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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

IsaVulpes said:
How did that cost Elda his PW? He didn't get punished for whiffing the super..

Fair enough, that's my bad. I was actually looking for a different video of it happening, but I couldn't find it.

The point is that it happens to all of us (including the best of us ie Elda), though the video caption is 100% wrong. I think it is easy to imagine a scenario in which Ken punished that fuck up though?
 
Ill throw my two cents in about fukua although im bad at the game.

What really got me upset at the first few nerfs was that it felt like both fukua's fireball and shadow game was hit pretty hard. You gotta admit some of the midweek patches gave off a very bad impression (colored shadows? fireball that were really slow on return) so I don't really blame the players for getting that upset. Some of us only play once a week and when we have time to discuss it looks like a clusterfuck of bitching.

Anyway's I went to rebel up and practiced with dawn for a bit and we got to play the 11/27 build and i got to say i dont mind any of the changes now. I was never the type of player to abuse the super knockdown but more of the player who would fullscreen fireball then on hit/block TK another h.fireball to cover my approach. That only mild nerf to the fireball spamming players. The shadow went from that horrid 11/15 patch to something more universally fitting so honestly now, I don't have a reason to complain about fukua anymore.

I was gonna not play her at all at rebel up but after i had a few seconds to mess around i felt right at home again.

Its gonna be awhile for the bitchfits to blow over, in the long run fukua had only slight quality of life (i think thats the term?) changes to specific playstyles and rolls.

TL;DR im happy
 
Spencer said:
I think it is easy to imagine a scenario in which Ken punished that fuck up though?
Install is 3+7, not punishable post-flash by throws or most things except point-blank lights or supers.
Thresher is the same 3 preflash frames but -16 on block so is punishable by airthrows etc. Plus you are already blocking it so you have more time to react, and can pushblock to make it even more negative.

I would argue Install is much harder to punish, myself.
 
Mike_Z said:
@Painwheel
Mike_Z said:
QCB+KK, when we already tried it, meant you have exactly 1f to get the motion correct otherwise you're off the ground, and it can result in flycancel normals if you're really bad. Is that preferable to QCT having to know whether you're in the air or not?


That's not as easy as Lenny, unfortunately. Also since I can decide, I would go with the general definition of "solid" for other projectiles anyway, which is "point or assist or Egret". So...prolly not.

@legendary j
I don't care how GOOD you are, that's irrelevant to this entire conversation so EVERYONE quit ragging on each other about skeelz.
If you are complaining it hurt your style and your style was not "repeated air fireballs lets goooo" then I very much would like to see a match of you, win or lose, to see what style it affects that was not that.
If your style was that, then I am sorry but the two things being addressed are sliding knockdown and that. And if you have nothing else to do with the character once you can't do that, then you weren't using most of what she had before for zoning anyway (and I doubt you'd find much more success playing anyone else, heh).

@MegamanDS
I think that's kinda what DreamEpitaph said, but it nullifies the point of the cooldown, not to mention is confusing, so no. Try shadows. C'mon Dan, you don't even USE multiple fireballs that much.
Alright....my "style" with Fukua was never an attempt to keep the opposing player locked to one side of the screen. She doesn't have the the tools for that (she isn't peacock). All Fukua can really do in terms of zoning is annoy the opposing player up until they reach her C.HP range. But because she has a cooldown on her fireball (none of the shadows work or are effective at anything less then 3/4 screen) the other player can either gain ground on fukua or put her at a disadvantage. Here's a key example why the cooldown hurts Fukua's game.......Lets say the other player jumps and is met with a ground H fireball from fukua and its blocked. The other player now has time to close the gap with little worry of another fireball. Fukua doesn't exactly shine at close range so her best bet would be to somehow get back into C.HP range. You could argue that you could use a shadow after the blocked fireball but all of those are too slow and can be punished (primarily to jumping attacks).
 
If only there was this really fucking big button you had in the air that could lead to 50/50's on block, huge confirms, and beat out almost everything below you once they got close.

Also stop playing SOLO and use your ASSISTS to cover space you can't with Fukua at that exact moment.

legendary j said:
The other player now has time to close the gap with little worry of another fireball.

Confirmed doesn't use shadows
 
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legendary j said:
You could argue that you could use a shadow after the blocked fireball but all of those are too slow and can be punished (primarily to jumping attacks).
[sHK(whiff) xx(after the initial step back) Shadow], and a whole new world opens up
 
Skarmand said:
If only there was this really fucking big button you had in the air that could lead to 50/50's on block, huge confirms, and beat out almost everything below you once they got close.

Also stop playing SOLO and use your ASSISTS to cover space you can't with Fukua at that exact moment.



Confirmed doesn't use shadows
Umm its called dp or dp assists. This will be my last reply to asshats.
 
Mike_Z said:
I would argue Install is much harder to punish, myself.

I'd agree. And getting punished for a baited Thresher is one thing. Getting punished for an HI that could have reversed as a Thresher is another thing.

Ultimately, while I would prefer an input change so there's no ambiguity whatsoever, it is merely a quality of life change that isn't a deal breaker by any means.

Also, what is throw start up? 7 right? I was getting throw a lot trying to see if blocked hk.pinion > HI was punishable by a throw. I teched it a few times, but usually got thrown by a dummy set to mash throw as a reversal. It is frame perfect I'm guessing?
 
Spencer said:
I'd agree. And getting punished for a baited Thresher is one thing. Getting punished for an HI that could have reversed as a Thresher is another thing.

Ultimately, while I would prefer an input change so there's no ambiguity whatsoever, it is merely a quality of life change that isn't a deal breaker by any means.

Also, what is throw start up? 7 right? I was getting throw a lot trying to see if blocked hk.pinion > HI was punishable by a throw. I teched it a few times, but usually got thrown by a dummy set to mash throw as a reversal. It is frame perfect I'm guessing?
Throw startup is 7, meaning you need to be -8 or worse to get punished. Pinion to HI is -5, because Pinion has some weird blockstun that lets them move like 8f before Painwheel, I really should fix that.
But anyway, -5 is not punishable by a throw or Fortune's s.LP or anything I remember offhand except SSJ.

legendary j said:
Here's a key example why the cooldown hurts Fukua's game.......Lets say the other player jumps and is met with a ground H fireball from fukua and its blocked. The other player now has time to close the gap with little worry of another fireball. Fukua doesn't exactly shine at close range so her best bet would be to somehow get back into C.HP range. You could argue that you could use a shadow after the blocked fireball but all of those are too slow and can be punished (primarily to jumping attacks).
This is a better answer than I expected! I do wish you had posted it a while ago instead of doing all that junk first.
(Fukua does have other tools to use in the holes, as other people have ungracefully pointed out, but that's not the point of this inquiry so I'm gonna ignore shadows to begin with.)

Let's take a look!
At round-start positions (1/2 screen), if the opponent jumps into an HP fireball, the wraith returns 4 frames after Fukua recovers, so you aren't really losing a lot. You are also +6, so you can start the next fireball 2f before they can move again, and it will come out 11f after that, which is too fast for anyone to reach you and stuff it, even a lowest chicken-blocked Filia dash cr.HP.
At round-start plus one Filia backdash (3/4 screen), if the opponent jumps into an HP fireball, the wraith returns 24 frames after Fukua recovers, and you are +18. That means you can throw a fireball 6f after they can move again. Fireball startup is 13f so that's still not too bad, your next fireball comes out at 19f and at that distance it takes Filia 25f just to wavedash to you.
At round-start plus two Filia backdashes (fullscreen), HP fireball is no longer anti-jump because they will jump over it.

It does indeed affect her fireball->fireball at about 3/4 screen, requiring you to wait about 24 additional frames. You're correct.

Now, to see if that truly breaks her zoning game or just requires a change of plan, let's un-ignore shadows.

At round-start, if you throw an M shadow after the blocked HP fireball, Filia can dash in and hit you before it reaches her. However, if you throw another fireball, it will reach her before she can hit you.
At round-start plus one Filia backdash, if you throw an M shadow after the blocked fireball, the shadow appears as the wraith returns to you, and is active and out on the screen 8f after Filia gets to move. As mentioned, she can't reach you for at least 25 frames, so here a shadow is completely safe from further advance and requires them to dodge or block it. M shadow at that range has Fukua recovering before it even goes active with an advantage of 35f at minimum, and the wraith has already returned, so you are free to throw another fireball any time and be at huge advantage for it. You can even back up to get more space first.
At round-start plus two Filia backdashes, which is just outside the range of M shadow, the same applies because you can begin another fireball before the M shadow goes active.

So my conclusion is forced to be, based on empirical evidence, that although the change affects fireball->fireball specifically, at close range you can throw another fireball with pretty much no delay, and at midrange she has another unpunishable viable zoning tactic that allows you to keep the opponent out just as effectively.

?
 
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I'd like to know Mike's opinion about creating another version for Val's mortuary drop, but faster, with less damage, and being a hitgrab instead of cmd grab.

I don't feel the need, but damn, she has a huge hitbox over her head that is not even used. Could be used to catch opponents trying to jump over you to get out of the corner, idk...
Also, QCT LP LK is not being used by her.
 
About how many things is Beowulf missing? Patch notes said that he has all his specials but not grab finishers and supers.

Mostly asking because it's rather difficult to break 7k damage midscreen (LK starter, no assist, 1 meter) with what he has now. Wondering if he will have a grab finisher or super that would address that or if he's going to have any damage changes. Would be nice if he could get in at least 1 headbutt off the c.MK grab.

Also, I assume he is also going to have a regular snapback attack, right? Would be rather crippling if he couldn't do a double snap like everyone else.
 
RemiKz said:
Also, I assume he is also going to have a regular snapback attack, right? Would be rather crippling if he couldn't do a double snap like everyone else.
I assume so since doing the motion for a snapback still costs a bar and does the snapback fade out effect; there's just no animation. I hope this isn't changed in the next week or so because I forgot about it until I read your post and I've been meaning to do it in a match as a super taunt.
 
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I think it's funnier to use resources for a taunt when those resources could be used for actual useful things. It's why I liked Wesker's taunt from UMVC3 because he puts his shades back on (negating the damage boost he gets for having his shades off) and he's just like "please, try harder".
 
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Skarmand said:
Mic drop is a normal right.
Cancel into snap back for cinematic pause and oomph just as the mic hits the ground.
You are a scientist of trolling people
 
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Colossi said:
I'd like to know Mike's opinion about creating another version for Val's mortuary drop, but faster, with less damage, and being a hitgrab instead of cmd grab.
No.
Colossi said:
I don't feel the need, but damn, she has a huge hitbox over her head that is not even used.
Said hitbox is used by her Lv3, which is the same frames.

RemiKz said:
Mostly asking because it's rather difficult to break 7k damage midscreen (LK starter, no assist, 1 meter) with what he has now. Wondering if he will have a grab finisher or super that would address that or if he's going to have any damage changes.
He's not done, and is missing the finishers that are for damage. :^P I am sure there will be damage changes if nothing else.
RemiKz said:
Also, I assume he is also going to have a regular snapback attack, right? Would be rather crippling if he couldn't do a double snap like everyone else.
Yep.
 
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Skarmand said:
Mic drop is a normal right.
Cancel into snap back for cinematic pause and oomph just as the mic hits the ground.
this is a man who knows true disrespect
 
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Is RDP on Install really that bad? I didn't notice any issues.

Are people just bad at DPs?

I have a fun suggestion plsplspls:

During Install, give PW the ability to cancel into armored normals 3-5 frames before the cinematic freeze is done, but no movement options, or blocking, or flight. This would allow you to do things like absorb incoming hits with Install again, or do some sick Install > Hatred Guard punishes. I miss busting out Install and Armor against things to survive chip finishes. Nothing was more fun than the "I'm not done yet" comeback attempts, where every other character would normally be toast.
 
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I have an idea. It's for solos and involves alpha counters.

In exchange for all red health, solo characters (and not the sole surviving member of a team) would be able to alpha counter. It's only possible if the solo character has red health and isn't possible after bursts. Basically, you push forward + tag, time stops like it does for a team alpha counter, and you get 10 frames (or however long alpha counter takes to tag in teammate) to input a move. Alternatively, solo characters would be limited to a single move that's chosen like assists on the character select screen.

Would that be too strong of a defensive mechanic? Does pbgc make it redundant? Is everybody already satisfied with team size balance? It's just a recurring thought that I don't remember ever putting out there.
 
Dhoppler said:
I have an idea. It's for solos and involves alpha counters.

In exchange for all red health, solo characters (and not the sole surviving member of a team) would be able to alpha counter. It's only possible if the solo character has red health and isn't possible after bursts. Basically, you push forward + tag, time stops like it does for a team alpha counter, and you get 10 frames (or however long alpha counter takes to tag in teammate) to input a move. Alternatively, solo characters would be limited to a single move that's chosen like assists on the character select screen.

Would that be too strong of a defensive mechanic? Does pbgc make it redundant? Is everybody already satisfied with team size balance? It's just a recurring thought that I don't remember ever putting out there.
I think it's a noble request, but solos can get a LOT more out of a hit confirmed reversal.

Well, that's what I think.

Edit: Now, a KOF-style blow back attack using the snap animations I'd be OK with as long as they also can't be followed up and are used exclusively to make some space (do no damage, are not stance/chair cancelable, are not super cancelable, cause techable knockdown, longer recovery to disallow follow-ups in the corner... You know, KOF).
 
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Blow backs, huh? That sounds a lot less devastating than what I was throwing out there. Much better idea.
 
Mike_Z said:
Oh yeah, did PW people ever like, talk about that? QCB, RDP, QCT, I don't care much...

My mistake for not being very vocal about it but yes, I do not enjoy the reverse RDP motion for Hatred Install. The only reasonable explanation for the change that I could see was to prevent people mashing for Thresher at a low height in the air from accidently receiving Hatred Install instead on the way down. Personally, I always thought of that situation as user error opposed to a bad motion choice for the supers.

So unless anyone wants to argue otherwise on the motion, I'm all for changing it back to QCT+KK.

Thanks to @fenster for tagging me in this thread so I could remember to say something!
 
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Dhoppler said:
I have an idea. It's for solos and involves alpha counters.

In exchange for all red health, solo characters (and not the sole surviving member of a team) would be able to alpha counter. It's only possible if the solo character has red health and isn't possible after bursts. Basically, you push forward + tag, time stops like it does for a team alpha counter, and you get 10 frames (or however long alpha counter takes to tag in teammate) to input a move. Alternatively, solo characters would be limited to a single move that's chosen like assists on the character select screen.

Would that be too strong of a defensive mechanic? Does pbgc make it redundant? Is everybody already satisfied with team size balance? It's just a recurring thought that I don't remember ever putting out there.
No. It's your choice to go solo. There is a cost-benefit analysis already done that Mike has implemented before the game was even released in April of 2012.
 
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Elda Taluda said:
So unless anyone wants to argue otherwise on the motion, I'm all for changing it back to QCT+KK.
THE MAN EVERYONE USES AS THE EXAMPLE FOR WHY THRESHER SHOULD GET THE MOTION CHANGED HAS SPOKEN, AND HE'S FINE WITH IT AS IT IS.
I must say, I am surprised.

I kinda prefer QCB mostly for the association with Fly, so let's try that oneeee more time and if it ruins fly too much then it's staying QCT.

End of discussion.
 
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I assume because you might accidentally get fly instead if you don't press both kick buttons?
 
Any input that won't result in accidental install when trying thresher when slightly too close to the ground is fine to me - either QCB or RDP is good.
 
Skarmand said:
Why does 214KK ruin fly?
214K~K means you are in the air from the 214K and then can't Install anymore due to being in the air, meaning if you don't hit the buttons for Install frame perfect, you don't get it.

If you made the first frame of fly grounded, then it wouldn't be able to avoid throws; and even if you made it throw invinc on the 1st frame, that would mean it behaves differently vs Airthrows than currently;
So fixing this isn't super easy.

Also, there's the possible problem that someone mashy tries to Fly->jLK *way* too fast and gets an accidental Install, much like some Peacocks try to do George-Cancels way too fast and get accidental Lennys.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Also, there's the possible problem that someone mashy tries to Fly->jLK *way* too fast and gets an accidental Install, much like some Peacocks try to do George-Cancels way too fast and get accidental Lennys.
Mostly this, I can give you an extra frame on Fly that'll put you back to the ground if you install.
 
Well I mean, if we should be hitting diagonal assists on the same frame every time, and those lead to happy birthdays when you mess it up, doing install during neutral when you're safe with an extra frame of leniency should be a cakewalk.

As little as I care about the input, super fly with sounds cool though so lets try that.
 
Can we make beo punch super not be unblockable from 3/4 or half screen?
 
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