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Spotlight Skullgirls with 6 Buttons or 8 Buttons?

Which setup do you use?

  • 6 buttons - Pad

    Votes: 10 5.7%

  • 7+ buttons - Pad

    Votes: 47 26.7%

  • 6 buttons - Stick

    Votes: 43 24.4%

  • 7+ buttons - Stick

    Votes: 66 37.5%

  • 6-8 button Hitbox

    Votes: 10 5.7%
  • Total voters
    176
Cellsai

Cellsai

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Recently, Skullgirls Encore made its first appearance in Japanese arcades for a weekend loctest in Tokyo and Osaka. During this event it was pointed out that standard fighting game arcade cabinets only have 6 buttons while many Skullgirls players prefer to use 8: six buttons for punches and kicks, then two extra 'macro' buttons with a combination of other buttons. This spun out into a full discussion on the subject which we think is worth its own news topic. I've included some of the highlights below.

Where do you stand on this point? Leave a comment with what you think and vote in the poll!

[prebreak]Keep reading and make your voice heard![/prebreak]The first few posts in this thread are the comments that started this discussion in the first place. They have all been copied directly from the original discussion in the location test news post, so read through them if you want to get up to speed! Please note that I have trimmed down some of the posts to keep them exactly on topic.

Also, special thanks to Foehammer for making the lovely sticks featured in the banner.
 
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Wait, people really play SG with macro buttons ON STICKS?!? o_O' I'd never thought there would be any advantage to be had from doing this.
 
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It's easier to press one button than try to find two diagonal buttons in the middle of a match?
 
But who actually tries to find buttons? Just treat it like a move, I dunno, like drill claw or lightning attack. I'm just saying that on stick people should learn default, for situations like this, not every cab will work like a mad catz stick (which is essentially a pad that's why it has extra buttons).

I even teach the people who play in arcade we have in the university not to use the PPP/KKK for ultra, since when they go to tournies, other cabs etc, they won't find these or the people they'll borrow sticks won't have 8 buttons etc. Better to be prepared for any situation than get very used to something that might get you killed in a match.

Also I mean no offense to people who use them, I was just honestly surprised. I'm sorry if that's how it sounded.
 
Do people really use macros on their sticks that much? I always thought that if I was on a stick life would be easier what with me being able to just hit the two buttons I want to hit simultaneously. Aren't your fingers always over the buttons anyway? Seems like more work to use macro buttons to me.
 
Dash macros are good for advancing while blocking and not accidentally throwing out a move. Of course, recently, it's been making me do random supers on accident.

Edited on 12/3/14 at 11:11 PM: Wait, why did my post get edited by a mod? I forget what I had said.
 
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Using assist macros allows you to empty jump plus assist against predicted dp assist calls/high priority pokes or reversals, it allows you to dash then assist, and allows you to downback plus assist.

All with the caveat that you will NEVER get out a normal, get that normal counterhit, and get combod and often happy birthdayed. The second thing that assist macros allows you to do is call assists in pressure situations via assist mash, and your assist will come out with the timing of a reversal everytime and you will never have to actually see yourself recover, and you will never get out a normal.

Like anything however there are ways around this, such as any successful mixup may result in a happy birthday against an assist masher.

Also... Since we get beat over the head by marvel... Marvel has a dedicated assist button as well, so macro assists are closer to how mvc2 is played since it is only 1 button to call assists in that game, though in mvc2 for whatever weird reason, assists only activate on neg edge.

But if you dont use assist macros, by all means continue to play that way if it suits you, but the numbers arent ever going to be in your favor as far as empty assist calls are concerned, or you wont be able to have an aggressive empty assist style... And empty assist is extremely powerful in the current game of sg.
 
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This whole macro argument reminds me of when MSH and MVC were rereleased as MVC:Origins and many veteran arcade players like SpiderDan were vehemently against dash macros being added to the game newer while players from GGPO demanded it. One of the main reasons being that one button dashes made stuff like Wolverine's dash infinite easier, and therefore affected the balance of the game.
 
d3v said:
This whole macro argument reminds me of when MSH and MVC were rereleased as MVC:Origins and many veteran arcade players like SpiderDan were vehemently against dash macros being added to the game newer while players from GGPO demanded it. One of the main reasons being that one button dashes made stuff like Wolverine's dash infinite easier, and therefore affected the balance of the game.
In SG, direction dashes can be held (F,[F]) up to 10f early and will buffer, while button dashes must be frame-perfect, so having dash macros wouldn't affect that. (^.^)

I'm not against people using macros per se, but since their primary purpose is to help pad players I won't put any additional effort into supporting them outside that setting, so I'd advise stick players to play without them since they may not always be available.

If I ran tournaments (hmm) I might consider adding a similar rule like in GG where macros are banned on sticks. :^P If I were especially cruel I could disable them for PS3 sticks in the PS4 version, since we can detect what type of hardware each controller is...
 
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I guess if your goal is to completely kill whatever remaining tournament scene there is, standardizing "you can't use macros for your assists after you've been using them for two and a half years" would be a pretty good way of doing that.

I can't imagine very many players being willing to re-learn their execution after playing the game for years because of a tournament rule change. Oh, and two-buttons same-frame on a diagonal is waaaaay harder than two buttons same row. I played calling assist 1 manually for about six months, and I still was never able to get "just assist, no normal with it" more than about half the time.
 
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Mike_Z said:
In SG, direction dashes can be held (F,[F]) up to 10f early and will buffer, while button dashes must be frame-perfect, so having dash macros wouldn't affect that. (^.^)

I'm not against people using macros per se, but since their primary purpose is to help pad players I won't put any additional effort into supporting them outside that setting, so I'd advise stick players to play without them since they may not always be available.

If I ran tournaments (hmm) I might consider adding a similar rule like in GG where macros are banned on sticks. :^P If I were especially cruel I could disable them for PS3 sticks in the PS4 version, since we can detect what type of hardware each controller is...
Well I don't think we're at the point where that's completely necessary since I don't believe the game is even close to having a situation like what MvC:O had where the general consensus was that 1 button dashes where affecting the game's balance.

On a somewhat related note, I do recall having a conversation with Mark (from MadCatz) about how he wish he could make a 6 button only stick, but that the market wouldn't really allow for it.
 
Would be pretty awkward to enforce a macro ban on stick this late in the game life where some people are too comfortable and conditioned into the luxury. Like telling them to stop eating fine food and wine suddenly have to go "poverty" diet . It won't go well. There isn't the drastic need for it either that skews the gameplay balance unless I missed a scenario of that happening before with SG. I personally never use macro unless on a pad because I find it would act as an enabler for me especially when I play different fighting games with different format standards/rules.
 
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----------Here's the end of the posts from the previous thread!----------​

Personally, I never use macros in any game because I often have to borrow sticks from others that may not have the same buttons as my own, and I often play in arcades. I never want to run into a situation where I rely on buttons at home that I cannot use in other situations.
 
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I use 10 (technically) all 6 face buttons, macros, and right stick, I really like using them it makes me feel more in control compared to SSFIV was on Xbox for me imo
 
I generally do everything without macros when it comes to fighting games. I just usually prefer button combinations over the ability to bind custom functions to particular buttons. I often find that macros force me to think more about the buttons I'm hitting and less about the functionality of the input itself.

That being said, I currently play Skullgirls on an 8 button stick and have macros set for assist calls. I originally played by calling assists without macros (as I do in other games), but at some point i decided to try using macros for assists and simply found it to be more comfortable. I have 6 buttons allocated specifically to normals, with 2 buttons only used for assist calls. This just makes sense to me. This also makes it easier for me to differentiate which assist i'm trying to use since the assist buttons are always the ones on the "far right" and in order from "top to bottom" rather than the "two diagonal buttons second and third from the left".

I think the reason I prefer macros for assists has more to do with my way of thinking and playing rather than difficulty in execution. I don't find calling assists to be any more physically difficult with or without macros. Rather, it just makes sense to me that 6 of my buttons are for attacking with my current character, while my other 2 buttons are for calling in my other characters for an assist. All I have to think about are my 6 attack buttons, then if I want to throw an assist out I just hit one of two buttons on the far right.

When it comes to things like game mechanics and movement, I pretty much refuse to use macros. I don't like using macros for things like dash, burst, supers, etc. as it tends to actually confuse me. Especially when I'm playing something such as a 4 button game like Persona. I find it much easier to just learn the button combinations rather than to bind the functions to my extra buttons, that way I don't have to think as much about how to use all of my buttons in more complex situations. Assists are pretty much the only things that I use macros for.
 
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Num7-9 are my punches. Num4-6 are my kicks. My layout is goofy enough as it is without having to worry about where to fit in more buttons.
 
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Issues regarding this have been discussed in SRK's Tech Talk before. On of the main reasons why you don't generally see a macro ban is that it would be a logistics nightmare to have to check each and every stick/config for macros.

With this in mind, doing this on a software level might be a game changer. This already happened in a way with MvC:O where it seems the OGs stopped the addition of dash macros and it could be interesting if @Mike_Z did it for PS3 sticks on the PS4 version. That said, the MvC thing was due to the fact that dash macros did give players using them a noticeable advantage. The question now is if one button assist macross give players using them an advantage as well, because if they do, the they should be banned.
 
I used to play without macros, but my scene convinced by pointing out that I rarely could get an assist with out a normal coming out. I had even less success while under pressure. After enough counter hits that led into happy birthdays I started training myself on using all eight buttons on my stick.

If macros were banned, I've gotten better at spacing and block strings that I'd be able to transition just fine. My pinky pops in weird ways anyways when I play too long nowadays with the macros anyways.
 
Literally the only thing I use macros for is dashing, Squigly's LK/MK battle opera and her stance cancels, aside from that, I probably would be comfortable with a 6 button stick.
 
eh i get lazy and just press a button instead of two.
i played solo fort for about 2 years now, not used to having a team/ assists. I rarely even use the assists.
 
PS1/DS4 Pad.
All 8 Buttons.
A1 MK+LP
A2 HK+MP

I cherry pick PP/Pad dashing depending on which one's simpler/better for the situation. Ground movement (including filia/fortune wavedashing) is almost always pad, airdashes are almost always PP with the exception of the jLK in Duck's Filia route, Val backdash > adc for quick highs, or Val airthrow > scalpels > adc jMK.
 
Verdant Brave said:
A six-button player on an eight-button stick still has access to all his options and can even ignore the extra buttons.
Or even be a big doofus like me and pop em out entirely
 
Mike_Z said:
If I ran tournaments (hmm) I might consider adding a similar rule like in GG where macros are banned on sticks. :^P If I were especially cruel I could disable them for PS3 sticks in the PS4 version, since we can detect what type of hardware each controller is...
i won't lie if you did that i would refuse to enter your tournaments. which doesn't really matter i guess since i don't live in socal anyways lol.

i use my macros for assists because i still find it very weird to hit diagonal buttons for assists. in vs games they have dedicated assist buttons so since that's what i played that's what i'm used to. i mean if this game could have dedicated assist buttons that would be great and i wouldn't care if macros went away but since that's not happening i'd be very upset if they were banned/somehow disabled
 
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I've been playing on stick for over 3 years and never used the extra 2 buttons in any fighting game. They are awkward to use
 
I thought that 8 buttons was the intended way for the game to be played considering that macros are both on by default AND set to assist by default, AND assists are where MVC2 assists would be if MCV2 has 6 attack buttons.

The only other game I use macros for is sf4 because ex_came_out_instead_of_ultra.gif.

I don't understand why pad players are allowed macros but stick players aren't in GG tournament, when that could very easily make high execution things much much MUCH easier on pad than on stick, for no real reason.

Pad is not a handicap. It is an alternate method of input.
 
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Most things (Emptyjump Assistcall etc) are an L2P issue on whether you are able to do them without accidental normals
My execution is godawful but I still hit it right 99% of the time, so I'm sure learning it to the extend of it being 100% isn't too hard
Main use for Macros is mashing assist I feel, where it is indeed very unreliable to keep mashing a diagonal and never once hitting the buttons one frame apart

I dont mash, so
6 Button masterrace
 
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Fwiw, i use diagonals to call assists as well as macros.

I use diagonals to get out special plus assist and i use diagonals to get out normal plus assist.
I use macros to get out empty plus assist. assist. If sg banned macros on sticks for whatever inane reason, i would probably quit sg... (Which i guess people would love) or i would become a pad player so i can use the assist hack... Because fuck playing against macros without macros. That is completely unfair, aling with the silent button hacks that pad players already enjoy... There would be little reason to use sticks anymore other than nostalgia... And 360's on capcom games.

Also, i used nothing but diagonals for assist for the first year i played sg, but after wing and shin came over my hotel and played a few sets against me i could tell how powerful it was and could tell i was going to get fucked up at evo if i didnt make the adjustment. So i did... With only 3 days practice i moved to macros.


So, it isnt like i dont know the difference in sg without macros and with macros.
But if macros mean nothing then why are we considering banning them, when the original vision for sg was to have dedicated assist buttons but there was no way to be able to do it on 6 button controllers while having 6 normals as well...


The community has adjusted. I dont see the problem. Pad players have macros and stick players have them as well. Making it so that stick only cant use macros, makes sg a pad game for people that want the higher execution that a pad macro would give.

As an example, i played manual assist only style for a year and couldnt get out empty assist calls at more than half the time i wanted to do them... So my gameplay reflected that and i basically never used empty jump plus assist or any empty assist as a main strategy. Whereas age, a pad player who always used macros for assists (and dashes) was always able to use it extremely well against me.


So yeah, thats just my thoughts.
 
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Verdant Brave said:
A six-button player on an eight-button stick still has access to all his options and can even ignore the extra buttons.

An eight-button player on a six-button stick has to adjust for two missing buttons.

Just go with the eight button stick.
The discussion isn't which you should buy. I play in arcades. An 8 button stick is not an option for me at all.
 
IsaVulpes said:
That is 99% you and only 1% the game, though


Not really. And macros as of now ARE in the game. So not using them is a decision you make, not a "git gud" issue.

If macros get taken out, then it is a git gud issue. And a stupid one at that. And at that time is when i and every other macro user will reevaluate the game on its new merits.
 
I'm on Domo's team. My stick has seven buttons on it, with the extra one being a macro for unfly/pushblock.
 
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Dime_x said:
Not really. And macros as of now ARE in the game. So not using them is a decision you make, not a "git gud" issue.
If macros get taken out, then it is a git gud issue. And a stupid one at that. And at that time is when i and every other macro user will reevaluate the game on its new merits.
As long as you insist hitting two buttons on the same frame is difficult I do not care what you think on this issue, Dime. <3 It's a quality-of-life issue, and that's it.
XSF had two button Lightning Attack with no leniency. MSH and MvC1 had assist as MP+MK with no leniency. MvC2 has diagonal button LA, which Storm players OBVIOUSLY had no problem with, and Cajun Strike and other things. ALL the Versus games had tag as two buttons with no leniency, etc etc.

I really don't think I'll remove macros for legacy sticks on PS4, though, since that just means if you want to keep using 'em you go buy a PS4 stick. That's stupid! And it avoids the point of the driver entirely. (I was just evilly contemplating the position I'm in, hah.)

Macro use doesn't really bother me because it doesn't have many of the problems it has in other games, like in GG where they literally count as pressing the buttons every frame and allow you to do things you are not normally allowed to do. Macros just count as pressing the mapped buttons, they don't allow you to do anything you can't do manually. If the single-button aspect of something really does bother me I'll just fix whatever OS's or other stupid uses pop up like I already have been, but those OS's/uses will also be present for manual players.

I am not going to go out of my way to remove macros from a set of hardware, but I also am not going to go out of my way to accommodate people who want to use macros on sticks, as I said. The arcade version comes with no macros. If you choose to learn to play in a way that will mean you are unable to play in certain circumstances, like at an arcade or at a gathering where nobody has an 8-button stick for you to borrow, I have no pity and consider that a poor choice.

(As further evil contemplation, if I got really sick of it I could just add 5f lag on macro presses which would be enough to eliminate their usefulness in most advanced situations while maintaining their usefulness in less timing-intensive areas like assisting or pushblock.)
 
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Wow, after voting, i didn't thought i would be alone who is ok with 6 button! I played Skullgirls alot with all the characters, but never played it 'the master way' (so my combo are usually small and i mostly play solo without assist), so maybe i'm missing something here : aren't macro only combination of button, like the grab command? I don't think you can set stuff in macro like those hard to remember taunt command so...why are macro so crucial for everyone? Is it that hard to press 2 buttons at once?
 
Dime_x said:
The community has adjusted. I dont see the problem. Pad players have macros and stick players have them as well. Making it so that stick only cant use macros, makes sg a pad game for people that want the higher execution that a pad macro would give.
Don't people use arcade sticks for fighting games because it offers better execution options? It lets you perform things that would otherwise be difficult/awkward to do on a pad.

I play on pad 99% of the time and the rare chances I get to use a stick, I have absolutely no issue doing diagonal inputs and not needing macros without getting accidental inputs. Hell, I use 2 button assist calls on pad. The only reason I use a macro is because SoiD(hold) xx Argus would require a weird button configuration, which isn't even a concern on a stick.

I'd learn to play without macros for the sake of not having to rely on them, at least on a stick.
 
K.Radical said:
aren't macro only combination of button, like the grab command? I don't think you can set stuff in macro like those hard to remember taunt command so...why are macro so crucial for everyone? Is it that hard to press 2 buttons at once?
Throws, dashes, assists, tag ins and pushblocking are all done with two buttons. Some people prefer to use the one button because they find it makes those techniques easier in certain circumstances.
 
I would use 13 buttons if I could.
Something as basic as wanting to reliably get a dash or assist while blocking shouldn't be behind a 1f execution wall
It seems to me like that in fact clashes with a lot of the design of this game in terms of input leniency and general ease of execution; Dashing and assist calls are very basic gameplay elements (As opposed to pbgc or deliberately going for difficult combos) and the only reason they aren't as trivial as other basic gameplay elements to physically execute is because of this outdated arcade controller design

"Other games have been worse about this" is hardly a reason when Skullgirls seems to specifically seek out to improve on a lot of these age-old problems most developers can't get right (Or indeed have no interest in getting "right")

When's keyboardgirls
 
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Xbox 360 pad
8 buttons
Macro 1: LP+MP+HP
Macro 2: LK+HK

I could adjust to using non-macros for KK supers and cilia slide if I had to, though losing the PP super/dash/pushblock button would be an issue + I'd have to forget about dashing/argus while holding any SoiD altogether.

I understand the arcade background behind the 6 button argument, I also understand this is mostly a discussion about sticks specifically (I reckon everyone knows that with pads' situation of four out of six buttons controller by one finger, not having macros would be a handicap). Still, it's odd to see 8-button players being somewhat ostracised with more or less loose ideas of tournament bans (offline stick specific) or build-in macro delays (not offline stick specific), in a game where macros were in the game from the very beginning, on by default and mentioned/suggested by the tutorial itself. Surely people don't have to feel inferior just for using the options they were given.
 
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