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Retail j.HP vs Beta j.HP

Old (retail) j.HP or New j.HP

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KhaosMuffins

KhaosMuffins

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Ms. Fortune Unknown Filia
Let's just get this over with quickly. Made a new thread so we can have a poll. May or may not delete it after a decision is finalized since this thread won't have a purpose then.

So I know we all want the old j.HP hitstun to combo into headspike, so the question is do we want lower knockback with less damage like in the recent beta, or upwards knockback with more damage like in retail?

Retail j.HP
+ More damage
+? Combos are less awkward (?)
+ Easy to convert off of a raw hit
+? We're more familiar with it
- Upwards knockback can cause certain combos to drop in weird places on certain characters (EX: j.HP > ADC > j.HP on Squigly and Valentine)
- No universal restand combos using j.HP, so you'll be using your OTG much more often if you actually want to do a good combo (and considering the nerf to her ground super....)

Beta j.HP
+ Universal restand combos so you can save your OTG for when you want to super at the end of a combo and/or DHC for an extended combo with another character
+ More routes which mean more reset options, can still do some of the routes from retail j.HP but with different timing/normals
+ Easier/more damaging/more consistent side-switch combo for when you want to send the opponent a certain direction.
+ Some are saying it's easier to convert off a raw hit (though I still can't hit with it air-to-air, hehe)
-? Some of the combos are more awkward to do (?)
- Less damage (Though she still hits about as hard as in retail; if not for the damage nerf she'd be getting 8k+ free)
- A bit more difficult to convert off of a random hit
- Not sure if Mike Z would lessen the hitstun or use the old hitstun if this were put in
- Not sure how combo'ing into headspike would work due to the knockback

Update:
Mike_Z said:
Just vote on the damn knockback vs dmg. I'll figure out hitstun and comboing into head spike myself. :^P

I personally like the beta j.HP more, especially now that saving the OTG for Fortune is more important and because having more combo routes is really nice. The potential loss of j.HP > headspike sucks but this is still a thing:

Also I really want to know what Elda Taluda thinks of all of this since he's the best head-on Fortune and all.
 
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You should probably specify whether "Old j.HP" refers to the Retail build or to the "Old Beta build" (since the New-New j.HP is the one with more Knockback)

Also, can Non-Fortune players vote on this based on what looked more interesting in matches / which combos look prettier in vids / whatever or is this strictly for cat guys
 
I'd rather keep the poll voting to Fortune players since utility > what looks prettier to players of other characters. But I have no way of telling who votes.

Discuss all you like, though.
 
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I think you may have linked the wrong video, there doesn't appear to be even one j.HP in that combo.
 
Is beta j.HP supposed to cross up more easily? I can't get it too, and IAD j.HP was really good at crossing up ambiguously before, in the retail version.

That and comboing into headspike are why I like the old j.HP. Combos also felt a lot less awkward with it, personally. The most recent beta combos after the initial j.HP changes weren't that fun to do.

Honestly, I'd be OK with either. Would beta j.HP with enough hitstun to do j.HP xx headspike be too powerful?
 
There wasn't any change to the hitbox on j.HP so... they should both be the same in terms of crossups.

You may have to adjust your timing slightly for the faster startup.
 
Jason said:
I think you may have linked the wrong video, there doesn't appear to be even one j.HP in that combo.
That combo was to show that you can still do head-off combos still, even without old j.HP.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Can't you start public polls where you see who voted for what?
Hah, whoops. I didn't know that I could just click on the number of votes and see who all voted for what. Never mind that part, then.
 
I've been interested in Fortune on and off for the better half of six months, from what I saw @KhaosMuffins and @Elda Taluda pull off, along with minor training sessions I've had with her. While I may not have enough Fortune experience to have any sway in this, my experience with both j.HP's has made me favor the "Beta" j.HP. I think even with the hitstun nerf, it's still a good normal. I also like the flexibility provided by lower knockback, and j.HP ADC j.HP, L Axe Kick becomes a universal misdcreen tool that doesn't randomly whiff on lighter characters (I think I read somewhere that it randomly whiffs on Val and Squigly as is?).
 
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Just to clarify for everyone -- the hit stun isn't what is being discussed here as that is currently stripped from BOTH versions. Of course, every Fortune player would want that back if that is in the cards. All that's being discussed here is the new j.HP(a bit less damage with lower knockback) vs the old j.HP(higher damage but upward knockback).
 
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@RetroStation j.hp, ad, j.hp xx mk axekick is a universal combo tool for retail, if there were any problems with lk axe kick it might be consistency, but I never had any problems with any version of axe kick.

I've put in a pretty decent amount of time with head on fortune, and I tested out beta j.hp for a night (blame diablo 3 for distracting me from more lab work), basically everything is salvageable other than head spike combos. As I mentioned before, it gives good resets, and it is becoming clear that despite khaos's plea it will never be a factor in neutral game (even though it can now be used as an instant overhead which is cool).

I am mostly indifferent, but if I had to choose I would go with beta j.hp because if the new super change sticks the more restand combos we have, the better. Using an otg now amounts to telegraphing that you won't be using a super ender or that you are gonna reset, because if it doesn't kill then you are gonna give up momentum completely.
 
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I would like to see the old new beta j.hp back in the beta to experiment with it more and find neat things and then have everyone form an opinion afterwards. I think we only got to try it for like a week.(?)
 
Not even a week.
 
I don't think more time is needed, we know the general concept and all you need is a bit of combo theory to understand where it's going. Finding a new trick won't make the reset argument any more or less convincing because it is just a single cute trick among a vast array of other resets, we can already see the general theme of j.hp resets so there is no need to stall.
 
My biggest gripe is the hitstun, even though I'd prefer to keep the knockback, it would be nice having new combo routes.
 
In the end the hitstun change doesn't really do anything. Are there particular instances you have in mind? The best I could come up with is a2g situations where the link afterwards is harder, but getting a hit with j.hp is already a chore, j.lk xx mk axekick is a much more reliable opener anyway.
 
It feels terrible not being able to do j.hp into M axe kick, while even j.lk works.

Also, lk fiber xx cross up j.hp reset was pretty hard to convert off when I played a set with this change, I don't think I managed to link a c.lk even once online (but that's a minor, it's really just feels wrong).
 
Just vote on the damn knockback vs dmg. I'll figure out hitstun and comboing into head spike myself. :^P

OLD = 975 dmg, hits them upwards
NEW = 700 dmg, hits them downwards, WILL have a few frames less hitstun but may still be able to combo into spike or MK axekick.

Is this the first time a fighting game developer has actually asked the players what they prefer for a character they play? I THINK SO!
 
Mike_Z said:
Just vote on the damn knockback vs dmg. I'll figure out hitstun and comboing into head spike myself. :^P

OLD = 975 dmg, hits them upwards
NEW = 700 dmg, hits them downwards, WILL have a few frames less hitstun but may still be able to combo into spike or MK axekick.

Is this the first time a fighting game developer has actually asked the players what they prefer for a character they play? I THINK SO!

I was actually talking with someone earlier about how strange it was that the community was actually voting for a change that would make it into the game.
 
If its just knockback vs damage that's an easy choice, knock back. She easily makes up for any damage loss with different combos and stronger reset potential. It's not even that much of a damage nerf.
 
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@Choose Goose

Dream_Burn_Heal_Sprite.png
 
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Camail said:
@Choose Goose

Dream_Burn_Heal_Sprite.png

Or even

image.jpg

Anyway it seems like the new j.hp is more geared towards resets and stuff, right? And that's what SG's metagame is turning into (well that and burst baits) rather than the 30 minute combos of the past. I'm all for it.

It's not like my combos involved j.hp>spike anyway
 
Mike_Z said:
Just vote on the damn knockback vs dmg. I'll figure out hitstun and comboing into head spike myself. :^P

OLD = 975 dmg, hits them upwards
NEW = 700 dmg, hits them downwards, WILL have a few frames less hitstun but may still be able to combo into spike or MK axekick.

Is this the first time a fighting game developer has actually asked the players what they prefer for a character they play? I THINK SO!

what I want for Fortune's j.HP:

Make a balance between old knockback and new knockback. Retail goes too high and beta goes too low.
I don't mind the lower damage, and I don't care whether you can combo into head spike.

Keep -2 startup
Keep higher hitstun (vs the lower hitstun that was given)
I just want to be able to combo into mediums from j.HP.
 
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Now the s.hp after axekick pretty reliable, I'm really enjoying this.
 
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Sooo... what are the chances of at least j.MK being able to combo into headspike? I mean, we can do it off a c.HP and I even have a combo with an assist that I can do it with, but it just doesn't feel as natural as just hitting into it like we could before.
 
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Just played and yes I confirm I like this new j.HP. My combos are not very creative but I can do j.LK>j.HP>ADC>j.LK>j.HP>MK El Gato way easier than before and I like that.
As I suck doing PBGC I didn't really suffered from vulnerable Fiber startup tonight. I was sad for not being able to combo after head-on Cat Scratch Fever but I like that it forces me to cancel into Cat Strike. More creative.
In training I still managed to combo j.HP into Cat Spike sometimes though.

That is for my tonight's point of view.
 
RemiKz said:
Sooo... what are the chances of at least j.MK being able to combo into headspike? I mean, we can do it off a c.HP and I even have a combo with an assist that I can do it with, but it just doesn't feel as natural as just hitting into it like we could before.
Nope.
If I could take it away from c.HP I would do that tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo maybe I can...
 
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So how much combo damage does Fortune actually lose from this change? Do the new combo routes make up for it?
 
Mike_Z said:
Nope.
If I could take it away from c.HP I would do that tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo maybe I can...
:(
Jason said:
So how much combo damage does Fortune actually lose from this change? Do the new combo routes make up for it?
she still does about the same as before (if not more) for one meter
 
Jason said:
So how much combo damage does Fortune actually lose from this change? Do the new combo routes make up for it?
Her damage is basically the same. Good combos range from 7.2k - 7.6k midscreen with one bar. She lost her 7.9k combo that transitioned from head-on to headless, however.

Mike_Z said:
Nope.
If I could take it away from c.HP I would do that tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo maybe I can...
What is it that you dislike about the form transition combos? Or is it just that you want people to do Feral Edge > sneeze?
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
What is it that you dislike about the form transition combos?
I, while not Mike, dislike them because being able to switch between the head states super easily doesn't sit well with me. At the very least I think taking the head off should be a little more arduous than doing it for free in a combo since putting it back on is a pain too. It sort of enforces a "do I want to switch to head-on/headless" dilemma and, with the current experiments making a notably worthwhile set of differences between the states, that's what I would really like to see for Fortune's play-style.

I can easily see Mike's reason just being something about disliking the extra damage though, so I apologise for jumping in where I wasn't specifically involved.
 
You do LESS damage removing the head mid combo now.

And I really liked being able to switch mid combo because it encourages me to play both. Why alienate people to using only one version of her? Not to mention that headless already received a laundry list of nerfs recently, including the fiber uppercut losing invincibility which is kind of a big thing.

EDIT: In regards to the feral edge > sneeze thing, my only problem with having to do that every time is that the follow-up can be inconsistent depending on the character you are hitting or your proximity to them sending them too far away. The fact that you get overall less damage now for removing the head mid-combo should already be a good enough trade off.
 
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