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Report Salty Updates 1 August 2014

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Valentine Double Cerebella
This week we have quite a few changes across the board. Some will rejoice, and some will quit Skullgirls for the tenth time in a row.

Find the changes below the break!

[prbreak]Read more...[/prbreak]
  • General Changes
    • New green flash effect for a PBGC.
    • Entourage (preset teams to macros) now works on PS3.
  • Filia
    • Level 3 projectile now no longer goes away when it comes into contact with another projectile.
    • Air Gregor Samson now causes sliding knockdown instead of a wallbounce.
  • Parasoul
    • Egret Guard now is active on the first frames, rather than a 10 frame startup (beta experiment).
    • Guard also now helps gain more meter per hit taken.
  • Ms. Fortune
    • Headroll is no longer throw invincible.
    • Headroll is no longer invincible off super.
    • Can now DHC off of Fortune's level 3, only if it connects.
  • Painwheel
    • Now has 1/4 the blockstun if blocking during unfly.
  • Valentine
    • After loading a vial, she can now either throw a shuriken by tapping a toss button, or a vial by holding said button (beta experiment).
  • Squigly
    • More hitpause on the beginning of Draugen Punch (for looks).
  • Fukua
    • Can now cancel Inevitable Snuggle into level 3 or 5.
  • Eliza
    • More hitboxes added to her attacks.
    • More colored frames.
    • New palette (Odette from Odin Sphere).
    • Divekick can no longer be used in the middle of a combo if your combo started out with it.
    • S.hp damage has been redistributed.
    • Can no longer juggle off a second s.hp chain, instead it restands opponent.
    • C.hp damage has been redistributed.
    • J.hk damage changed from 1000 to 900.
    • Level 5 no longer exists.
    • Sekhmet spends less meter when idle, but attacks with Sekhmet spend more meter.
    • Taunt now lets Sekhmet gain health equal to 1/4 damage dealt, instead of 1/2.
    • Sekhmet can now activate Lady of Slaughter next time she's out when you successfully taunt.
Video footage of this week's changes:
 
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  • Parasoul
    • Egret Guard now is active on the first frames, rather than a 10 frame startup (beta experiment).
    • Guard also now helps gain more meter per hit taken.

gwocw_fistpump_712481.gif
 
I'm just quitting for the first time.
 
Wait, did Mike ever say the reference to Eliza's palette..?

Odette from Odin Sphere
 
Fuck, I missed Salty.
 
I'm just quitting for the first time.

Before you go teach the other squigly players how to do stuff
 
You will not be missed. Guymelef, on the other hand...
I cry everytime
 
Just out of curiosity, What was Eliza's lvl 5?
 
There was Salty on Friday? I never got a notification D:
Just out of curiosity, What was Eliza's lvl 5?
Sekh lvl 1 but with more damage, less hits, lightning effects, and a pitch-black screen.
 
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Salty's on twitch.tv/ugclive now, in case you missed it.
That's what I'm following, and yet I didn't get an email.
 
No More level 5 lady of slaughter. I can no longer fancy sekhmet slaughter my friends.

I Quit.
 
Let's all just quit.
 
I was reading up on that painwheel unfly block thing and was wondering if it works somewhat like Instant Block in GG? And will there be a graphical effect when performed properly?
 
Aside from recovering from blockstun? No.
I sorta figured it would get something like that white flash like instant blocking in GG. Just as an indication that it happened.

And now time for me to go back to practicing PBGCs.
 
can beowulf have lightning instead?
 
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For Parasoul players, does she really need the extra meter gain? Has a parasoul ever been meter starved? In the matches I play, she seems to build meter really freaking quickly (not Peacock quickly, but I view that as a separate problem in itself). Is her meter gain in need of a buff especially when considering there are characters that can't build meter to save their life like my sweet, sweet PW?
 
haha guys press some buttons for mango man!

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For Parasoul players, does she really need the extra meter gain? Has a parasoul ever been meter starved? In the matches I play, she seems to build meter really freaking quickly (not Peacock quickly, but I view that as a separate problem in itself). Is her meter gain in need of a buff especially when considering there are characters that can't build meter to save their life like my sweet, sweet PW?

This buff is just to help her worst match ups, she doesn't really need this for basically anyone else in the cast besides peacock/fukua(not gonna get into semantics with other characters)

and besides painwheel got an amazing buff which will help her with everyone not just specifically two characters, so since you were complaining about the parasoul mu you can now instantly block her stuff

see everyone wins
 
That's what I'm following, and yet I didn't get an email.
you didn¡t get an email cause they started streaming very early that day and non-stop. Maybe you got an email for USF4 earlier that day.
 
No, she doesn't 'need' the metergain
It's more so that the Egret does "something"
The big buff is the 10f lessened startup anyway

And maybe some characters are supposed to be better at some things than other characters? Revolutionary concept, I'm aware~

No need for the snark.

I agree that some characters are supposed to be "better" than others at some things.

That doesn't mean that buffs and nerfs to their strengths don't warrant consideration.

Peacock's meter gain is so good, that in some cases you have half lost the match even if you manage to take her out as you are now potentially dealing with a fully stocked second character, with your own chipped-to-death character who is likely meter starved.

Truth be told, I actually think as people get better at the game, Peacock will be the one that scales most efficiently to the top. She has solid damage output, scaleable damage output (can chain Argus and specials together so that if she needs to kill, she can spend the meter to do so), a meterless reversal, good mobility, and generally an answer for most situations. Add to that, she has fantastic meter gain. Her only weakness is one that is coverable by an assist. She'd still be damn good, even with an average meter gain.

Meanwhile, let's say for instance that PWs meter gain is designed to be bad. We now have a point character that can't build meter making her niche as a point character. You have to build an entire team around her and after choosing a second, your choices for a third are hyper limited. Is it possible? Clearly. But, no doubt this is best reflected in how unpopular she seems to be and her position at the bottom of almost every tier list I have seen.

More to the point, meter gain shouldn't be one of those things that greatly differentiates one character from another (I'm okay with some variations on meter gain, of course). This is because it is usable by the whole team so meter gain on a point character affects every other character on the team meaning that a Double sitting behind a Peacock is going to auto-magically be better than a Double sitting behind a Painwheel.

@agent13

Show me how to use PWs buff... in a game... with a good person. It won't be as magic as you think. Most PW players (to include some very good players) still don't see a use for it. I'd guarantee that it affects the Parasoul/PW match-up almost zero.

Also, don't take this to mean that we aren't using it, trying to use it, looking for uses for it... we just aren't really finding any. There's a reason why the better version of it (the version we have now is slightly worse than a week ago) went for months with no one realizing it... because it doesn't have a big impact on any of our match-ups. @Dime_x , thoughts?
 
I'd rather deal with a doublecock then a doublewheel, do you know the nasty shit painwheel and double can do?

Literally car into hatred install is gross and if you have double with cilia slide the nasty things you can pull, nty
 
Doublewheel: Gimping yourself on assists.

P-Dub: Gimping yourself on meter.

There's a reason very few people run Painwheel at second/third for too long.

I think P-Dub works alright. PW doesn't have quite the same considerations with a team of two (hell, I run PW/Squig ffs). She still has her holes (shitty meter gain, no decent reversals) which aren't covered very well by a Double. If you are running slide, then you don't have them covered at all. Which means you are looking for that one good hit to end the game due to resets. I'm guessing you play Krackatoa a lot?

And in fairness anything > HI or anything > catheads is always nasty shit. Safe DHC are awesome.
 
I'm guessing you play Krackatoa a lot?

Lol, i'm in the same city and we play casuals a lot
that safe mixup he does drives me up a wall
 
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well has peacock and big band don't get hurt. not sure if Fukua's hurt but still... that's all i care about.
 
Truth be told, I actually think as people get better at the game, Peacock will be the one that scales most efficiently to the top.
This is super impossible to tell by any means.

Maybe people will actually learn how to approach against Peacock and she will become shit. Maybe Peacock players will actually learn that she is good at ranges closer than fullscreen and she will become the by far best character.
Maybe Painwheel players will find a way to properly use Unfly and Armor on top of her flight mobility to make her skyrocket on the tier list.
Maybe Parasoul players will learn that Tear Toss is actually kinda good - maybe someone will learn how to punish j.LP>j.HP on block and to just blow up j.HK Airtoss j.HK 30f gap pressure and her offence falls apart.
Maybe Double players will learn neutral game beyond j.HP. Maybe Double actually doesn't have a neutral game beyond j.HP, and she ends up as a char that gets snapped in relentlessly and then just dies because her defence is garbage.
Etc whatever

"I think that, when people get better, X happens" is pretty much just saying "I think that, when the game is played differently, X happens". And since these are unfounded random statements about a state of the game we currently have no idea about, X can literally be anything.

Maybe Japan was right all along and Parasoul actually has a 7-3 matchup against Peacock, with Valentine being a shitty character. Maybe not. Saying this doesn't really carry any weight.

She has a meterless reversal and generally an answer for most situations.
Peacocks main meterless reversal does not hit the air *at all*, gets LOW PROFILED, is throw vulnerable, and leads to Super. Her second meterless reversal option has 3f vuln startup, doesn't lead to anything, and is generally punishable even IF the opponent whiffs a move through your invinc frames. Her last reversal option is an invincible super that leads to absolutely nothing if you don't spend a 2nd bar, and is highly punishable if the opponent wasn't stuck in some attack.

Painwheels meterless reversal is actually an assortment of 8 different options, with varying startup vulnerability (on the ground as low as 3f, one air button with 2f), hitting relevant areas on the screen, and leading to full combos, but possibly losing to multihit attacks. Her other reversal options are a ground super that's postflash unblockable and has 14f invuln, one of the best air supers in the game, and a 2 bar invincible super that is not punishable at all and leads to obscene damage if it dodges an opponent's move.

Every character has "an answer for most situations", the question is how good that answer is.

Meanwhile, let's say for instance that PWs meter gain is designed to be bad. We now have a point character that can't build meter making her niche as a point character. You have to build an entire team around her and after choosing a second, your choices for a third are hyper limited. Is it possible? Clearly. But, no doubt this is best reflected in how unpopular she seems to be and her position at the bottom of almost every tier list I have seen.
Is PW a "niche" character that only functions with certain teammates? Yep.
Is that bad? ...Nope? Kinda the same is the case for Peacock, Valentine, Squigly, Eliza.

Which, btw, all aren't that popular.. aside from Peacock, as she's SUPER different from the rest of the cast, and a lot of people are willing to construct their team around Peacock, while a potential PW player might just go "Meh I'm happy with anything that can do fancy resets, if my PW team isn't that cool I'll play Filia instead".

More to the point, meter gain shouldn't be one of those things that greatly differentiates one character from another (I'm okay with some variations on meter gain, of course). This is because it is usable by the whole team so meter gain on a point character affects every other character on the team meaning that a Double sitting behind a Peacock is going to auto-magically be better than a Double sitting behind a Painwheel.
Most things affect a whole team.

A BigBand sitting on anchor is going to auto-magically make your point and second better than a Valentine would.
A 2nd position Filia is going to make your Peacock's defence and midrange poking SO MUCH scarier thanks to Mp.Bang xx Argus xx Gregor that people have to play an entirely different game against her compared to a Parasoul 2nd.
A Bella 3rd changes your Parasoul when cornered from "Dead" to "Hi, I have a Reversal that will randomly cross you up and put you in the corner in a hard knockdown state with Bella in your face", which forces the opponent to play tremendously more careful, which in turn gives your Parasoul the space she needs to play her game from a disadvantageous position
Etc

Yeah, high metergain on your point is cool, but constructing your team around your point building a ton of meter also makes you susceptible to lose the game on the spot if your gameplan gets disrupted (eg Double gets snapped in).

Painwheel isn't really optimal on any position (too low metergain for point, too bad assists for not-point), however at the same time she is also not SUBoptimal on any position. Anchor PW is still a character with one of the best DHCs in the game, and installed PW doesn't really require assists to help her in movement/defence/whatever.
 
you didn¡t get an email cause they started streaming very early that day and non-stop. Maybe you got an email for USF4 earlier that day.
I found the issue. I deselected ugclive from receiving emails. I don't know I did that in the first place.
 
@IsaVulpes

My point about Peacock was just that she has a lot of strengths and her weaknesses are shared by others in the cast. One of the great criticisms of her is that if you get caught, her situation gets infinitely worse... which leads me to her reversal options. She has them (well... it). Are they the best? No. But they sure beat the hell out of the handful who don't get them at all. In any case, you are right. I can't possibly know any of that. It was pure speculation. Think of it more as my pointing at the backwall and calling my shot.

PWs "reversal" options have vulnerable start up frames. They also have zero invulnerable active frames. They are not mashable, and the are also throwable. In a sense, that is quite the opposite of an invulnerable reversal option. In fact, they often function completely differently. You are more likely to bait an attack than use them after having been hit. There are obviously exceptions, but as a true reversal, they fall flat. I feel like I should make it clear that they function quite well at what they do (anyone who's divekicked into a charged c.mp will attest to that), but they are no substitute for an invuln assist which is why you see PW teams built around invuln assists (generally).

And yes, assists affect the team, but not in the way meter gain does. Putting BB on assist comes with inherent risks (happy birthdays, increased damage, lock out, and on). You pay no such risk for having great meter gain. It is a net positive in all situations ever. "I wish my meter gain wasn't so damn good" - said no person ever.

And I'd be fine if PW was average at every position on a team. Generally though, her major distinction is simply that she isn't the worst choice while still remaining close to the bottom. She has a safe DHC, and if that's what you want to go with... pick Double. She's okay on point, but can't really carry a team due to poor meter gain... so pick Val. The people playing PW are playing her generally for aesthetic reasons and that is about it. If she didn't have such a great design, she'd be almost completely unpicked.
 
Let's just buff everyone to the point of broken, so no one is broken.
 
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It isn't necessarily a bad way to balance things in some genres. It is the Dota/LoL balancing method. In Dota, "everything is OP so nothing is OP" is kind of a common sentiment.

In LoL, it is more common to see things tuned down.

For example, Ashe's arrow is 4 seconds at max stun value (it scales) on an 80 second cool down. Meanwhile in Dota, Mirana has a 5 second stun (it also scales) on a 17 second cooldown.

In any case (and I know you were probably being facetious), there will always be tiers no matter the balance style (though this shouldn't be used as an excuse in any game not to try and balance shitty and/or OP characters).
 
No, they did that in marvel and look what happened
but the good guilty gear games tho