Possible new IPS

[Mr Peck]

Forces more links, and thusly harder combos... See pecks Bella bnb on the first page and notice the Bella j.lp launch series into a cr.mp on the landing. That is a much harder link than her current one of using st.lp.

This is not true. The s.LP link would have worked fine. I did the c.MP link so it wouldn't set off the *current* IPS either.

 

[VIVIT_rv00]

Squigly, one bar + lv2 dragon

cr.LK cr.MK s.HP sx
s.HP sx
cr.MP s.HP xx qcf+MK
[instant] j.qcf+HK
cr.MK s.HK
[delay] j.MK j.HP
[instant] j.LK j.MK j.HK
s.LP cr.MK cr.HP xx qcf+LK xx qcb+LKMK
cr.LK cr.MK cr.HP xx ender

Complies with starter tracking, ender tracking and undizzy. Does ~9k damage, plusminus. WHAT NOW MIKE Z

 

[Camail]

I also echo @camails opinion, it just seems like some new stuff to learn for not THAT good a reason. I'm all for learning new stuff, but having to learn redundancies doesn't seem fun. And by redundancies I mean why couldn't we have just learned this from the get go rather than having to learn new stuff to replace our old stuff?

Ok so this isn't what I meant at all. Just sayin'. I just don't want to learn it because it requires a lot of work and time, which I need to spend on real life. I thought that was clear?

 

[Dime]

This is not true. The s.LP link would have worked fine. I did the c.MP link so it wouldn't set off the *current* IPS either.

Yeah after reading what I wrote I realized that wasn't the greatest example... So:

Example 2, super updated totally theorized ips version 1.0 greatest links edition:

Assuming that flight isn't an ender with painwheel and that moves aren't tracked until stage 5 and that stage 5 stays the same as it currently is...

Cr.lk,st.mp,st.hp xx fly df+j.lk,cr.mk,st.hp xx lk buer xx fly uf+j.lp,j.lk


The last j.lk will cause a burst state. So in that combo specifically painwheel would have to use lk buer xx fly, df+j.lp into st.mp which is a much harder link! or pw would have the option to continue the combo easier with cr.lk but that truncates the hell out of the combo after the launch.

Any way it goes I see this forcing much harder links down the line as these combos get optimized. I don't mind that offline, but online its a bitch which is why I've always been quite happy with sg's lenient link system to get good damage.

The difference being that right now I can get very good damage with few to no hard links... Whereas in the proposed combo system, it seems like harder links are going to be the norm to get higher damage.

 

[Woofly]

I don't understand why people have issue with this, I see threads whenever I visit here and I see new combo strategies and a new mixup/reset sometimes but hardly any match up specific talk. This is bad, it is why WE as a scene are overall bad, it is why ChrisG was smoking 90% of the teams while not even playing this game, learn something outside of combos for the love of God. You want your game based around combos then enjoy staying Badder Than Bad™. You love neutral so much? You love back and forth play so much, well why the hell are you so scared of your combo doing less damage? I honestly do not get it. Although to those of you with legitimate concerns like how long games could last now, let us not forget that reset damage is pretty god damn high and combos will still do a good amount of damage as most of the damage combos from the earlier stages.

Oh and to those who are QQing about how you will have to "re-learn" the game, if this change makes you think you need to "re-learn" the GAME not your combos but the GAME you likely don't even know how to play in the first place. Mash that jab and pray to the Skullheart Old Gods and New that you can start your training mode original loop-but-not-loop practiced combo into 70%+.

ALSO IN CLOSING why the **** do you think this change will allow zoners *read Peacock* to dominate too, are you stupid? If you can't destroy the zoners health completely after confirming one hit they will blow everyone up? Do you even know how to approach, of course you do you love the neutral game dont you LEL. Jesus christ.

 

[Dime]

Ok so this isn't what I meant at all. Just sayin'. I just don't want to learn it because it requires a lot of work and time, which I need to spend on real life. I thought that was clear?

Read carefully and I think you will see that I am saying the same thing that you are.

If you can't see that... Then idk..
Whoa. Scratches head... Whoa... No words... I...

 

[View619]

New players will still get reset into death before figuring out wtf is going on, so that won't really get anybody to join up. Otherwise, this needs to be the last major change to IPS. Constantly changing from one type to next isn't really good for meta game development imo.

 

[Vladislav_Paizis]

If combos become shorter, then why do you people consider that it will take a long time to relearn the game? Didn't we all relearn the game every time it got updated from Vanilla to Slightly Different Edition and now Squiggly edition? Mind you, I was one of the people who was UPSET at Ms. Fortune changes like her nerfed IAD pressure, but then got over it and I still try to learn her and I don't feel like going back to SDE. I'm sure learning a short BnB is much less time-consuming than learning a loop. I just hope that new shorter combos won't have shit damage like Strider Hiryu without X-Factor in UMvC3.

 

[Alstein]

Some folks are going to love this, some folks are going to hate this and the folks who hate it are going to complain LOUD. (I suspect they'll be a minority)

This will destroy some players who are lab monsters and don't understand the game.

I think it will make things more interesting.

My suggestion: put it in the game when you start the Big Band beta, and keep it throughout the Big Band beta even if folks cry massive salt- then see how things go and if it improves things.

I don't think this will make any truly dedicated players quit, and the shorter combos and more chances to play will make it more likely that newer players get to learn and some of them will stick with the game.

This change will definitely appeal to the VF crowd (and you'd be surprised how many VF folk like Skullgirls)

 

[IsaVulpes]

This will destroy some players who are lab monsters and don't understand the game.

Read: Every single fucking SG player

 

[CaioLugon]

Somebody should open a poll for this.

 

[Alstein]

Oh, I have no issues with altering the game. Having the game's rules change every few months is a great way to keep it fresh. If it's a bad change, it can always be reverted.

If something is still too good, you can tweak as needed.

If it was Mar 2014, I could see wait until Evo being a legit argument, but not 8-9 months out. If you can't learn how to deal with a new IPS with 9 months, you'd be nothing more than a fraud at Evo. Also, there's no guarantee SG gets into Evo anyways.

 

[Vladislav_Paizis]

Just watched Mr Peck's concept combos and resets and I wanna say I like them. They don't really come across as too short to me.

 

[Camail]

You know, we really can't have a meaningful discussion unless everyone is actually aware of the entire conversation. Please read every post before coming in, at the moment this is still a reasonable request, so educate yourself on the current state of the discussion while you still can. And let me preempt any finger pointing by saying that this comment is on topic because it is talking about this specific discussion and is aimed at having a genuine discussion.

 

[keninblack]

I don't give a fuck what happens.

Just have the build out on PS3 so we me and Winnie can break it god dammit.

 

[Broken Loose]

After last night's tournament, matches are taking too long. I know it was an extreme example (3v3 teams with each individual fight being 2/3), but things like the Solo vs. Solo fights took for fucking ever and reducing the optimized damage levels won't help one bit.

Current optimized damage is something like 8-9k midscreen and 10k+ in the corner, and good players reset often and quickly as intended. That's not bad at all! But if things aren't satisfactory enough given the current conditions, then perhaps we need to start changing specific characters rather than the whole system, like how Bella and Filia got nerfed.

I know it's really easy to look at stupid shit like Valentine's Zero-style corner-to-corner carries and Painwheel's touches of death and think, "The combo restrictors aren't working!" but for each match where Painwheel kills somebody off a random Hornet Bomber there's a 30-minute 1v1 first-to-2 set. I really don't want fights to take any longer than they currently do.

 

[Alstein]

If damage is too low after these IPS changes, one change that could be made is boosting the damage on certain moves. That would bring it back.

Resets might do damage faster than long combos as well, since there will be less scaling.

 

[Vladislav_Paizis]

Maybe off topic, but what about reducing the scaling on Level 3 Supers? In UMvC3 they're unscaled IIRC. In SG it's much more practical to do a Level 3 in a short combo or after a reset. Doing Level 3 at the end of a long combo doesn't feel like worth doing it.

 

[Mr Peck]

That was already done in the Squigly patch. They do much higher damage at the end of a combo than they used to in SDE.

 

[keninblack]

As long as the average amount of damage for each character stays the same I don't really see whats wrong.
People will still drop, or do "resets" anyway and not finish them.

 

[IsaVulpes]

I'm all in for damage buffs on *neutral tools* and *punishes*.

After last night's tournament, matches are taking too long. I know it was an extreme example (3v3 teams with each individual fight being 2/3), but things like the Solo vs. Solo fights took for fucking ever and reducing the optimized damage levels won't help one bit.

Those matches at the 3v3 took "for fucking ever" because people 1)did unoptimized combos 2)no resets 3)didn't even keep pressure on
If you look at matches of people who don't know how to get in, don't know how to deal damage, and don't know how to stay in then.. yeahh, damage is low.
I had plenty timeouts when I started fresh on SG (Vanilla!! With 14k Meterless combos) and played with a mate who was new to the game too, because we both had no idea what to do.
www.twitch.tv/iebattlegrounds/b/471734425?t=3h57m42s did this take too long?

 

[Woofly]

Agreeable stuff

I think one of the issues in this stems from damage taking so long to happen, I think people KNOW that resets are stronger than combos but they require you to think about things. The safer option is usually to finish your plate, nobody wants to get hit by a reversal and watch their character get thrown around for 15 seconds or more. Again I also think most of the damage happens early in the combo so if the fluff was somewhat cut I would like to think we would see more resets, or at least people getting back into the position to be applying pressure and doing damage. I also think the way combos work atm make the game kinda boring to watch at most times, if more of the current time spent in matches players watching players consider their next move, how to approach, what the opponent is thinking and what their options were....it may not seem quite so long. Maybe. *2cents*

 

[View619]

Some folks are going to love this, some folks are going to hate this and the folks who hate it are going to complain LOUD. (I suspect they'll be a minority)

This will destroy some players who are lab monsters and don't understand the game.

I think it will make things more interesting.

My suggestion: put it in the game when you start the Big Band beta, and keep it throughout the Big Band beta even if folks cry massive salt- then see how things go and if it improves things.

I don't think this will make any truly dedicated players quit, and the shorter combos and more chances to play will make it more likely that newer players get to learn and some of them will stick with the game.

This change will definitely appeal to the VF crowd (and you'd be surprised how many VF folk like Skullgirls)

Edit:

Yeah, completely misread that. Carry on.

 

[IsaVulpes]

So, every decent/good SG player will be affected. Sounds like a cry to make the game "fair" for everybody by forcing every player to forget the time the spent figuring stuff out and start from scratch. Don't be surprised if it results in those players dropping SG for a more stable game.

I.. don't.. what?

 

[bsobotka]

This will destroy some players who are lab monsters and don't understand the game.

So, every decent/good SG player will be affected

Don't understand game = every good SG player...?

 

[Broken Loose]

So, every decent/good SG player will be affected. Sounds like a cry to make the game "fair" for everybody by forcing every player to forget the time the spent figuring stuff out and start from scratch. Don't be surprised if it results in those players dropping SG for a more stable game.

While I don't think every good player will be "destroyed" like Alstein said, everybody will definitely feel the effects in one way or another.

Regardless, and this is big huge important, this will be a major destabilization. View nailed it here; for all Marvel 3's faults it's still relatively the same game as they played 2 years ago. It seems like we could afford to make huge changes from Launch Party Everyday to Slightly Different Edition and then from SDE to MDE, but now the playerbase is large enough and the game has enough attention that pulling an MK9 wouldn't go ignored.

 

[Vladislav_Paizis]

Isn't Mike Z actually against rebalancing the game too often?

 

[Luweewu]

Don't understand game = every good SG player...?

Well.... that's not completely wrong....

 

[bsobotka]

This change would just focuses the game more on resets than it is right now. That was the point of undizzy, but frankly it just doesn't work. Everyone went and found their optimized undizzy limit combos and just end in supers because its more worth it. Having to reset makes the game more involving for both parties and speeds up matches (I have no idea why everyone thinks it would slow down the game). I think this would be a good change. Peck already demonstrated that combos wouldn't be dead, the game gets more interesting to play while in combo if you can't put the controller down and get a drink before coming back, and really this is just as confusing as the current IPS undizzy (which isn't that hard to understand if you just look it up and think about it).
If you want to be realistic, everyone is going to find maxed out combos that kill 1v1 in two predetermined resets anyway. But that's more fun to play than 10,000 damage combo no resets. At least you have a chance to do something.

 

[Alstein]

Isn't Mike Z actually against rebalancing the game too often?

And he hasn't rebalanced the game too often.

Also, SG has a huge advantage over every other FG- a popular PC version that can be patched easily, something console fighters don't have.

While SG may seem like it patches a lot for a FG, it doesn't patch all that often for a competitive PC game.

 

[Vladislav_Paizis]

And he hasn't rebalanced the game too often.

Also, SG has a huge advantage over every other FG- a popular PC version that can be patched easily, something console fighters don't have.

While SG may seem like it patches a lot for a FG, it doesn't patch all that often for a competitive PC game.

I dropped MK9 and never was interested in Injustice, but how often did those games get patched? If Mike Z is going to rebalance the game after every new DLC character, that still wouldn't be as often as Netherrealm Studios, would it?

 

[DARKNESSxEAGLE]

Regardless, and this is big huge important, this will be a major destabilization. View nailed it here; for all Marvel 3's faults it's still relatively the same game as they played 2 years ago. It seems like we could afford to make huge changes from Launch Party Everyday to Slightly Different Edition and then from SDE to MDE, but now the playerbase is large enough and the game has enough attention that pulling an MK9 wouldn't go ignored.

I don't think this is quite as big a deal as you think. Skullgirls' playerbase is a lot larger now, but I think it's more than likely that the majority of its players don't have a combo that'll take Undizzy higher than 150 (for point of reference on combo complexity). If an added challenge mode like that of Blazblue or Street Fighter were to be added most of those players would not have to learn the ins and out of this new system and could just use the combos they're handheld through instead.

As for people who think they need to rework their combos to get the most damage out of them, well, that's what this change is trying to make a change to. It's not here to say "optimise your combos more", it's to tell you to stop focusing on combo damage or length and instead focus on actually playing the game. If you like games where you press buttons to the right timing in the same way over and over again go and play a rhythm game or something, fighters are supposed to primarily be about the mind games, and resets are a way to let people enjoy pulling of combos while keeping mind-games intact as well as speeding them up a bit.

If you're worried about damage being too low (which is a dumb concern in the first place as, if you've ever used a good reset, you'll know a short combo with a versatile reset can deal crazy damage on its own) and this somehow proves to be a common issue (not complaint) then there's no reason that higher damage on attacks/lower health for characters can't be tested.

 

[Mike_Z]

Hi!

I had no idea the internet was so against experimentation. Multiple websites focused on various aspects of sex had led me to believe otherwise. (^.^)
Yes, it'll get tried in the Beta. This stuff is the reason we have a Beta. It will NOT be on console in the upcoming update. Though of course if it sticks, it will be in a future update.
As a game designer, I'm absolutely giddy at the thought of being able to put a new system in front of the people who play the game to see whether they like it and possibly CHANGE it or AVOID using it at all if they don't! Rather than shipping a whole game and finding out people hate it and then having to market the hell out of it and hold huge-prize-money tournaments and keep positively spinning it just to force people to think it doesn't suck.
(Keep in mind, "I have to relearn my long junk" is not a reasonable rationale for hating it as opposed to any other system - that's just hating any change, Grumpy.)

Treat it like it's a new game, since we seem to be allergic to increasing the sequel number. MvC1->MvC2, rather than 2012->AE.

[edit] I had a goal when I started for what the gameplay would look like, and each change is an attempt to get to that. However, SG now has a playerbase which has their own ideas, and ultimately that's more important. If the playerbase disagrees with something that brings the game closer to my goal, that will probably win.

Rationale: If a designer can't give you a rationale that's when you call them George Lucas, thanks whoever that was.
Every iteration of the IPS has been aimed at reducing repetition and increasing variety in combos. Obviously you can't/shouldn't force people to do a different combo off the same starting hit every single time, but at least reducing the "loopiness" of that combo they'll always do.
After much observation it's quite possible that IPS is tracking the wrong thing.
The current way you build a combo in SG is you find one thing you can link off of, and you link off of it with everything that IPS allows. (Painwheel Buers or s.HP, Parasoul LP shot -> s.LP/s.LK/s.MP/s.MK, or her j.HK or B+HK, Double barrel, Valentine j.HP, Filia drill, Peacock LK George, Fortune axe kick, etc.) Sometimes you combine multiple versions of this in one combo. This leads to boringish combos that have a lot of the same characteristics of loops.
This was especially evident in v1.0 where Parasoul could use standing and crouching LP and LK for four easy reps of Napalm Shot...people tend to play this way because it requires the least thought and takes the most advantage of muscle memory for the most gain in your combo. Plus it only requires learning to link off one move.

The goal of this experiment is to see whether this changes combos to be less loop-related. It is not to reduce damage, though it will affect optimized combos because that's the point. It may reduce length, but that is a side-effect of eliminating loops rather than anything else. It may also not reduce overall length, I dunno, that's why we experiment!

How it works, the OP is basically correct:
- Stages are the same, tracks whatever in Stage 3, triggers upon doing whatever in Stage 5.
- Does not track chain starters anymore. (I think doing that also is too restrictive...then again, each time I've been nice about what you can do it has led to problems, heh.)
- When you start a new chain, if you linked off something you have linked off before, it will trigger.
- It tracks the move you linked off, so that move has to have been in Stage 3 to count / Stage 5 to trigger. Stage 2 ground chain -> launcher does not count, so you can do another launcher later.
- I have no idea how it treats supers since this is a quick test, but launch, aircombo -> air Gregor -> Gregor -> any hit will trigger IPS. So it looks like they are treated as regular moves. I could possibly make them free if this sucks.
- Tracked moves carry over on DHC. They didn't last night, because that was turned off since Undizzy basically takes care of that problem, but with no stun they kinda have to.
- Fortune's head is ignored, if you do blahblah s.MK, head, s.LP it counts as linking s.MK to s.LP.

A few things:
- Resets ALREADY kill faster than long combos, even right now. The DPS of a reset is way higher than a fully-scaled anything. I doubt this will slow down the match pace between two people who know what they're doing besides combos.
- This doesn't mean Undizzy would stay gone, but since Undizzy is currently the limit I want to see what the limit is with this new system.
- If it sticks, this may result in the removal of limits which were added in an attempt to reduce the number of times you can link off things (Fortune axe kick, Filia airball cancel, Kanchou bounce, etc.) Or not.
- If this might cause you to relearn your optimized combo, I don't care. :^)

In the end, the point of an experiment is to see what people think. If you hate it, great, that's valuable information which we wouldn't have learned without you being able to try it.

(@Broken Loose - Solo currently takes a long time mostly because of 2x timer / 2x win-loss pose and intro / no meter kept, all of which going to Downs would help with. And matches with Shin AT-proof in most games take close to the maximum allowable time. Heh.)

 

[Broken Loose]

If we're focusing more on the aesthetic aspects, have you considered something like meter penalties for repetition? Just outright don't give meter for moves used after the first time in Stage 5 (and undo the MDE meter nerf)?

That way, there are multiple avenues for "optimized" if combined with the current system and the aesthetically pleasing one should end in super.

edit: And make Install a level 3 again.

 

[Flotilla]

Thanks for the explanation Mike. I'm honestly really excited to see where this IPS change will take Skullgirls.

 

[Mike_Z]

If we're focusing more on the aesthetic aspects, have you considered something like meter penalties for repetition?

A penalty means you can still do the other thing if you so choose, so no. There's already a damage penalty for repetition, people ignore that routinely. :^)
Plus that introduces another layer of rules that people will tell noobs they need to understand if they want to play the game at a high level.
I didn't say it was for aesthetics, removing loops does a lot of other things. Shortening combos is a probable side effect, but it's also a desirable side effect.

 

[DARKNESSxEAGLE]

I can't see the benefit of ignoring chain starters, people can just replace what would be the end of their usual launcher with their Updo or Napalm Pillar assist and their combo is extended that extra bit (yet another disadvantage for players going solo, wooo...). Of course, this also sounds like something that isn't exactly discernible from just the theory side of things but when this is tested I would recommend/prefer starting without chain starters being ignored. As an added bonus it means if you do decide to change to ignore them, the feedback from lovers of combos will be positive instead of the negative feedback you'd get from throwing on another restriction.

 

[Broken Loose]

A penalty means you can still do the other thing if you so choose, so no. There's already a damage penalty for repetition, people ignore that routinely. :^)
Plus that introduces another layer of rules that people will tell noobs they need to understand if they want to play the game at a high level.
I didn't say it was for aesthetics, removing loops does a lot of other things. Shortening combos is a probable side effect, but it's also a desirable side effect.

This being the case, I'm totally cool with it if Drama stays, new IPS (SPI?) happens, but it tracks standing and crouching normals differently. My official reason is that things you can link after are often really specific (often being launchers or special moves), but my real reason is that I want to still be able to do a Queue Sting followup because it looks really cool.

 

[Vladislav_Paizis]

My combos barely touch Undizzy and I don't think they go over the 300 Undizzy stun, but I'm interested in this change and would like to try it out in the Beta as soon as Big Band becomes available. Let's get ready For Skullgirls EXE Late!

 

[Hopscawtch]

As much as I appreciate your willingness to experiment I feel as though this idea doesn't adhere to the "Freedom and creativity without being unfair" impression that IPS instilled upon me since vanilla. I feel as though by eliminating boring looking loop combos you are also removing other less used and more interesting combos as well. With how it was explained I feel as though the variety of viable combos will shrink even more and you may effectively alienate a lot of your currently existing (albeit small) player base.