• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

Rising Thunder [PC]

The supers are a huge non issue for me.

They function identically to the way ultras work in practice, and so we are simply nitpicking the details and fringe cases.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Covenant and Skullmageddon
Agreed 100%. I despise them, and I don't like them in RI (it is one of my biggest criticisms of the game). Nothing like winning the fight only to lose to a moronicly mashed Ultra.

I just don't understand the complaining about how they work, since they are functionally the same.
 
I understand how they work, I just hate them. I think invincibility on all supers is really stupid, especially one button supers. They really shouldn't be like ultras supers, they should be balanced around the unique control system.
 
well there is no invincibility on Talos' ultra. people can just counter mash to kick Talos in the balls. in fact all of Talos' resets can be stuff by a DP. even if you try to bait it out a person can just KA their DP on block and jump over you with a Cross Up, leading them to a safe block string.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dead and Vagplus
Ninja said:
well there is no invincibility on Talos' ultra. people can just counter mash to kick Talos in the balls. in fact all of Talos' resets can be stuff by a DP. even if you try to bait it out a person can just KA their DP on block and jump over you with a Cross Up, leading them to a safe block string.

i feel sick
 
You feel sick?

YOU?

have you ever done a set up on a Chel and you were gonna Ultra her ass, but she mashes her super and somehow gets away with it because her move has invincibility/ frame slow down. Where as Talos has frame freeze, which is dumb. but no frame invul. during the first 5 frames of his startup.
 
Ninja said:
You feel sick?

YOU?

have you ever done a set up on a Chel and you were gonna Ultra her ass, but she mashes her super and somehow gets away with it because her move has invincibility/ frame slow down. Where as Talos has frame freeze, which is dumb. but no frame invul. during the first 5 frames of his startup.

Actually, you're probably well and invincible all the way through your active frames. The problem is the invuln of other moves are far longer than that. Talos' Overdrive will eat through stray pokes, but lose to invincible moves.
 
Invuln on supers is the real tradition for better or worse. Uncountably many SFIV Ultras blow right through things like fireball and punish them at full screen.

SG has plenty of super invuln frames throughout it. In my experience, most fighters do too.

I don't mind them in a lot of games, but I do hate it in RI because it's just a shitty comeback mechanic for the most part.

And Talos is fine. You never want to be the first person to mash out an Ultra (without KA). If you are having a hard time landing his Ultra... just combo into it.

Last I was reading, Talos is looking pretty solid since his new variant. Some are calling him top 2/3 even (what with all of the DP changes).
 
  • Like
Reactions: dead
Ninja said:
You feel sick?Where as Talos has frame freeze, which is dumb. but no frame invul. during the first 5 frames of his startup.


That's next level dumb. Like, not having any invuln when everyone else's does is dumb, and having super freeze when no one else does is also dumb. So it's dumb on top of dumb.
 
alexpi said:
That's next level dumb. Like, not having any invuln when everyone else's does is dumb, and having super freeze when no one else does is also dumb. So it's dumb on top of dumb.
He does have invuln.
 
well, he does but it's so little compared to the rest of the cast it doesn't matter. In a contest of normals yeah he can beat em sorta.... In a contest of specials that have invincible frames it's a 60/40 chance, and in a contest of Ultras other than he will always lose if he either starts the first ultra or if he is countering an ultra. So yeah in the end it's dumb and it sucks.
 
His is fine, and at neutral it is used differently than Crow's which is used differently than Chel's which is used differently than Edge/Dauntless's which is used differently than Vlads.

You want to see terrible super to have at neutral? Try Chel's without KA...
 
Fun fact, if you dp2 xx KA and immediately super, they'll bounce out after the first hit.
 
Yeah, rising thunder is a special case, and if they're going to throw other conventions out the window they have to go all the way and be creative with other aspects of the game. I'm a huge fan of the single button specials and all that but it effects every other aspect of the game and I don't think they've fully taken that into account. Correct me but I believe kof has vulnerable supers? There's precedent for it. You can't defend tradition in a game that is anything but traditional.
 
I think KoF generally doesn't have moves that are invincible past the first active hitbox, meaning everything is trade-able.
 
I don't mind supers having invulnerability as a concept, i just don't like that all supers have invulnerability. Like, until today I had never tried using Chel's super as a reversal because I assumed a fireball super wasn't invincible. Thanks to this stupid new knowledge, I can do stuff like meaty fireball on their wakeup into super. If they dp, my invulnerability wins. If they don't, they have to eat the chip and i can KA cancel the super.
 
Sure, I'm late.

Spencer said:
In my experience, most SFIV Ultras are going to get blocked unless your opponent has committed to a super slow button.
They do not operate identically to Ultras in SF4. Ultras have startup AFTER the flash, not DURING.
There are some zero-frame-post-flash Ultras and a lot of zero-frame supers in SF4, that you can't block or avoid if you were in a position to be hit when the flash happened - for example, Zangief's UFAB is not jumpable or counter-super-able after the flash even if you were just standing next to him, and most Supers are not blockable post-flash if you were not already holding Back. The superflash itself is still just aesthetic; the game allows your character to interpolate their animation from "last frame" to "this frame" over the course of the superflash because it looks cool.
This is why SG has the "Skip Superflashes" option in training mode, to show they are just for style and don't impact gameplay.

The way Rising Thunder does it means the superflash is no longer purely aesthetic...it is not possible to HAVE a zero-frame super, where your opponent is not able to avoid it if they weren't airborne/blocking appropriately before the flash. And the big problem with that is that a superflash is much easier to react to than a DP.

For example, if you have a 4f DP, the opponent has 4f of real time to react. They're going to get hit unless they were anticipating it.
If you have a super that (let's say) allows the opponent to move for 4f of "game time" during the superflash, but the superflash is 120f long, that's 2 seconds of REAL TIME that the other player is given to react, even if the character only advances 4f of game-time, because as long as they are holding back by the end of that 120f they'll block it. So in effect they have 120f to react to your super, compared to 4f to react to your DP. NOBODY will get hit by that super unless it was a real punish. And considering supers cost meter, this is at the very least counterintuitive to players, because it makes supers mostly useless as a neutral-game tool.

[edit]
It also makes comboing into supers frustrating, because people are used to the superflash implying that if the opponent was in a position to get juggled by the super when the flash went off, it will properly juggle. In RT, since you can SEE THEM LAND during the superflash when you are powerless to do anything, it FEELS worse. The difference between an Ultra with 7f post-flash startup that whiffs as a juggle and an RT super with 7f during-flash startup is that the during-flash startup feels like it's the GAME's fault you missed, whereas the post-flash startup feels like it's YOUR fault.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Armageddon11, DapperEntity, New World Pope and 7 others
I've run into that last part a few times while experimenting with combo ideas... it's made one potential Vlad juggle not work. Seems at least that super has a good number of frames after the flash before it hits, at least against an opponent high in the air. Kinda wonder what the real frame data is.

Here's the overall results of the experimentation. Mostly Crow, some Vlad, and setups to more reliably get that hit-and-throw-on-same-frame bug on those plus Chel. Few other glitches too.

 
God, the number of times I've correctly read a move, DP'd xx KA super and had to watch as they were too low to the ground for the super to connect...
 
yay... oh and another thing when fighting Crow his projectiles can lock you into block animation even though the projectile isn't even close to you. It's stupid and Seth needs to fix that shit ASAP.

oh and the little thing that Crow can make unblockables with his projectile and a low attack.
 
Spencer said:
You want to see terrible super to have at neutral? Try Chel's without KA...
Can't you Fireball xx Super at like any point in the fireball startup? It also anti-airs.

Grangach said:
Yeah, rising thunder is a special case, and if they're going to throw other conventions out the window they have to go all the way and be creative with other aspects of the game. I'm a huge fan of the single button specials and all that but it effects every other aspect of the game and I don't think they've fully taken that into account. Correct me but I believe kof has vulnerable supers? There's precedent for it. You can't defend tradition in a game that is anything but traditional.

KOF has both.
Ninja said:
In a contest of normals yeah he can beat em sorta....
Or... you know... he beats them.

Ninja said:
In a contest of specials that have invincible frames it's a 60/40 chance, and in a contest of Ultras other than he will always lose if he either starts the first ultra or if he is countering an ultra. So yeah in the end it's dumb and it sucks.

60/40 chance? Is this dice? If you try to grab in their invuln frames, you lose. If you don't, you win. That's how fighting games work. That's how grabs should function.

Either way, I forgot a key detail. Normals still register during super freezes, which takes the worst parts we all hate about supers and combines them.
 
@Mike_Z

I'm not saying they are the same, I'm saying they are effectively the same with a handful of fringe cases that differ. You should still mostly be using them in a combo instead of using them raw. They still punish buttons with long recoveries that are already out. They still won't punish lights that are already out. We can list all of the fringe cases, sure... but the vast majority of the time they act the same as SFIV Ultras.

I also am completely unsure as to how Talos's Ultra works, and how/if it differs from the others. More will be revealed with a training mode. It seems like Krack might have a decent idea in any case.

@Ninja

How does Crow projectile create unblockables? Does it lock you into blocking high or something? The projectile itself is blocked mid.

@Krackatoa

It can be used as an AA, but generally the timing is unbelievably strict or they have had to push a button in air. And yes, you can fireball > super with Chel. Helpful for things like punishing Dauntless's armored charge. Less helpful for throwing it out raw at neutral. The recovery on her super is brutal. My point was just, if people want to complain about Talos's super because it has issues just being thrown out... he's not the only one.
 
yeah it locks you into blocking high. and if timed with Crow's sweep or Special 2 you can't block it. So you either eat the projectile or get swiped with the low, either way you're in the fuck box of either being combo-ed or being placed in the same setup of trying to block both moves. oh and ontop of that if Crow is running with KA he can just jump cancel out of his low and cross you up if he wants to be a dick about it. You'll still be in either block or hit stun from the projectile so...
 
Spencer said:
It can be used as an AA, but generally the timing is unbelievably strict or they have had to push a button in air. And yes, you can fireball > super with Chel. Helpful for things like punishing Dauntless's armored charge. Less helpful for throwing it out raw at neutral. The recovery on her super is brutal. My point was just, if people want to complain about Talos's super because it has issues just being thrown out... he's not the only one.

Whenever I play her I anti-air with Fireball xx Slow Super if it's not super deep. You're not worried about trades because fireball startup disappears.

Also, I'm pretty sure you're not locked into your blocking animation and that there are no Crow unblockables...
 
Krackatoa said:
Also, I'm pretty sure you're not locked into your blocking animation and that there are no Crow unblockables...

Dear god, we need training mode.

Literally every argument in the last two pages would have been settled with 10 minutes in a good training mode.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Krackatoa
Spencer said:
I'm not saying they are the same, I'm saying they are effectively the same with a handful of fringe cases that differ. You should still mostly be using them in a combo instead of using them raw. They still punish buttons with long recoveries that are already out. They still won't punish lights that are already out. We can list all of the fringe cases, sure... but the vast majority of the time they act the same as SFIV Ultras.
That's like saying "3s uses juggle points" because it explains like 70% of how the game works and yet is completely wrong.
Not being able to have zero-frame post-flash supers is a pretty big deal, especially in a game with a command throw super. S'all I'm sayin'.
 
FakeangeL said:
You can, the problem is that the normals that you can use to combo into fireball are pretty damn limited. 6h 2m fireball, for example, doesn't combo.
I was talking about fireball xx super as an antiair at mid range, sorry.
 
So they made the kinetic bar visible to both players which is nice. Still would like to see move cooldowns too.
 
I've quit it until KA becomes a reasonable mechanic.

That shit sucked the fun from this game for me faster than MKX's netcode.

Patches look pretty reasonable though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mister machete and Pickles
i still like the fact that all of the different moves are just side-grades of each other. All of Edge's A special do the same shit upgrading his B Special you just have to use the A special in slightly different ways. Dauntless's alt specials are similar to each other. Vlad's new A special seems different enough in how it has a locked vertical position and it's huge delay for the missile to come. But that might be changed, the devs are experimenting with that move.

But overall the moves to me just feel like side-grades that change the way you play ever so slightly. sigh... is it so hard to want for something kinda interesting for a fighting game?
 
I'm happy with sidegrades personally. Making the new moves TOO drastically different would change the characters in ways that would be hard to balance, while making moves that are a straight downgrade is pointless, and moves that are a straight upgrade are effectively equivalent to just buffing the move. I'm also with Spencer though in that I'm having a very hard time sticking with this game with the current state of KA, it's pretty ridiculous right now especially in comparison to KD.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spencer
Talos is getting really screwed with the alternate attacks. s1.2 is a situational anti air that he really needed but not picking s1.1 makes s2.1 useless because you cant charge and fakeout. Armor isn't scary at all in this game, especially because his armored attacks are all super punishable. It's just like having an inferior dp. He needs a lariat instead of that terrible anti air grab, then at least he could trade with jump ins.
 
Grangach said:
at least he could trade with jump ins.

????

s1.2 is literally "tool to beat jumpins"
s2.1 is fine without s1.1 IMO since you can backdash cancel the charge for free if it's no good, it's not really a commitment

anyway seeing as talos is IMO like 2nd or 3rd best character in the game right now (though I haven't played on new patch yet is vlad top tier now?) I'm mostly OK with him not getting new moves yet at least. not sure why they want to keep giving more tools to edge though
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back