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Poll: Are the Beta changes ready for prime-time?

Should the Beta IPS/undizzy/counterhit changes be implemented into the Real Game?

  • Yes! RIGHT NOW.

    Votes: 112 34.6%
  • Yes, but wait and put them in with Big Band.

    Votes: 54 16.7%
  • No. I don't like them / they need further work.

    Votes: 116 35.8%
  • I don't care. I will continue playing/avoiding the game the same amount either way.

    Votes: 42 13.0%

  • Total voters
    324
  • Poll closed .
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There will never be anything that keeps everyone happy, though. Make something that is good, and people who like it will play. If you don't like it, then play something else. This holds true for everything. If you don't like movies with Will Smith, don't watch Independence Day.

Not to say that Independence Day can't have fixable problems, just that the problem of "I don't like Will Smith" can't be fixed. Cause even if you give his part to Jack Nicholson, there'll be people who don't like Jack Nicholson.
The main point I was making is "Look for compromise instead of only trying to appeal to what you like". Which is totally what Mike is doing with this build. Combos in general are shorter, but not too short. Longer combos still exist, but you only get them on certain counter hits. This way, people get to enjoy the amount of freedom that the game gives you combo-wise, but both sides have more opportunities to at least get a chance to play.

I honestly just flipped a coin and it led to me voting for the first choice. I like MDE and wish it could've had a bit more life, though I also like the beta and feel that it's inevitably going to be integrated into the game anyways at some point in time. Though some things in the beta could still be tweaked a bit, like meter gain/meter scaling.
 
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you all just need to read the steam forums to understand why people wont play the game.
Because it's a fighting game and the vast vast vast majority of gamers don't want to lose 20,000 times to win once and accept that they're going to be absolutely terrible for a long while?
 
The main point I was making is "Look for compromise instead of only trying to appeal to what you like".
And I had a metaphor involving Will Smith. (I get your point, I just wanted to bring up Independence Day :P)

Also, while it's good to make reasonable compromises, a compromise isn't always the best solution. Sometimes it dilutes the pot to something neither party wanted. Not saying that's what is happening here, but it's important to remember.
 
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Gosh I never saw so much debate around this game since the DLC characters voting :o
Intense neutral game is mai waifu.
 
What will make people who actually play the game unhappy enough to actually drop it? Would the game becoming mediocre for the sake of "fairness" or "more neutral" (people's misconception of it anyway) be enough to force someone to drop it? I don't think so. Established fans always seem to accept it as long as they're eased into it (but I don't think they'll leave if the game stays the same either). 'Hardly see system changes going in the other direction for fighting games anymore.
Ok what? How do shorter combos make the game "mediocre". This isn't even an opinion thing, mediocrity is defined by the nature of other games which are not things that will change no matter how much you believe they have or will, so saying Skullgirls is going to fall to that level by restricting combo length and resulting in more gameplay that involves both players paying attention is going to stoop to the average standard of lower quality fighters is just plain incorrect. Let me give a visual representation of what happens when things change from long combo->reset->long combo to short combo->reset->short combo->reset->short combo:
bemEONp.png

Is that "Oh Mr Eagle, what does this mean" I hear you ask? Well it's quite simple really, as you can see it is nearly exactly the same, looking at what happens with the same number of resets but shorter combos clearly shows that at that stage the only difference is combo length. When you see the final part of it you can see that all that's happened is an extra one of those smaller rectangles has been tacked on. This shows that it's the exact same game, but with one extra chunk to compensate from the lost scale.

When you take this into account, the only advantages and disadvantages are the ones I listed previously, and even then some of them could be excluded due to subjective bias on my part, leaving very few reasons to think this change is going to vastly reduce the quality of the game any more than on a scale of preference, so (in simpler, more concise words) whether you like or dislike it will be entirely based on your opinion, and not if the game is actually 'good' or 'bad'.
 
Short combos
Pros - Less time spent watching a combo video in every match and therefore more time spent doing neutral/mixups/resets
Cons - Less versatility for possible resets, less styling on your opponent during a match

For me the pros far outweigh the cons.
 
you all just need to read the steam forums to understand why people wont play the game.
Because they are too lazy to learn? Because after 5 seconds they couldn't win so its "too hard"?

As a long time street fighter player, if I wanted short combos I'd go back to AE 2012. I have hardly touched AE since SG PC got released because I find it more fun. If this change happens I'm personally just going back to it.

I play this game because of the long combos. I don't need another SF4.
 
I personally love the PC build and I wish we could just stay with that. I know people complain about long combos(I love them), but the thing is people are STILL gonna complain about the game whether it's dying from long combos or dying from to many resets. Some people who dislike the game isn't even because of long combos, but because of the art style and you can't change that. All I'm saying is I know Mike wants to make this game for everybody, but this game isn't for everybody, so if people are gonna complain about "long combos" they can go to the lab and train to become better(like me) or play another game.

I just want to stay with the build we have on PC(NOT BETA).
 
Bcause of infinites that don't exist and because resets are strong basically. Oh, and because the game isn't like KoF or street fighter.

You're right in that it is laughable, but it is certainly a good metric for how new players view the game ie the combos are super long.
 
Because it's a fighting game and the vast vast vast majority of gamers don't want to lose 20,000 times to win once and accept that they're going to be absolutely terrible for a long while?

Yo I am just going quote this cause it's the truth. I'm ok with losing 20,000 times if it means I'll eventually get better. I don't get mad when I'm perfected. Most people aren't like me or any of you guys who put are willing to put up with that to get better. Icky is just throwing that out there.
 
Because they are too lazy to learn? Because after 5 seconds they couldn't win so its "too hard"?

As a long time street fighter player, if I wanted short combos I'd go back to AE 2012. I have hardly touched AE since SG PC got released because I find it more fun. If this change happens I'm personally just going back to it.

I play this game because of the long combos. I don't need another SF4.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think the combos in the current beta are particularly short. They're still upwards of 6 chains long and I think that's just about right.
 
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Yo I am just going quote this cause it's the truth. I'm ok with losing 20,000 times if it means I'll eventually get better. I don't get mad when I'm perfected. Most people aren't like me or any of you guys who put are willing to put up with that to get better. Icky is just throwing that out there.

I don't know that it is entirely true. People don't want to lose 1000 times while feeling like they have zero options. You can see this in other hard to learn games. Dota, LoL, or SC2. This is why a good ladder or matchmaking system is awesome for newer players. You are likely to learn a lot more doing some back and forth.

I learned SG by persevering through the "one (confirm) and done" matches (didn't learn shit from being cornered and crushed) and getting to the roughly equally skilled matches(within a range, obviously).

It is a lot to expect out of a newer player.
 
Its like people either want this game to be ST or marvel 3. Let's just make skullgirls? The combos in this game are easy relative to any other game that has combos, the length with the new undizzy is good and I think this game can survive another overhaul. I want this patch to happen but I don't know how badly it will hurt the consoles.
 
To be perfectly honest, I don't think the combos in the current beta are particularly short. They're still upwards of 6 chains long and I think that's just about right.
In a game that I was told is based off marvel 2, they may as well be 6 hit combos.
 
In a game that I was told is based off marvel 2, they may as well be 6 hit combos.
"Based off" and "Clone" are two different things.
 
1. As to if shorter combos will bring in more players, yes it would. A lot of people will stay away for other reasons (small roster, indie game, all girls for now, etc) however many have said that the obscene combo length is what keeps them away from the game despite loving the chracters and look. I posted a thread on SRK advertising the sale and free to play this weekend and the feedback I got also confirmed this. This isn't just imaginary mind reading about thinking what people would or wouldn't do, this is people actually saying long combos are keeping them from playing the game. You could check SRK if u want to confirm.

2. True most people who are new or bad to the game will still die in one touch, just getting resetted to death. However whenever I get reset I get mad at myself, not the system. Cause I had a chance, and blew it. However getting comboed for 20 seconds with no chance to escape is frustrating, cause well I'm not playing the game, I'm watching the game. I don't mind if it takes a couple resets, and I die in one touch. Sure it isn't pleasant, but I had my opportunities and failed. In short the more resets needed to kill=Less one player.
 
"Based off" and "Clone" are two different things.
Regardless if its based off it why would you make the combo system so much different? It will never be a clone and many games share long combo systems. Making it have long combos does not make it a clone.
 
Well, this discussion is going circles. It seems things are pretty split on Yes's and No's. Maybe we just let the beta be it's own thing for awhile since people seem very divided on it. Eh, don't really mind either way.
dizzy23tp1ulys2.gif
 
My problem is not the long/short combos, because I simply don't care about that. I just want a stable version in which my combos work, all my combos end up in bursts and if I start learning new combos now, there is a possibility that this new version will come out and I will have to learn combos again.

That is pretty much my only reason coming from a mediocre player at best.
 
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Shorter combos does not mean more neutral, it just means more resets/oki. I still don't understand why people think shorter combos = more time spent in the neutral game. New players will still get overwhelmed by w.e. better players throw at them and lose 100+ times before winning once.
 
My problem is not the long/short combos, because I simply don't care about that. I just want a stable version in which my combos work, all my combos end up in bursts and if I start learning new combos now, there is a possibility that this new version will come out and I will have to learn combos again.

That is pretty much my only reason coming from a mediocre player at best.

I'm a fan of long combos, but this is pretty much my problem with the undizzy. Part of it was just a sort of shock of going into training and realizing that ALL of my parasoul combos burst halfway through. I can try and adapt, but I really don't want this to happen more than once and force me to rethink my whole set up again.

EDIT: Also, is there/will there be an option to see the Undizzy meter in training?
 
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snip

That bar for "original" should be longer. But not just from combo length per se (yeah I like the freedom and creativity involved for people styling on someone else... especially Val players. So what?), but the resulting damage as well. Depending on meter/resources used you'd be closer to losing 2/3 - 100% in MDE (SDE had 100% tag combos for no meter. I'm not talking about that. That's been addressed). You would be a lot closer to dead and under a lot more pressure to do something about it. You have to get out, properly defend, get a real opening to put the opponent under that same pressure, do something... or you're dead. But all hope is not lost. You have other team mates and/or much more meter at your disposal, so as long as you're smart with it you can turn it around.

This is just personal preference (particularly for team-based fighting games), but I like FAT damage within less decisions and the weight behind knowing if you make a wrong move, you could be at a horrible life deficit or dead. You have to "pay attention" right from the getgo. I also like the pressure on the attacker for pulling it off (this system is perceived as one of the simpler ones, but stuff like nerves, health, positioning, weight classes, remaining time in the match and meter will still come into play in a real match). Watering that down so people can have more of a chance to make bad decisions and I have to put up with their dumb characters longer is not very enticing to me/not satisfying i.e. mediocre.
Especially when you and some others disclosed you were not outputting that much damage in the first place. Great, so you can continue to play as you were before while I know (while you're still alive on the screen and probably not in as much danger of dying... running away with back airdash HP and/or tagging) that I could've killed you sooner in MDE/you may have not gotten away. I'm on the losing side of that "compromise". Guess I gotta let them live and try more resets as people mash out their super freeze hitstop BS. Fun... >_>

The only benefit to me is that other people capable of killing in less decisions in MDE will have a harder time doing that to me... but again I said I like that weight and being forced to make decisions with more purpose. It didn't bother me and I still feel MDE's conditions were fair in that regard. And it's funny because even after the changes in the beta making it as low as it is, people are still fucking complaining for it to be lower... just like I predicted.

Seriously, how much of a chance to you want for one of your characters to stay alive before you have to be smarter about not getting hit? Minimum of 3 openings per character? 4 openings.... 5?
 
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Shorter combos does not mean more neutral, it just means more resets/oki. I still don't understand why people think shorter combos = more time spent in the neutral game. New players will still get overwhelmed by w.e. better players throw at them and lose 100+ times before winning once.

The line of thinking goes as follows:

Shorter combos means more reset/oki.

More reset/oki means more opportunities to slip out.

More opportunities to get out of a beat down means more neutral.

I'll double down and say that not only is that the line of thinking, but judging by the two, hour-long videos I saw, it is working.
 
Spencer summed it up perfectly. More neutral, or at least assist neutral. It's not about winning or losing it's about making the game less one player which is always good for a competitive game. BTW love the assist nerf too.
 
snipped
I'm kinda struggling to see your point here, but it sounds like you're saying "don't let other players hit you even once" in a game where you can confirm off of invulnerable assists and reversals (which is just plain silly), then that you prefer not having to make decisions (which, ok, it's your opinion, but it kind of defeats the idea behind the competitive nature of fighting games), and then you're saying that you like long combos (which is fine as that is an opinion and I have no power that let's me tell you that is wrong) followed by saying unenjoyable=mediocre (which is incorrect).
 
I mentioned SRK and the thread I made...while some of the complaints were peoples' perception it is a MVC2 clone, or why play when there is MVC3? Some were about combo length, a few quotes.

"Also before buying the game look up some BnBs, some people don't want to learn 20-40 input combos."

"I think it's cool game with awesome characters, but this is why I don't play it."

Anyways so the general perception about Skullgirls from the outside is

1. It is a MVC2 clone
2. It is all about super long TOD combos.

You are delusional if you think this doesn't hurt sales.
 
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It doesn't help that a lot of people on launch will have seen the long long long crazy stuff (*cough*fortune*cough*) and never looked at it again.
 
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The only thing I'd really like to see changed is counterhit assists doing 90% combos- should be closer to regular assist combo start. This gives an advantage to the usual invincible assists we see used all the time as their invincible status usually leads to counterhit. The assist starter nerf worked really well against reliance on updo etc but now that it's 90% I don't expect as big a decrease against assist spam
 
The only thing I'd really like to see changed is counterhit assists doing 90% combos- should be closer to regular assist combo start. This gives an advantage to the usual invincible assists we see used all the time as their invincible status usually leads to counterhit. The assist starter nerf worked really well against reliance on updo etc but now that it's 90% I don't expect as big a decrease against assist spam

My feelings exactly. Assist ch to confirm is largely the problem with assists in my opinion.
 
I can't vote yes or no. I'm torn. I like the changes in gameplay dynamic, but I feel like there's one integral flaw.

After messing around in the lab with the latest IPS scheme, I've found that my combos are decreasing by a little over 1k damage on average, and I've been forced to explore new reset options and reset more frequently. My ToD's have pretty much all been extended by about 1 reset. I can imagine this would translate very well in terms of making matches more exciting to both watch and play, since while long devastating combos can be fun to execute, they're not as much fun to watch, get hit by, or drop. This also swings the balance of the skills required to get better at the game. Before the patches, I would have said that the three most important aspects of Skullgirls were, in order:
  1. Defense: Knowing how and when to pushblock, tech throws, absolute guard, PBGC, avoid burst baits, and cover assists. Failing here means dying in 1 or 2 resets.
  2. Offense: Mastering your optimal combos, and the resets between those combos.
  3. Neutral Game: The fundamentals. The art of hitting without being hit.
After the changes though, I think these three elements have been balanced a bit better, as combos are less devastating overall, and players get more opportunities to escape resets.

I can't help but feel like the way this has been accomplished through undizzy is a bit un-intuitive, however. It's essentially a guessing game as to when those green hitsparks are going to go off unless players have practiced and memorized reset timings and combos that avoid/exploit undizzy. This discourages players from free-forming their combos and resets on the fly, and boxes us into using the same combos over and over, lest we run the risk of eating undizzy bursts and surrendering the momentum. Unlike, say, stun in Street Fighter and KOF, knowing precisely how close one is to triggering undizzy takes a lot of guesswork out of the game for both players (When is he going to reset me? When might he bait me?).

That's my issue. My suggestion for it that I'm sure many others have already discussed is implementing an undizzy bar. I feel like that'll make the game and its mechanics more welcoming to newbies, and less restrictive to high-level players alike.

EDIT: I also agree with those who propose that there should be better indication as to when a counterhit occurs. Counterhits are a powerful way to capitalize from the neutral game and land more devastating combos, but it's moot if players can't recognize them when they happen.
 
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I'm kinda struggling to see your point here, but it sounds like you're saying "don't let other players hit you even once" in a game where you can confirm off of invulnerable assists and reversals (which is just plain silly), then that you prefer not having to make decisions (which, ok, it's your opinion, but it kind of defeats the idea behind the competitive nature of fighting games), and then you're saying that you like long combos (which is fine as that is an opinion and I have no power that let's me tell you that is wrong) followed by saying unenjoyable=mediocre (which is incorrect).
Being able to kill in LESS decisions (PARTICULARLY in team-based games) =/= "not having to make decisions". The game is still very much competitive as is.
You wanna nitpick on words? Okay, mediocre is synonymous with dull which can mean uninteresting. Can I be uninterested in the new combo prevention system and the resulting lower damage and threat level of it?
 
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I voted no, not because I like long combos but because undizzy is the worst piece of shit that has ever happened to this game.

There's an undizzy bar so I don't have much of a problem with it anymore.
 
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@Darklightjg1
Why do replies around here always degrade into senselessness; starting from the bottom:
I'm not attempting to make you seem any less right by nitpicking on words, I am trying to explain that reduced combo length does not automatically make the game an average fighter. Second of all, Ok, but I still don't see why less decision making is better in any particular way.

Additionally, as I overlooked answering this question in your previous post, the amount of openings it takes to kill a character varies from team size to team size. To put them down quickly:
3v3: 2 resets per character, 3 per character without meter usage
2v3: 2 resets per character, 3 per character without meter usage (for team of 3)
1v3: 2 resets per character (for solo), 3 per character with meter usage (for team of 3)

2v2: 2 resets per character, 3 per character without meter usage
1v2: 2 resets per character (for solo), 3 per character (for team of 2)

1v1: 3 resets per character (2 with meter usage for some characters)

That seems much better to me than 1 reset per character regardless of team sizes, it means the game is actually being played. With 1 reset per character it is entirely a guess until you've played multiple matches against that player. With 2 per character it remains like that, but in most cases it should require meter usage to achieve that goal, so while one player expends their meter the other gains, meaning the tide turns much the same way it does currently (which should make you happy considering you were saying how you like the current pressure on the attacker) but makes the attacker's loss much more reliant on the other player, as opposed to if that player has spent enough hours in training mode perfecting their loop.

Of course these are just numbers and don't mean anything until in an actual match where there are stray hits that people don't confirm off of (i.e. defensive assist usage) and variable damage for different characters as well as different locations that will change the number of resets the opponent needs to use (which will, contrary to many people's announced beliefs, result in a more frequent return to the neutral game making that a viable part of Skullgirls' gameplay).

I would be more accepting of chunky combos if it wasn't incredibly easy to confirm off of absolutely anything in Skullgirls, particularly invulnerable assists and reversals, it would make losing feel more like an actual flaw with my skill, rather than the lengths of my combos not being 5 times their current length, but the issue of getting bored of watching someone's 80 hit combo for 20 seconds 3 times a match is hardly gone. A 9 second combo that does 70% of said 80 hit combo's damage is not going to be as dull to sit through knowing a reset could come at any moment and not 17 seconds into another combo.

And yes, right now you can still use resets viably, but why do that when you can just do a 10k combo off of an Updo assist confirm into ambiguous reset into kill which is several times safer than giving the opponent 3 opportunities to escape and potentially counter? The fun of being engaged in the game? Don't be so silly, why would anyone want that when they can get wins more easily with less decision making?
 
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I voted no, not because I like long combos but because undizzy is the worst piece of shit that has ever happened to this game.

I'd like to know the reasoning behind this.
 
...oi this stuff is never gonna end is it...?
 
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