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Reasons why I don't understand why people do 360 Grab xx Devil Horns.

BlakeCourser

BlakeCourser

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Cerebella Double Squigly
I have done these tests on the Xbox version, 3v2 in training mode.



Full Ultimate Showstopper (US/360 Grab) = 4800


This is the full unscaled damage from the super. This is our base damage.



Devil Horns Cancel Follow-Up BNB = 5554


The BNB is as followed.


cLK, cMK,
jMP, jHK,
cMP, cHP,
jLP (spam)
LP, LP, MP, HK xx Cere-Copter, Diamond Dynamo

(I considered my skills as a Bella player to be below-average. I cannot get the jHP restand consistently, but as for as I know this part doesn't matter in this test.)


In this situation we have 2 Bars. Keep that in mind. However, if we only use 1 Bar we are left with only 4457 (Less damage then a full Ultimate Showstopper)


So if we want more damage than a US we need to use 2 bars.



However, here comes my point. If we have 2 bars, during the Ultimate Showstopper we can DHC

And where can we DHC? After the final hit of Ultimate Showstopper.

And where can you cancel using Devil Horns? Only before the final hit.

And the big question. How much damage does the final hit of Ultimate Showstopper do? If I'm reading the attack data correctly, the last hit does 3500.


So if we change things around a bit, let's see what we end up.


We have 2 bars, and landed ourselves a raw Ultimate Showstopper (because we spam 360 grabs like scrubs), and are left with one bar. After Showstopper lands it's final hit, we DHC into our teammate (for these examples I used Valentine, and Filia. Who I believe to be common Cerebella teammates)



With Valentine, our DHC does not actually attack the opponent, but rather using Scalpels (Or Flatliner in the corner) we are able to follow-up with my super-baby combo. The combo I used as a follow-up with Val was:


cLK, cMK, cHP
jHP, jHK xx Savage Bypass [H]


(My Valentine is....crap)


And what's the damage total from this 2 bar Ultimate Showstopper follow-up? (DHC) A whopping 7899.


And what was the 2 Bar Ultimate Showstopper follow-up from earlier? (Devil Horns) 5554


And my tests with Filia have resulted in no 1 Bar mid-screen follow-ups. However, using Fenrir Drive after the final hit from Ultimate Showstopper leaves us at 7557


After all of my tests with US follow-ups, I cannot find any reason to use Devil Horns other than the following reasons:


No teammates (left alive) and 2 bars.
Reset potential. (Can still have the reset potential from Valentine after the whiffed DHC)


Or possibly the most likely issue: I'm terrible and I am using a bad follow-up after Devil Horns. (I still can't get runstops/kancho combos)


So,from what I can see is the only reason people do Devil Horn super cancels is because they are using combos that do 8k with only 2 bars. (Which I cannot do, and my tests have been worthless. Although, maybe someone can get a better Valentine combo after the scalpels)
 
Going for a full combo is only useful when it's going to kill or you wanna DHC, besides the fact that the opponent can recover the red health from the full USS.

Basically, canceling into DH leaves you at a more advantageous position most of the time and doesn't use more than the bar for the USS itself. The filia example you use is a good one, even though it does more damage overall, when it comes to the actual game it's only worth it if it kills.
 
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The reason is you can reset.

Also USS leaves lots of red health.

But mostly you can reset, you should do it so you can reset, those things are pretty good I hear.

Spending more meter for a reset after DHC isn't exactly bad but you can do it without more meter anyway and after a fair bit of corner carry, so why not?
 
First, a decent followup to Bella 360 deals significantly more damage than the super, as long as you got the Undizzy to work with.

EG:
360 xx Horns, Dash
slk smp chp
- Jlp(x4), jhp
Cmk
- Jmp jhk
Shp xx pummel
Cmp shp xx rs
Clk cmp shp xx copter

This deals 5523 damage for one meter (compared to USS dealing 4800 when not canceled)

---

Second, it leaves you in a far better position afterwards:
360 by itself does very little to change the characters respective positions; combo after hornscancel on the other hand allows you to almost go from corner to corner, which means the opponent will be somewhere they really don't want to be after you hit them.

360 also barely recovers before the opponent does, while normal combo-enders tend to give you some free reign on how to move, or keep the opponent where you want them.

---

Third, there is obviously an imminent reset potential.
If you do the abovementioned combo, and after jlp jhp you do an MGR instead of continuing, you got 5357 damage right there + can obviously combo/reset further after the MGR.

This causes 360 to be an actual death threat, rather than "oh well, 5k damage, I can eat two more of these"

---

Fourth, it builds meter. USS by itself always means you now sit on -1 bar. The hornscancel allows you to get back half a meter (this is, however, also a downside - the opponent builds a full bar in the meantime).

---

Fifth, it doesn't require a teammate / switching your order / etc.
While it is true that one can generally get significantly more damage (will be lowered in the Beta though, so be careful with those numbers) from a DHC, that means you need a second teammate alive (actually not too common given the frequency of Bella anchor) and means you need to switch out from Bella into said new teammate (oftentimes undesirable, eg.when your next char has a lot of red life), and means you actually have to spend 2 bars (and must've had them when you did the 360, as there is no room to build meter).

---

Bonus note:
The entirety of USS is red life, ie if the opponent gets to tag, they can score a full heal.
After hornscancel, ~half the damage you deal will be unrecoverable.
 
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There have been many times where I have just Cerebella left and land a 360 super but the 4800 damage wouldn't be enough to kill so I go for devil horns into an optimized combo and end with Diamond Dynamo either killing the threat or even winning the round.

Truth be told, unless the 4800 route would kill the character, almost every good Bella player I know would go for the extension and threaten with her amazing reset game or just net overall more damage.

Oh and corner carry is nice too. Look at last year's EVO, in the first match between Sage and myself he was going to kill my Bella with a landed 360 but instead took the risk and went for the combo to carry her to the corner and then killed her there, getting much better positioning to mix up my incoming Peacock.
 
Hmm. So here's how I see it:

Horns Cancel- One bar, reset potential, more damage, less red-health, corner-carry.
Whiffed DHC- Two bars, reset potential, even more damage, more red health, corner-carry.


I'm seeing many reasons to use Horns-Cancel. Which honestly gives more reasons to actually do it, and some motivation to finally learn pummel horse and jHP restands.


But, I still see reasons to use a DHC into a combo~reset. What are the drawbacks here as opposed to Horns-Cancel? Red Health and more meter is what I can see. What am I missing? I really don't want to be doing DHC, combo, (reset, combo) if I'm missing something important.
 
DHCs that can followed up are pretty great, only they're not that common. If you have the bar it's a very good option for getting bella out or maxing damage.
 
I'm glad you got some new understanding as to why people Horns out of 360, though next time you should ask why a thing is done first and then go on about why you think that thing might not be worth doing afterwards.

On top of what people have already said, it should be noted that not every character can DHC after the final hit of Showstopper and followup (Big Band can't really, though he can DHC SSJ, and then SSJ/lvl3 again to connect), and some can't DHC without their lvl 3 (Eliza and Fortune). And also should be noted that Showstopper will be scaling the followup (one of the Beta changes), so any followup should be doing less damage from now on.
 
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I disagree Zidiane... By going through his logic it made it easier to see where the actual hole in his knowledge was.

If he had just said "Why do horns after 360?" he could have actually meant multiple things.

It also shows he has actually thought about it.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
What?
Tomo009 said:
I disagree Zidiane
I personally try not to form opinions about things unless I know, or at least think I know, the reasoning behind those things. It helps prevent me from coming to the wrong conclusions prematurely. Taking a stance on a topic before hearing the other side sounds strange to me, and it feels like that's what OP did (he was open to answers though, so whatever on that last thing I guess).

As far as this specific topic, I feel like him asking "Why do people Devil Horns after US when letting it go off/DHCing seems to get more damage?" would have gotten the same exact answers as this thread, and would have saved him a lot of the time he spent writing the OP.

Or you know, whatever, write an essay about the question you want to ask about the reasons why people do things, I don't personally mind, I was just trying to offer some time-saving advice.

Let's totally continue to take over this thread talking about my one sentence offhanded comment that was followed by contribution to the thread, by the way
 
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Of course he could have saved himself some time, but there surely isnt anything bad in coherently displaying one's thoughts in the OP of a thread.
It shows that he invested some thought into his question (I'm more likely to post an essay amswer to someone who cares than a guy posting a one-liner), it starts discussion from the get go (rather than forcing some kind of "what do you mean?"), and if he happens to be correct, we got a great piece of 'tech' right there.

In the end it is not much of a deal.. However, I'm rather heckled by your tone - If you had written "It would probably have been easier for you to just ask the question without the two pages of explanation" I would have disagreed with it but w/e;
instead, you posted "next time you should..", implying that BlakeCourser did something wrong and broke some part of the Netiquette - like one says "next time you shouldn't triplepost, but use the edit function instead".
And then the guy, who seems new to the forums and just made a really really good thread, sits there and thinks "oh shit, I spent quite some time on this post and it's still wrong, damn ugh" which.. I ain't going conform with.

P.S. Us "taking over" the thread doesn't matter much, as it has been answered with 'no questions left'.
 
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"Next time you should..." wasn't part of any sort of netiquette I'm trying to enforce on anyone (sorry for any implications, wasn't trying to shit on anyone...?). It's the same thing I would say giving someone Bella advice ("Next time you fight Peacock you should try to use Deflector"), or in real life about real things ("Next time you go out you should make sure you don't have your Social Security Card in your wallet"), or about inconsequential things ("Next time you eat Ramen Noodles you should try adding Hot Sauce"). Is there something wrong with that phrase? Next time should I use different wording? Sounds like it'd save me time.
 
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Well, this was my first thread. I wanted to give off an impression of mine. One that says "I know this much of the game, I'm always thinking of theories of what people do, and I may have a better idea from the norm and would like to hear how people can break my argument due to their experience. Also, I like adding in jokes, and give myself a shown personality".


Well, maybe we can turn this topic around. What are some good follow-ups from USS? Or should we take that to the Cerebella Combo thread?
 
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Dang. I think I was the bad guy here. Whoops. After 20 some years, I still can't say something without randomly being an asshole and not realizing how. @BlakeCourser I'm sorry. You should probably operate under the assumption that I'm wrong, and not let what I've said influence your future posting.

As far as US followups, that's allowed here because of the question you asked, "why do horns after 360", which extends to "how much damage can be gotten after horns" since that can be a reason to do it.

US, Horns,
dash, c.lk, c.mk, j.mp, j.hk,
s.hp, Pummel Horse,
c.mp, s.hp, Kanchou,
s.lk, c.hp, j.lp mash,
s.lp, s.lp, s.mk, s.hk, cerecopter, dynamo

6.8k

That should work on everyone (and Big Band only works in Beta).

This next one only works on certain characters, don't remember which (the part that's finicky is Pummel Horse, c.mp, s.hp, Kanchou).

US, Horns,
dash, c.lp, c.mp, s.hp, Pummel Horse,
c.mp, s.hp, Kanchou,
s.lk, c.hp, j.lp mash, j.hp,
s.lp, s.lp, s.mk, s.hk, cerecopter, Dynamo

7k~ (shut the thing off before writing the number down, it was 7.2k I think)
 
Zidiane said:
That should work on everyone (and Big Band only works in Beta).

Just been doing some testing of this now, it also won't work on Eliza (works in beta).
 
Pombear said:
Just been doing some testing of this now, it also won't work on Eliza (works in beta).
You can probably get it on her by dashing after Pummel Horse. Makes it a tighter link, though.
 
@zidane I recently got back into training with Bella and can't get Pummel Horse off of sHP. Back in vanilla I would just charge back, press forward and Grab twice, but now since LP is also run stop, I get instant run stop now.

Now I'm charging back, sHP, press forward-LK, then try to press grab as fast I can, but it just doesn't work.
 
Two simple ways to get the earliest possible Pummel Horse:
[4]6 LP+LK+MK
[4][LP+LK]6 MK

So for sHP xx Pummel, either
- Hold back, press sHP, press forward LP+LK+MK, or
- Hold back, press sHP, hold LP+LK, press forward MK

I do the former, @Icky said he has issues with it and prefers the latter; try them both out and see which works better for you.
 
I have a grab macro, so I do c.mk > j.mp > [4] > j.hk > s.hp > 6+mk > macro.
 
I tend to do the hold back, s.hp, forward, hk, grab. I give a slight delay before the grab (very slight!), makes it easier. I have a hard time holding buttons in the middle of hitting other buttons. My fine motor skills are terrible.
 
Ah...of course. Not use LK for the run. So simple, yet so obvious.


I'll try out the LK+LP+MK while I'm in training.


Update: So I just learned that holding the corresponding button, then activating Tumbling Run will shoot out the move instantly. Holding MK+Back, forward HK is instant Kancho. I think I finally can get consistent with my combos now. Thank you all.
Upfaye 2: Deciding to go with hold Back+LP+LK/Macro and press forward and MK/HK
 
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