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SG Mobile - Strategy Discussion

Zidiane

Zidiane

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Cerebella
With customizing and deck building, there will of course be optimal outfits and superior sets. Talk about any synergy between cards or characters or abilities here.
 
Zidiane said:
With customizing and deck building, there will of course be optimal outfits and superior sets. Talk about any synergy between cards or characters or abilities here.

Thanks for starting this thread! A couple of quick notes that may help:

SIGNATURE ABILITIES
Each character has a Signature Ability (which is purchasable at Level 10) that opens the door for a number of synergy opportunities. For example: Peacock (Rerun)'s Ensemble Cast speeds up Tag In times, which pairs well with Big Band (Flat)'s Second Wind (which grants him regen on Tag In).

Although we'd prefer you level up "naturally", you can level up characters by tapping on their level on the Character Details screen.

MULTI CHARACTER COMBOS
Beyond that, you'll notice that some characters combo more cleanly into each others movesets than others (e.g. Peacock and Cerebella have Tag In's that are well suited to combo off of certain attacks). Experiment and let us know what you think!
 
dapurplesharpie said:
Nerd.
oooooo got em.

but on a serious note:

Yo I'm super interested in strategy of Which characters work together the best, what special moves would work? breaking apart the meta behind team building looks to be fun. Part of me is looking at how different effects work together like Bleed and Regeneration and that maybe a character once has bleed on them-self builds over time, idk.

can't wait for some people to break down the beta [gonna have to wait for that beta key...]
 
Some things I'm looking at through various character trees. They're the bronze characters. I have no clue if silver or gold characters are different.

Bella gains +45% damage on all grabs, and so do her teammates. Killing with her lvl 3 (GRAB BAG?) gives armor for 10 seconds. Seems really good for characters who have grab supers (almost everyone? Peacock has the only lvl 3 grab after bella I think)

Filia gains +15% bleed on everything, +9% chance to crit if opponent is bleeding, +15% crit damage, +25% damage normally, and her lvl 3 gains +25% damage if opponent is bleeding. This seems really good.

Painwheel's signature says "convert 1 enemy buff to bleed", and she gets 3. Is she going to be debuffing people? That's insane, if so. She also has a bunch of stat boosts that break armor and drain opponent super meter, so she seems anti-everyone.

Edit: These percent are wrong. The percents scale as you buy them.
 
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Zidiane said:
Some things I'm looking at through various character trees. They're the bronze characters. I have no clue if silver or gold characters are different.

Bella gains +45% damage on all grabs, and so do her teammates. Killing with her lvl 3 (GRAB BAG?) gives armor for 10 seconds. Seems really good for characters who have grab supers (almost everyone? Peacock has the only lvl 3 grab after bella I think)

Filia gains +15% bleed on everything, +9% chance to crit if opponent is bleeding, +15% crit damage, +25% damage normally, and her lvl 3 gains +25% damage if opponent is bleeding. This seems really good.

Painwheel's signature says "convert 1 enemy buff to bleed", and she gets 3. Is she going to be debuffing people? That's insane, if so. She also has a bunch of stat boosts that break armor and drain opponent super meter, so she seems anti-everyone.

Glad to see someone's digging into the Skill Trees! They definitely need to be put through their paces - we've erred on the side of "interesting but OP" as opposed to "safe but meh" to start, but lots of tuning still to do.

One thing to note when looking at buffs/debuffs is that tagging out (either voluntarily OR getting struck by an Outtake Special Move) will strip ALL of your buffs AND debuffs (with a few exceptions like PERMANENT bonuses - which are mostly reserved for Event matches).

This has a few intended secondary effects:

1) Since there are several ways to counter them, we can go a little more extreme with buffs/debuffs
2) At higher level battles, managing Tag Ins (and leaving it "available" for potential debuffing) is very useful, which creates some interesting choices, especially as precious characters get low on health
3) Certain abilities are much more effective when fighting a team with 1 character (who can't Tag Out) vs a team with 3 characters. Similarly, with certain characters, once you get an opposing team down to one character, you can lean on them much more effectively.
4) At higher levels, ensuring you have one (or more) characters with an Outtake equipped becomes super useful. Who you give it to (and the opportunity cost of NOT having another Special Move equipped) creates some interesting choices.

Just the tip of the iceberg, but wanted to share some of our macro intentions for the tactical metagame as you progress. Hopefully it helps to put some of your projections in context. But by all means, keep poking holes!
 
MightyZug said:
Glad to see someone's digging into the Skill Trees! They definitely need to be put through their paces
In the spirit of letting us put the game through it's paces, could there be a debug vs mode that lets us test out all the characters with everything unlocked? I don't want to have to grind all these characters just to see if something is really OP or not.

One thing to note when looking at buffs/debuffs is that tagging out (either voluntarily OR getting struck by an Outtake Special Move) will strip ALL of your buffs AND debuffs (with a few exceptions like PERMANENT bonuses - which are mostly reserved for Event matches).
That's interesting. It doesn't matter much to Filia, who seems mostly stat boost, does it?

Also, are her bleed chances on every single hit of a combo she does? And does bleed stack?
 
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Zidiane said:
In the spirit of letting us put the game through it's paces, could there be a debug vs mode that lets us test out all the characters with everything unlocked?
This is a really good idea. There are some driven tester-types here that will help you strain every single link of the chain, and a full unlock mode would help them do that.
 
Zidiane said:
In the spirit of letting us put the game through it's paces, could there be a debug vs mode that lets us test out all the characters with everything unlocked? I don't want to have to grind all these characters just to see if something is really OP or not.

We'll look into exposing more DEBUG tools to facilitate this in an updated BETA build!

In the meantime, it's a little laborious, but you can just tap on the level of the character in the upper left corner of their Character Details screen and they will automatically Level Up. You'll still need to purchase all of the Skills independently (you can get extra gold by using the free Debug Coin Relic -- buy in bulk!), but that will get you to L50 maxed out characters in no time.
 
MightyZug said:
you can get extra gold by using the free Debug Coin Relic -- buy in bulk!
Oppening all those relics takes a really long time, btw. Any way to add a feature to skip the whole "unraveling what you got" process?
 
Zidiane said:
That's interesting. It doesn't matter much to Filia, who seems mostly stat boost, does it?

Yeah, this Filia variant is less susceptible to it than others.

Zidiane said:
Also, are her bleed chances on every single hit of a combo she does? And does bleed stack?

Every hit! Including multi-hit Blockbusters (like Gregor Samson). Bleed will stack up to 5x.
 
Zidiane said:
Oppening all those relics takes a really long time, btw. Any way to add a feature to skip the whole "unraveling what you got" process?

Already done! There's an OPEN X RELICS button in the lower right corner that will cut to the rewards screen (which still has some animations, but you can skip past them by interacting with the BACK or COLLECTION buttons.
 
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so that's -5% per second?

does the time also stack?

cause if so that's -5% per second for 25 seconds!
 
Wow, five times bleed? Does it stack for five seconds then end, or does each stack have it's own five seconds? Does each new bleed chance success renew the five seconds?
 
Zidiane said:
Wow, five times bleed? Does it stack for five seconds then end, or does each stack have it's own five seconds? Does each new bleed chance success renew the five seconds?

They execute in parallel, so each stack has its own 5s timer that "layers" on top of other Bleeds. Same logic applies to the other buffs.

NOTE: In addition to Tag Outs and specific debuff actions, a single REGEN buff will remove all BLEEDS (much like a single BLEED will remove all REGEN). As such, there are a number of counters available depending on your team build.
 
That seems actually too good. Filia can probably in one combo keep you in a state of bleed, thus higher crit chance, for almost every combo she does. I can't play around with it, but it sounds like that's how she'll... or, the basic bronze Filia would work like this.
 
Zidiane said:
That seems actually too good. Filia can probably in one combo keep you in a state of bleed, thus higher crit chance, for almost every combo she does. I can't play around with it, but it sounds like that's how she'll... or, the basic bronze Filia would work like this.

That's quite possible! Although you can conceivably tag out immediately afterwards to negate a good chunk of the BLEED damage. There are also Abilities that some characters have that will grant their teammates chances to proc REGEN, which makes them effective anti-BLEED teammates. All stuff we want to playtest!

Another element to bear in mind is that these are all Bronze characters, so their stats at Level 50 cap out much lower than Silver and Gold characters. As such, having perks like these helps to keep maxed out Bronze characters competitive, even when your collection is full of Silvers and Golds.

Similarly, the Marquee Abilities for Bronze Characters (the L50 bonuses that unlock at the end of the Skill Tree) will generally add bonuses that boost their teammates, making the more attractive to bring along in high level teams.

We want to ensure that - as much as possible - your entire Collection is potentially viable in high level play (provided you've built your team with a particular strategy in mind).
 
Hoo boy, just reading this already shows that there's SO MUCH to consider.
It sounds terrifying.
 
Harlequinn Cerebella reduces her teammates special cooldown by 35% and raises their special move damage by 20%. Silent Kill Valentine reduces CD by 25% (60% with Bella). Val has a move that has 100% chance to stun for 5 seconds at max level, with an effectively 6 second cooldown using this comp.

Raw Nerv Painwheel reduces her own CD by 15% (50% with that Bella). She doesn't have any stun moves, but she has a 12 second cooldown move that does 4 skulls of damage, which effectively should have 6 second cooldown and like 4.8 skulls of damage. She can also opt for a slightly less damaging move (3 skulls?) for a 10% heavy bleed chance.
 
*L30N1DAS* said:
Hoo boy, just reading this already shows that there's SO MUCH to consider.
It sounds terrifying.

FWIW, you're eased into it -- understanding these systems at a more advanced/nuanced level isn't really required until you get deeper in the game. :)
 
Zidiane said:
Harlequinn Cerebella reduces her teammates special cooldown by 35% and raises their special move damage by 20%. Silent Kill Valentine reduces CD by 25% (60% with Bella). Val has a move that has 100% chance to stun for 5 seconds at max level, with an effectively 6 second cooldown using this comp.

Raw Nerv Painwheel reduces her own CD by 15% (50% with that Bella). She doesn't have any stun moves, but she has a 12 second cooldown move that does 4 skulls of damage, which effectively should have 6 second cooldown and like 4.8 skulls of damage. She can also opt for a slightly less damaging move (3 skulls?) for a 10% heavy bleed chance.

Good finds all! You'll need to connect with the moves in order to maximize their effect, so those results aren't necessarily a given without the skill to execute them.

Beyond that, if need be we can potentially lower the Cooldown values, or set Cooldown to be an effect that doesn't compound (i.e. only the most significant benefit would apply). As noted before, we'd rather allow potentially OP functionality for now and then adjust.

We'll keep an eye on that particular loadout.
 
In that comp (which seems one of the best in the game rn), Val's vial stun is amazing. I didn't realize that you could stun people, hit them, and they would still be stunned. You can get a basic ABC combo into knockdown and then vial load. The next combo, ABC poison, ABC, ABC whatever you want (presumably another vial load, but you can just finish with super then load a vial)
 
I probably already know the answer but are videos of game play allowed? I kinda just want to see the different ways people are playing if they are willing to record it.
 
Pretty sure it's allowed. I don't have the capacity to record myself.

Honestly, much of the actual combat is pretty basic. You can't jump, you can only move forward with an attack, and you can choose to block or grab. Most of the variance is in the deck building.
 
Tank said:
I probably already know the answer but are videos of game play allowed? I kinda just want to see the different ways people are playing if they are willing to record it.

Videos are OK. We would just encourage you to note that this is still a Beta (and an offline version at that, so no online modes, etc), lots of bugs to fix and tuning to be done before it's ready to go live!

Zidiane said:
Honestly, much of the actual combat is pretty basic. You can't jump, you can only move forward with an attack, and you can choose to block or grab. Most of the variance is in the deck building.

It is much more simple (by design of course), although there's a fair amount of nuance there (although obviously not at the same level as the SG console game). When we play PvP internally in editor, its pretty competitive! We have a bunch of AI improvements coming down the pipe in the next month or so that will go a long ways towards demanding higher investment in tactical choices.
 
Is there any kind of training mode coming? It's really hard to tell what can and can't be punished, or what is and isn't a real pressure option.

Edit: also, max level bronze Bella is 1k battle points, and max level gold Bella is 8k. I'm not quite sure how viable ever picking anything that isn't gold is.
 
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Zidiane said:
Edit: also, max level bronze Bella is 1k battle points, and max level gold Bella is 8k. I'm not quite sure how viable ever picking anything that isn't gold is.
That's kind of a staple of FTP mobile games. Some cards/medals/characters/emblems that have a far lower drop rate are just flat out better than other easier to grab ones.

Question about Painwheel: I do ABC>launch>air combo. It seems that after the air juggle part Painwheel recovers slower than the opponent, which basically gives them a 100% free attack if I try to air juggle with her. Am I doing something completely wrong or is that a bug?
Also, how does one do her flying evade? It says something about swiping up twice to fly with her (I have never been able to fully read that tip as the loading screen closes so fast), but I've not gotten it to work yet.
 
Cellsai said:
That's kind of a staple of FTP mobile games. Some cards/medals/characters/emblems that have a far lower drop rate are just flat out better than other easier to grab ones.
I just thought it was implied before that it wasn't strictly pay2win and that players who weren't paying had a chance at taking down higher paying players.
 
Zidiane said:
Is there any kind of training mode coming? It's really hard to tell what can and can't be punished, or what is and isn't a real pressure option.

On our list of things to potentially add, but hard to provide a specific timeframe given some of our other goals.

Zidiane said:
Edit: also, max level bronze Bella is 1k battle points, and max level gold Bella is 8k. I'm not quite sure how viable ever picking anything that isn't gold is.

Looking forward to getting your thoughts on this in context of the full game when more high level content is available! The content we've provided has been focused on the lower-mid levels given the initial focus of the Beta.

Maximum Fighter Score does not necessarily = the best possible team. Sometimes it's better to have one character as your primary main and two characters that specifically support/augment that one character to maximize their effectiveness. That is intended to be the case even if everyone has all of the characters (which will rarely be the case).

Zidiane said:
I just thought it was implied before that it wasn't strictly pay2win and that players who weren't paying had a chance at taking down higher paying players.

There's a fair amount of extrapolation happening here on a small sample set. As far as your collection is concerned, "higher paying players" will simply be able to get a larger, more diverse collection more quickly. It still requires using those characters to level them up, and tactical deck building to ensure you have the best combination of characters available.

The goal is that diverse, cross tier teams (e.g. Bronze + Silver + Gold) can compete with "max teams" (e.g. Gold + Gold + Gold), although the latter will obviously have the stat advantage. The team with lower base stats will need to compensate with smart team building and mid-fight choices. Having stronger, rarer characters, will make that easier, but it's not the only path to success.

Cellsai said:
Question about Painwheel: I do ABC>launch>air combo. It seems that after the air juggle part Painwheel recovers slower than the opponent, which basically gives them a 100% free attack if I try to air juggle with her. Am I doing something completely wrong or is that a bug?

Yeah, someone noted that earlier as well. Sounds like a bug! We'll get it sorted out.

Cellsai said:
Also, how does one do her flying evade? It says something about swiping up twice to fly with her (I have never been able to fully read that tip as the loading screen closes so fast), but I've not gotten it to work yet.

Yeah, this was sadly a bug that stuck in the build. That Loading Tip was supposed to be removed -- we've moved Painwheel's Flying to her Skill Tree (but it's not fully enabled yet). Coming soon!
 
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MightyZug said:
Looking forward to getting your thoughts on this in context of the full game when more high level content is available! The content we've provided has been focused on the lower-mid levels given the initial focus of the Beta.
I'm dialing back to testing out bronze and silver characters out. I am really curious about the locked skill tree items. There's even one that can be bought but has no listed effects. There's also what looks like a powerful passive skill unlocked at the end of the tree, so can't wait to see what those are.

Maximum Fighter Score does not necessarily = the best possible team. Sometimes it's better to have one character as your primary main and two characters that specifically support/augment that one character to maximize their effectiveness. That is intended to be the case even if everyone has all of the characters (which will rarely be the case).
It seems like I can kill a weaker character in a combo. In a situation where I have three characters that do that to any bronze or silver character, it seems like playing with a handicap by not using the higher stat team. The stat difference just seems too high is all, especially with block damage. I've killed characters around 1.5k with straight chip damage.

It still requires using those characters to level them up, and tactical deck building to ensure you have the best combination of characters available.
If both players are optimizing and playing well, the one with higher stats will probably win. Or, that's what it seems like. It might be completely different after PvP.

Also, Gregor Samson as a super seems too good. It drops the opponent right in front of her so she can continue the combo. The other level 1 supers I've tried (most other supers period) don't do this.

Edit1: Hair Apparent Filia has a passive that reduces the cooldown for all teammates by 25%. Put her on a team with Harlequinn Cerebella and every special has a base cooldown reduction of 60% for everything. The highest any other character's personal cooldown reduction seems like it goes is 25% (I'm missing 3 characters, and might be overlooking something). Your team comp could leave you getting 85% CD reduction. If I experiment, I might be able to find a true infinite with this comp involving abc special repeat.

Edit2: It seems like the percents don't stack like they should. I set up that comp but that CDR wasn't as good as it should be. Uncertain if multiple stacks aren't allowed, or if it only applies one.

Edit3: Bronze Filia can easily rack up hits and get bleed stacks pretty consistently. ABC launch ABC french twist gregor samson. Builds the bar for the super, too. Pretty sure she can also do something like ABC Drillasionship, Gregor, dash attack, ABC launch, ABC, gregor samson. Haven't spent enough time to test it, but all the pieces are there for that to work. Which, with bleed stacking and crits, should demolish a lot (even gold characters).
 
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ggs Zidiane for all this in depth play. It's interesting reading it!

I'm very rapidly coming to the conclusion that once you get a silver character it feels like you're wasting time using a bronze. I'm assuming it's going to be the same when I get a gold.
The difference in stats between them is just so vast it feels like it would outweigh any strategic difference in loadouts.

re: Big Band. Is it even possible to ABC>Launch with him? It seems like there's a gap where the opponent can do specials so I can't reliably launch them. Am I doing something wrong here?
 
Cellsai said:
re: Big Band. Is it even possible to ABC>Launch with him? It seems like there's a gap where the opponent can do specials so I can't reliably launch them. Am I doing something wrong here?
Yeah, I don't think it properly combos. Hard to tell for sure since the combo counter will continue if they just don't block, I don't know if that's just always what happens with it or if it just has tight timing that can sometimes combo but easily be dropped. But I've also been able to block opposing Bands doing it to me, so I doubt they're just dropping it too. HV mentioned possibly making the combo counter work like ArcSys games where it'll denote a real combo vs. one they could've escaped but didn't, so I guess we can check for sure if they add that.

As for combos that do work, one really useful bit of tech I've found is you can do your ground 123 after a launcher if you delay your next input with just the right timing. You have to be careful not to buffer any extra inputs, mash too hard and you'll get the air combo. You want to catch them just before they land, I assume if you're late enough to let them land it's not a real combo (but again, can't tell for sure Edit: Definitely not, I can tell by the fact that another launcher works again). This allows for a lot more things that wouldn't work after air combo, and you don't even need to use your OTG (yet)!

For most things that already work from your standard air combo into OTG, try this instead in the corner for a little extra damage (I think this is more or less universal, besides Band having to skip everything before up Edit: Doesn't look like it works with Bella or Val):

forward, ground 123, up, ground 123, forwardx2, [insert OTG finisher]

At midscreen or for things that whiff when you try to OTG, just do forwardx1 or skip that entirely and see what else now works that didn't before. I think you can get almost any super to combo off this besides ones that start with a launcher (since they never work after you've already launched once).

(When are we getting a training mode? Labwork is kind of hard without it, which is why I'm leaving how to finish this combo template as an exercise for the reader.)
 
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missingno said:
As for combos that do work, one really useful bit of tech I've found is you can do your ground 123 after a launcher if you delay your next input with just the right timing.
Aye, I've been doing this with Painwheel a bunch since her air juggle is totally unsafe.
 
Reading all this thread reminds me of playing Eredan Arena for some reason.. It's pvp card game, where you build your team of 5 cards. There are characters buffing it self, cards buffing others, cards debuffing enemy, heals, armor, direct dmg - all kind of effects. There are very strong cards that almost always guarantees 1 v 1 win. The thing is if you expect it be played, you can play your week card with alot of buffs, lose 1 point, but win 2 next duels. You need take 3 out of 5 duels to score victory. Strong cards (aka Gold) is hard to get, but you can totaly make a succesful team playing around strong cards.
 
Upon further experimentation, launcher into ground chain might not be as good as previously thought for some characters. It appears that if at any point your ground chain causes them to land, it's not actually a true combo anymore, you can tell by the fact that you can launch them again. I've never actually seen the AI block or punish this, so right now you can just abuse this anyway by looping it indefinitely, but it's something to keep in mind if you're trying to craft real combos.

AFAIK here's as far as it can actually work as a true combo:
Peacock: launch, ground 12 (Have to catch them fairly early to get the second hit without them landing.)
Painwheel: launch, ground 1 (Yup, that's all you can really get. As if poor PW didn't have it hard enough.)
Band: launch, ground 123, SSJ (Timing is strict but it can work.)
Filia: launch, ground 123, sweep, Drill Tempered (This is damn good! Tack forward, ground 123 onto the beginning and you'll build a full bar in time for the super. I assume Gregor should work too.)
Bella, Val: Can't seem to catch anyone in the air at all.

Going back to air chains and what you can do with those, found that in the corner Bella forwardx2 can actually OTG some of the cast, but unfortunately it's not universal.
forward, ground 123, launch, air 123, forwardx2, Dynamo/Diamonds are Forever (Have to be very fast. IIRC it works on Band, Bella, Painwheel, whiffs on Eliza or Parasoul. Not sure about the rest of the cast.)
forward, ground 123, Diamond Drop, forwardx2 (This one does work on Eliza on the other hand.)
 
What am I supposed to do against Bella with Ultimate Showstopper? Unlike other command grabs she'll run all the way up from full screen, so I can't backdash out of range. And of course the expected way to avoid command grabs, jumping, doesn't exist.
 
missingno said:
What am I supposed to do against Bella with Ultimate Showstopper? Unlike other command grabs she'll run all the way up from full screen, so I can't backdash out of range. And of course the expected way to avoid command grabs, jumping, doesn't exist.

I just sacrifice a weaker or low HP character on my team to deal with blockbusters that are pretty much unavoidable & guaranteed KO. Usually I win the fight way before the enemy gets enough hits and time to fully charge blockbusters that powerful. And this was in quick play too where the A.I. aren't a sleepwalk where I can win with 1 finger just by swiping and tapping lol
 
missingno said:
What am I supposed to do against Bella with Ultimate Showstopper? Unlike other command grabs she'll run all the way up from full screen, so I can't backdash out of range. And of course the expected way to avoid command grabs, jumping, doesn't exist.
Is it possible to counter the command grab with a projectile of some sort? Specials like George's Day Out seem like they'd be useful to counter with.
 
I don't know if anything's changed in the soft launch version since I last played, but Ultimate Showstopper and all other supers were invincible so you can't stuff them. And I don't think there are any 0f projectiles, so even if they weren't invincible that wouldn't help you against a meaty setup or anything with enough frame advantage.
 
The A.I. managed to dodge Parasoul's Silent Scope blockbuster by using that burst move. But I don't think it would work against more powerful ones like Good Fellows, Fenrir Drive, Ultimate Showstopper, etc. The best way I found to counter them is to just win the fight before they can charge up those types of BBs.
 
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