate more on blockstring assists.... With assist lockout it's just safer this way...

Which means that when I get in I like to 3 chain into fly plus bomber or copter... If they go ham after this they generally get hit. If you want to make it tighter, just call assist with st.hp at which point they have no ability to go offensive against your fly cancel.


Anywho I'm starting to think that spamming assist like Val and the double jumping runners of the game isn't ideal for painwheel.... She can't convert easily from mk bomber, and even cerecopter can be a pain (though much easier) to stop with that bad synergy I've been trying to just use lockdowns into her low/throw/high/crossup game cause I'm having really finding an assist that just WORKS for neutral game spam. I hit with mk bomber all the time, but no conversion is shit.


Oh, yeah, I mentioned this tip up there, but I'll mention it again cause it's really good: Dash j.mp air to air (opponent blocks or not) xx fly plus copter or bomber. What happens is they block the dash j.mp then painwheel cancels it into fly plus assist,, they land into the assist and painwheel can cross them up before they land, by flying over them. Be careful cause of mashy fools, but this is so good for me so far. If they happen to block its all good cause they are blocking a lockdown and you can still go after them. There aren't many ways to fuck this up from what I've seen so have at it.
 
Dime_x said:
Then call an assist while you are charging?

I rock her solo. :(

I'm thinking I might could do a j.mk buer quickly after crossing-up. Maybe a fast as fuck thresher? Either should make a Filia a touch nervous about her stupid air spam.

I'll have to check on those later.
 
I think I may have found another decent "bnb reset spot"

After any st.hp or lk buer, then fly cancel into up/forward j.mk as the j.mk hits or is blocked cancel it into fly plus lk bomber for a nice and easy crossup mixup. This can be reversal mashed so beware.

If you think they will reversal after blocking j.mk then just land and call assist.

If they try to hold up out of these they will get hit by the j.mk in prejump frames so this can't be upbacked.

Since it can't be upbacked it makes for a perfect place to get your mixup on with fly forward airthrow wiff land and ground throw... I think this beats stand block plus assist calls, and since it's a throw it will also beat crouch block plus assist calls.
 
Dime_x said:
If they try to hold up out of these they will get hit by the j.mk in prejump frames so this can't be upbacked.

Since it can't be upbacked it makes for a perfect place to get your mixup on with fly forward airthrow wiff land and ground throw... I think this beats stand block plus assist calls, and since it's a throw it will also beat crouch block plus assist calls.

Aerials don't trigger the prejump block cancel? O:
 
Krackatoa said:
Aerials don't trigger the prejump block cancel? O:
I should test that (chicken block), in game people get hit while standing so I assumed they were jumping. In training mode though I only tested against neutral jumping comp set to all block.

Though unfortunately for this tactic, my opponents that have caught on to it have started to just mash ground super.

Baitable but don't know if its worth it. Good if not abused I guess. I need to develop safer resets... Everything is just getting super mashed nowadays... Really annoying.
 
Dime_x said:
I should test that (chicken block), in game people get hit while standing so I assumed they were jumping. In training mode though I only tested against neutral jumping comp set to all block.

Though unfortunately for this tactic, my opponents that have caught on to it have started to just mash ground super.

Baitable but don't know if its worth it. Good if not abused I guess. I need to develop safer resets... Everything is just getting super mashed nowadays... Really annoying.

Should be beatable by flying into charged j.HP. Hatred Guard will let you absorb the first hit of the super and cancel into Buer post hitstop (Depends on the super).
 
Krackatoa said:
Should be beatable by flying into charged j.HP. Hatred Guard will let you absorb the first hit of the super and cancel into Buer post hitstop (Depends on the super).


Yeah, 2 of the options that I use off of it are fly df + j.lk (blocks the burst) but guarantees nothing so is weak in my eyes. And the other one is fly uf j.lk,j.hp charge... Better cause pw isnt in blockstun from the burst, but the opponent is still completely safe and chances are will just continue to mash super once they get used to it.

So the whole thing seems super suspect as a bnb reset point... I'm not into getting super mashed in the face or call the burst bait wrong and sith there charging a j.hp in the opponents face.

I need better burst baits... I have no good ones on the ground, which is where most of my good stuff is.

In the air i got plenty but have weaker resets in general since they are very airthrow oriented... Sigh.
 
Dime_x said:
Yeah, 2 of the options that I use off of it are fly df + j.lk (blocks the burst) but guarantees nothing so is weak in my eyes. And the other one is fly uf j.lk,j.hp charge... Better cause pw isnt in blockstun from the burst, but the opponent is still completely safe and chances are will just continue to mash super once they get used to it.

So the whole thing seems super suspect as a bnb reset point... I'm not into getting super mashed in the face or call the burst bait wrong and sith there charging a j.hp in the opponents face.

I need better burst baits... I have no good ones on the ground, which is where most of my good stuff is.

In the air i got plenty but have weaker resets in general since they are very airthrow oriented... Sigh.

Could you armor cancel into x-up Air.HK.Buer as an OS? You're covered by Assist, right?
 
Krackatoa said:
Could you armor cancel into x-up Air.HK.Buer as an OS? You're covered by Assist, right?



...its possible i would presume. Though being covered by an assist after the jl.k xx j.hp charge is hard in execution when i was trying it in training mode the other day.

If they burst on the j.lk, then Double will come in and completely wiff lk hornet bomber.


But the crossup option is intriguing... Cross up there inputs so they cant get out a reversal, after having already baited a mash with the burst bait... I should try it out and see how far i get but in all honesty it still sounds overly complicated and gives the opponent so many options... It seems like it would be good for reads... But not for mixups, if you catch my drift.
 
Dime_x said:
I need better burst baits... I have no good ones on the ground, which is where most of my good stuff is.
My favorite burst bait option is off a buer, go straight to st HK launcher, restand, then chain xx LP nails sweep. Either you get a hard knockdown or a burst, which is great. Same goes for undizzy, but isn't as nearly as good of an option since if they take the hard knockdown they get to keep the stun.
 
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But isnt the hard kd hard to take advantage of? You have to guess whether they will tech or not...iirc. If you try and chase the knockdown and they burst then youve gained nothing, but if they dont tech then you get the mixup...


I guess it could be good for letting the lp nail hitstun, decay then doing a dash throw as they recover or a late sweep if they expect the dash throw and try to tech?


Hmmm... Im having trouble seeing how the non burst side of it works unless you just go in and subject yourself to the burst.

That was what basically happened when my friend started to use hard knockdown burst baits against me... If i bursted and he was in range i get off. If not and i didnt burst, he got little counter play since he effectively had to give me space as i was waking...

But dont let me look a gift horse in the mouth... This is good stuff, any burst bait is worth it if it has a decent chance of success :)

-edit

I guess i should look at it like streetfighter:

A classic wakeup srk bait situation... I guess correctly that they burst (reversal) and make it wiff i get a huge punish. I guess wrong and they hit me with the burst i take basically no damage but am pushed back. I guess right that they dont burst then i have easy left/right mixup on there wakeup?

When thinking like that it does seem pretty good. Its a hard position to force me to take considerable damage from when i guess wrong yet i can do considerable damage when i guess right....
 
Last edited:
Dime_x said:
snip
.
I don't think you're getting the setup. They cannot tech at all, because if they press a button to tech, they burst. If you go into training mode and turn hitboxes on, just practice the setup by flight canceling the sweep while staying out of the burst hitbox. If done correctly, either you burst punish or get a free left right mixup. Just watch out for reversals on wakeup if they don't burst (obviously)
 
Dime_x said:
But isnt the hard kd hard to take advantage of? You have to guess whether they will tech or not...iirc. If you try and chase the knockdown and they burst then youve gained nothing, but if they dont tech then you get the mixup...
You can just fly over the opponent, outside of their burstrange. If they burst you win, if they don't burst you get a free mixup, always.

For a character like Filia you're right, as she has to commit to going in and you can burst if she does, but PW can just fly over their head and call assist with the proper timing.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
You can just fly over the opponent, outside of their burstrange. If they burst you win, if they don't burst you get a free mixup, always.

For a character like Filia you're right, as she has to commit to going in and you can burst if she does, but PW can just fly over their head and call assist with the proper timing.


Yeah it was filia i was thinking of when i mentioned it... Well thats damn good if pw doesnt actually have to commit yet still gets pressure or a free punish... Like super good.
 
WarpedEcho said:
My favorite burst bait option is off a buer, go straight to st HK launcher, restand, then chain xx LP nails sweep. Either you get a hard knockdown or a burst, which is great. Same goes for undizzy, but isn't as nearly as good of an option since if they take the hard knockdown they get to keep the stun.
Hm, I've tried to come up with a burst bait using sweep, but at least in training mode I found that an immediate burst would hit Painwheel's sweep in the wheel. Basically what I ended up doing is kind of the same thing, chain into QCF+LP, but then I do c.LK to activate burst, since that has a disjointed hitbox and a burst will always whiff. That kinda sucks if they don't burst though.
 
So for the s hk (2) xx m/hp nail xx flight crossups, I realized they don't work midscreen on any character out of a chain into s hk, so if you want to use it midscreen, you have to do a short chain like lp.cr mk xx lp nail dash s hk or lk buer xx Fly F jlk st hp xx lp nail dash s hk. Obviously with this route, you'll have to be careful about how you construct your combo if you want to try this reset, as the single s hk may trigger ips later in the combo. Another option is to chain into s hk (2) xx lp nail s hk/ short chain (if over stage 5) into s hk (but make sure the chain doesn't restand them before the s hk). This second option looks even trickier, I need to experiment with it later on the full cast.
 
Speaking of burst baits, a combo in the Double combo thread got me thinking about ways to use super jumps and I came up with this:
Just like everything I've ever done it's character specific. I only got this to work on Ms. Fortune and Squigly. There might be ways to make it work on other characters but if there are I haven't found them.
 
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I like the idea, but as a bait its really only good for mashers (which there are plenty of on PC of course)
The issue I have with it is that it doesn't look believable. The most effective burst baits all look like mistakes instead of deliberate. Anyone who isn't mashing will be able to see this one is a bait immediately.
But cool stuff either way.
 
I don't think that's that much of an issue. You can cancel the sj.LK (LP? They look too similar~) into Flight+Assist outside burst range and just continue pressuring if they weren't mashing.
 
So I found something interesting today. If you do an air Buer Reaper as early as possible after an air or ground throw it will cancel the throw animation and put Painwheel at neutral allowing you to do anything you want after a throw.

The game also glitches and stores your air Buer input allowing you for a short time after the throw to jump and press any kick to get an air Buer without repeating the down forward input.
 
Thanks for the find, Winne, but this has been a known thing for a while now lol. I use it in my corner throw combo so I can throw>st.hp>HK buer
 
good to know PW players keep secrets form non PW players :^)

Time to see if similar things like this happen with the rest of the cast.
 
winnie said:
good to know PW players keep secrets form non PW players :^)

Time to see if similar things like this happen with the rest of the cast.
It's no secret, Krackatoa has had it detailed in his combo videos and guides for a long time
 
Should work if you learn to use the airthrow reset that the j.hp sets up. But if not then its only good against mashers.
 
hlvn said:
Seems kinda obvious to me, but eh?
air throw/burst bait is a 50/50 so it doesn't matter that it is obvious.
 
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The only thing that matters is that you guess airthrow/them blocking, but they guess you right and super your airthrow. Other than that airthrow/burst bait mixups are probably one of the best mixups in the entire game if you can find one that acyptually works. The one i have is character dependent and the airthrow is execution heavy, but it at least works midscreen.
 
winnie said:
good to know PW players keep secrets form non PW players :^)

Time to see if similar things like this happen with the rest of the cast.
"secrets"
I am almost positive I showed this in the Painwheel walkthrough before the game came out (since I knew about it as soon as she was made) and I have definitely told people about it many times since then.
 
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I wasnt going to say anything since its whatevs but since mike has chimed in:

This came to light because mike told me about it in a pm and then i told the pw community about first in irc and second somewhere in these forums. Its been around for awhile. Krack doesnt get the "credit" and neither do i, mikes the one that broke this though others may of course have discovered it for themselves before i made it public.
 
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Mike_Z said:
"secrets"
I am almost positive I showed this in the Painwheel walkthrough before the game came out (since I knew about it as soon as she was made) and I have definitely told people about it many times since then.
Yeah. I got it from you, fo sho.
 
It's in like... every combo video I've ever done. lol

It was really important when throws became Stage 2. When combos got nerfed, it actually jacked up PW's damage a lot relatively to the rest of the cast.
 
Dont know where to put this...best in a "tips" thread i guess... But we dont really have one.

Midscreen neutral confirm using "MK" bomber instead of lk bomber:

J.hk plus call assist. In practice this is awesome against the computer as a confirm cause if they get hit by the j.hk even while painwheels jumping backwards, painwheel still gets the confirm rather easily, generally by doing a dash j.mp otg and the confirm from j.hk is ridic. If it gets blocked then its much easier to not be taken by surprise by the opponent ducking the second and 3rd hits of mk bomber for whatever reason... Probably because pw doesnt have to commit so early like she does when she has to ground dash for the conversion. Also, this is better than empty jumping away and calling mk bomber because the j.hk stops pw's backwards mobility, keeping her closer to the opposing character for easier conversion opportunities and there's also the fact that since pw is in the air while doing this theres less chance of the opponent crouch blocking the bomber in the first place.


This is different than just jumping with j.mp and calling bomber or even jumping in with late j.hk and calling bomber... This is early j.hk on the way up and call bomber....


For whatever reason this pattern is highly different from most other assist call patterns for pinwheel and simultaneously allows her to get out a high attack, a confirm, a high priority air to air and invincible move and long range lockdown all at the same time.

On initial testing this is better all around than j.mp plus bomber or j.hp charge plus bomber... Way way better.


So its something to try out if you have problems converting mk bomber hits from neutral at midscreen... Which is all of us, any time we use mk bomber from what i can tell.
 
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