Skullgirls Inspired Jazz Instrumental

[NEOMERCER]

So first of all WOW this is awesome to finally see the forums operating. I know some people might be like, "What are you talking about they have been up for forever?" And that may actually be true but me personally I visited the Skullgirls website pretty frequently after it was originally released on PSN and a lot of the site was still under construction so I kind of lost interest in the site but of course continued to play the game and the Encore edition as well since it's release. Anyways this is of course my first time posting to the Skullgirls forums and so I apologize if I make incorrect use of any of the threads please re-direct me to the proper one if that ends up being the case. With that being said I hope to engage in conversation with more of you and get involved with the rest of the Skullgirls community!
As for this particular post I wanted to share a special Skullgirls "Jazz/Big Band" type instrumental that I produced not to long ago. It was the first time I had ever used the program Logic Pro X on a Mac and it was also my first time with a Midi Controller keyboard so please excuse it's simplicity ha ha. I also do not play piano. I do play a little guitar and do have some prior experience with producing music on my PSP with Rockstar and Timbaland's Beaterator software xD. I hope you guys enjoy "Shimmering Light". I am currently looking into producing a Contrast game inspired track as well as a Transistor track and then rounding back to Skullgirls most likely and quite possibly a Persona inspired track. Again, I hope to talk with more of you soon! Thank you! -NEO OH and Headphones are recommended!

Link:

 

[Kai]

While it's clear that you've little musical experience (and you've admitted as much), I'll still offer my critique. It lacked much in the way of musicality, frankly. The repeating high piano part panned to the right was far too simple, and it should have been what provided the track it's melodic tone, but it just ended up being another repeating part (and a jarring one at that). If you're not a piano player, that's fine, but at least go in and write a good part in the piano roll.

Focus on:

1. Varied automation - the volume on a lot of the piano work was too samey, it didn't sound very dynamic/human.
   
2. Changing drum patterns - change up the drums, it adds a lot to a piece.
   
3. Using your strongest VSTs - those horns sounded fake, as most virtual horns do. Either work on the knobs to achieve better results, or drop them.

Don't let anyone tell you this was good. It was not. You need lots of practice, but I think you'll be happy to reach that day when you look at this and feel embarrassed (as most musicians do of their first works).

 

[NEOMERCER]

While it's clear that you've little musical experience (and you've admitted as much), I'll still offer my critique. It lacked much in the way of musicality, frankly. The repeating high piano part panned to the right was far too simple, and it should have been what provided the track it's melodic tone, but it just ended up being another repeating part (and a jarring one at that). If you're not a piano player, that's fine, but at least go in and write a good part in the piano roll.

Focus on:

1. Varied automation - the volume on a lot of the piano work was too samey, it didn't sound very dynamic/human.
   
2. Changing drum patterns - change up the drums, it adds a lot to a piece.
   
3. Using your strongest VSTs - those horns sounded fake, as most virtual horns do. Either work on the knobs to achieve better results, or drop them.

Don't let anyone tell you this was good. It was not. You need lots of practice, but I think you'll be happy to reach that day when you look at this and feel embarrassed (as most musicians do of their first works).

I think the "Don't let anyone tell you this was good." part was a bit extreme. I'm all for constructive criticism and I appreciate the other points you pointed out and yes I for one know all about looking back at previous work and thinking good god what did I do there? I am a video editor. I make trailers for games and used to work on AMV's and when I look at my previous work sometimes I have to laugh. Music is a hobby though and like I said before I don't have much "practical" music experience. Which however, doesn't mean I can't come up with something even better because I know I have the ears and feel for music but I know I could do even better if I actually knew how to play the piano. But on the other hand this was supposed to be an instrumental for Skullgirls and that means it's supposed to be somewhat repetitive because it's background music that needs to be able to loop. Like the Battle music in RPG's. I did try to address the repetitive nature somewhat in the middle of the song with the slight change in melody and added strings. Thanks for the feedback though I appreciate you taking the time to listen to my work.

 

[Rabeye]

I didnt get a jazzy feel from this. Idk how much music knowledge you have so im just gonna say it and i guess ask if anything. If you want to get a bit more "jazzy" feel you can try learning a blues scale. But basically my comment is that the song was 2d. Next time play around with the tempo and volume(crescendo/decrescendo). There are many ways to get a more dynamic feel and chose these ways because i felt these are easy to accomplish. Play around :3

 

[Kai]

I think the "Don't let anyone tell you this was good." part was a bit extreme.

It's just no-bullshit, is all. People are quick to offer praise as a means to avoid actually talking to you about your work, so you have to tune out people that say, "oh yeah, that was good, I liked it." They're just patting you on the head so you'll stop yapping.

Music is a hobby though and like I said before I don't have much "practical" music experience. Which however, doesn't mean I can't come up with something even better because I know I have the ears and feel for music but I know I could do even better if I actually knew how to play the piano.

"I could have come up with something better if I'd wanted to," is not a good response to concerns about bad songwriting. If you have the ears and the feel, we should have heard it. Get into that piano roll (which takes no skill on the piano) and show us.

But on the other hand this was supposed to be an instrumental for Skullgirls and that means it's supposed to be somewhat repetitive because it's background music that needs to be able to loop. Like the Battle music in RPG's. I did try to address the repetitive nature somewhat in the middle of the song with the slight change in melody and added strings.

You didn't even reach a fraction of the complexity and variation of the pieces in the game, so that's reasoning isn't going to fly.

It doesn't do any good to say, "thanks for the feedback though I appreciate you taking the time," if you don't actually care to listen to the feedback.

 

[CapnWTF]

I agree with Night Phyre on this, it is not good. BUT! BUT BUT, don't be discouraged, because this is definitely not bad, and you kind of had your work cut out for you here. You may not know this, but Jazz is considered one of the hardest genres of music to play because it is all over the damn place, most jazz pieces aren't repetitive at all, they're very expressive and that's what makes them unique (also there's a big difference between repetition and song structure)

The higher piano bit could do with some kind of variation. note timing, volume, even going up or down an octave here or there would make it much more interesting to listen to in my opinion. Mind you this is MY opinion, and I have very little knowledge of music theory (though I guess I have a little more than the average joe) though I do play guitar. Making music is hard man, so I think you did pretty well considering this is your first time doing jazz(and even if it isn't it's still pretty decent)

You have your pacing and mood set up, you just have to expand more on what you want to convey. Don't be discouraged at all by what Night Phyre is saying, he probably is just telling you what he wished people would have told him when he started.
I think if you put a little more time into this one it could turn into something great!

TL;DR Jazz is super hard, don't get discouraged, I don't know shit about shit, good luck

 

[NEOMERCER]

It's just no-bullshit, is all. People are quick to offer praise as a means to avoid actually talking to you about your work, so you have to tune out people that say, "oh yeah, that was good, I liked it." They're just patting you on the head so you'll stop yapping.


"I could have come up with something better if I'd wanted to," is not a good response to concerns about bad songwriting. If you have the ears and the feel, we should have heard it. Get into that piano roll (which takes no skill on the piano) and show us.


You didn't even reach a fraction of the complexity and variation of the pieces in the game, so that's reasoning isn't going to fly.

It doesn't do any good to say, "thanks for the feedback though I appreciate you taking the time," if you don't actually care to listen to the feedback.

Okay first of all I understand people have different ways of interacting with other people, in your case you're obviously a lot more upfront and blunt which may fly with some people but not everyone and I don't know if anyone has ever told you but I'd advise you to be careful on how you talk to people because someone less optimistic and mature may come under the assumption that you're being disrespectful or attacking them which is not a good way to come across in a forums list. But this isn't about attitude or manners it's about the piece and when I said I appreciated your feedback that was me being real. I don't kid around when it comes to being respectful to others and taking things with a grain of salt. I heard what you had to say and Rabeye had similar things to say which I am going to look into. And secondly I didn't say "I could have come up with something better if I wanted to." I said if I knew how to play the piano, then obviously the scope of the song would have ended up being much more complex. Which is also me saying that I've been in this situation before. Again like I said with my video editing. If I knew all that I know now back when I first started then yes, yes I know I could have made better videos, but it took time, practice and observing what professionals did. Which is where I'm going to make my own suggestion. If you actually want to help me along as a producer than why not enlighten me with some examples from your own work or suggest pieces that helped you grow. Then I will come back and allow you to listen to some other works. And you do have a point. I've been on YouTube for a while and the only things you hear are "Great job I love it!" Or "That was garbage." There is no in between. There is no constructive criticism most of the time. So again I really do actually appreciate the feedback.

 

[NEOMERCER]

I agree with Night Phyre on this, it is not good. BUT! BUT BUT, don't be discouraged, because this is definitely not bad, and you kind of had your work cut out for you here. You may not know this, but Jazz is considered one of the hardest genres of music to play because it is all over the damn place, most jazz pieces aren't repetitive at all, they're very expressive and that's what makes them unique (also there's a big difference between repetition and song structure)

The higher piano bit could do with some kind of variation. note timing, volume, even going up or down an octave here or there would make it much more interesting to listen to in my opinion. Mind you this is MY opinion, and I have very little knowledge of music theory (though I guess I have a little more than the average joe) though I do play guitar. Making music is hard man, so I think you did pretty well considering this is your first time doing jazz(and even if it isn't it's still pretty decent)

You have your pacing and mood set up, you just have to expand more on what you want to convey. Don't be discouraged at all by what Night Phyre is saying, he probably is just telling you what he wished people would have told him when he started.
I think if you put a little more time into this one it could turn into something great!

TL;DR Jazz is super hard, don't get discouraged, I don't know shit about shit, good luck

Thanks and see that is what I am trying to explain to Night, that I have the feel for music and when I say that I am saying I'm able to feel a melody out and to produce things a lot more cleanly and proficiently then as you would put it "the average joe" lol But again I wish I knew how to actually play piano because I just know that would open up so many more awesome possibilities. I'm not denying that the song is basic but I'm not going to say it's awful no. I believe as an artist that it's a good first effort. Especially for being my first time producing jazz, using Logic and it being made in a day. The library downtown offers a special media department that supplied the equipment and this was my first time using the facility and I only have a few hours to sit in on the Mac. And who knows maybe I will come back to it at some point and reevaluate its structure. Thanks for the feedback I do actually appreciate it.

 

[NEOMERCER]

I didnt get a jazzy feel from this. Idk how much music knowledge you have so im just gonna say it and i guess ask if anything. If you want to get a bit more "jazzy" feel you can try learning a blues scale. But basically my comment is that the song was 2d. Next time play around with the tempo and volume(crescendo/decrescendo). There are many ways to get a more dynamic feel and chose these ways because i felt these are easy to accomplish. Play around :3

I think that's a good suggestion. This is only just the beginning. I'm going to do my best to continue to make frequent use of the forums and get feedback from you guys because I think it is invaluable and will only help me grow as an artist. So thank you.

 

[loonieboy9697]

Well im no expert in Music since all i can do is make beats via FL Studio & Little Big Planet.

Like others said, i didn't get the jazzy feel. The piano in my opinion should've been tuned down a little.

But Overall, its very catchy... sounds like the BGM of a visualnovel or something lol.

 

[MysteriousJ]

That was good, I liked it.

What the heck, Night Phyre? There's stuff in the visual art section that burns my eyes, and I haven't seen anybody there being nearly that harsh. I mean, It was a good critique until that last line:

You need lots of practice, but I think you'll be happy to reach that day when you look at this and feel embarrassed (as most musicians do of their first works).

If a painter said this, I would think he sounded like an unbelievably pompous asshole. Though I'm not a music guy, so I don't know, maybe it's different.

 

[NEOMERCER]

Well im no expert in Music since all i can do is make beats via FL Studio & Little Big Planet.

Like others said, i didn't get the jazzy feel. The piano in my opinion should've been tuned down a little.

But Overall, its very catchy... sounds like the BGM of a visualnovel or something lol.

I'm actually in the Media Lab right now and will be looking into incorporating some of the suggestions that have already been given. Thank you though.

 

[NEOMERCER]

That was good, I liked it.

What the heck, Night Phyre? There's stuff in the visual art section that burns my eyes, and I haven't seen anybody there being nearly that harsh. I mean, It was a good critique until that last line:

If a painter said this, I would think he sounded like an unbelievably pompous asshole. Though I'm not a music guy, so I don't know, maybe it's different.

As harsh as I believe Night was being initially (cause I honestly was not expecting such a descriptive critique) I still get what he's getting at, even though again, it may not be how I would have told someone but it is what it is.

 

[Kai]

What the heck, Night Phyre?

The greatest gift you can give a man is a hard truth.

 

[Bucky Barkley]

Don't let anyone tell you this was good. It was not. You need lots of practice, but I think you'll be happy to reach that day when you look at this and feel embarrassed (as most musicians do of their first works).

To be totally honest, I would love it if someone said this to me and then gave a good critique on how I could improve (as long as they have the knowledge and skills to back it up, of course). A person just starting out can make something passable, and while it may be good for where they currently are in their artistic journey, there is a big difference between passable and truly good. This kind of critique is blunt (and maybe a little hard to take), but honest. It is a good thing to hear and take to heart if you are serious about getting better. If you're just doing it for a hobby, and are perfectly happy with just being 'Okay' then it may be a bit much.

I don't really know if I should actually say anything about this particular piece, though, since I've only been taking music seriously for a little over a year now. But if I had to say anything, would say that I did like how it progressed in the beginning. It really felt like you were building up to something. It's just that that 'something' never showed up. But, ultimately, it wasn't bad at all. It was just a little safe and repetitive. Then again, what do I know? At least you had the guts to post your song.

 

[iLoli]

To be quite honest.
I don't know what you were going for in this piece.
If it was supposed to be just a cute little piece you put up for fan works, it accomplished it's job.

If you're trying to actually make music, then I guess you can pm me if you want and I'll try to help you out with the things I understand.

 

[MysteriousJ]

It's the "embarrassed" part that bugs me... Nobody should feel embarrassed for their lack of knowledge. You have to start somewhere, and in the future when you look back, you should feel proud of how far you've come, not embarrassed that you had the guts to put your work out in public, get critiques, and get better.

 

[NEOMERCER]

To be quite honest.
I don't know what you were going for in this piece.
If it was supposed to be just a cute little piece you put up for fan works, it accomplished it's job.

If you're trying to actually make music, then I guess you can pm me if you want and I'll try to help you out with the things I understand.

It was more so for fun. Just more of an experiment than really trying to produce anything to serious. I made it in a like a day but I'm going to be making more music in the future and of course I'll be spending a lot more time on those endeavors.

I did like how it progressed in the beginning. It really felt like you were building up to something. It's just that that 'something' never showed up./QUOTE]

I do have to agree with Bucky though. I knew I wanted to build upon the track more towards the end but I just couldn't figure out what instrument I wanted to lay down exactly and I didn't want to mess with the overall sound of the track.

 

[Cash]

I dont think Night Phyre was being "too harsh", me as a musician (kinda) know that this is true, you get embarassed by your very first works and its good because you can see how you improved as a musician. Telling the truth sometimes is kinda harsh, but you gotta accept it and move on and try to improve on you future songs, if this is just for "funzzies" or "lulz" then doesnt make much diference.

In my opinion this piano is completly off,the music too repetitive and lack of more rythm and variety, it doesnt give that feel of "progression" and thats one of the things that i love in Big Bands, if you want feedback you gotta be ready for this kind of feedback, but i like your iniciative of making SG themed songs, hope you improve.

 

[Ravenmael]

I do think Night Phyre was a little harsh (okay wayyy harsh), sort of like going into beginner lobbies, curb-stomping everyone, and then giving "learn to block overheads" as advice. It's true, and it's good advice, but might completely discourage someone. That said though, he's right about the hard truth part. It's a gift (that I believe could have been given a whole lot more gently without detracting from the message).

Now for criticism less vague than "not jazzy enough". As several have pointed out, jazz is HARD and a very varied genre. But if you're talking specifically about swing/big band, there are several relatively easy ways to fake it.

First, the drums. Your current toms beat can still serve as an intro, but it's best to use it sparingly and not throughout the whole piece. A very basic pattern you can use is a swing beat on the ride cymbal. I won't go into it in detail but I found a short video that should give you an idea. The pattern you want is at the very end (0:50 or so), but watch from the beginning because he starts with simpler patterns that the last one is built from.

Spoiler: Ride Pattern

Also, assuming a 4/4 time signature, you want the hi-hat on beats 2 & 4 instead of 1 & 3 like you did at the end. Use triplets to approximate swing, and make sure all your instruments follow it.

Next, the chords. That's the core of your piece, so you've gotta decide for yourself. You seem to have a total of.. one(?). That might work, provided you know how to pull it off, but I'd vary it a bit more.

The whole idea behind the bass in swing is to keep a very constant (once per beat/once every 2 beats), bouncing rhythm that keeps the music moving steadily (hence "walking"). Try that instead of the syncopated long notes you have now.

As for the horns, I disagree that the biggest issue is with the VST/AU/whatever plugin used. Although better sounding ones certainly do help, the reason why it's so fake is because horn players, or specifically big band horns, never play that way. Try less long holding notes, more short, accented hits. Bad virtual horns used right sound better than good virtual horns used wrong. Sometimes you've just gotta work with what comes bundled with your software.

Granted these simple formulae won't make it sound like the real thing. But at the very least, it might help make your piece a tad "jazzier". In learning a genre though, there's nothing better than to just sit down and listen, listen, listen. Judging by what you're trying to achieve so far, this might be a good reference:

Spoiler: Sing Sing Sing

Of course, if you're not trying to replicate swing/big band, feel free to disregard any/all of these. Keep at it and do come back with a v2.