Spotlight Skullgirls with 6 Buttons or 8 Buttons?

[zeknife]

Can we not have the hitbox player get more buttons to use

I use 9 buttons right now via the power of right stick assists, the only reason I don't have a dash macro is that you still can't bind shift to anything (Among a bunch of other nice keys)

 

[KidPanda]

If I could set a 3rd macro for dash, I would.

This is super easy to do with a bit of rewiring.

 

[Mike_Z]

The year is 2014 Mike, people play on pad, stick, and hitbox. Arcades are dead or on life support in every single non-Japan country. The longer time goes by, the more that sticks & pads will be just a choice and not a standard. You made a fighting game that went straight to console, you should know this.

That's irrelevant, and you're assuming I said something I didn't say.

Pad IS NOT the input device that six-button fighting games were designed for, that's a fact - six buttons was created, by SF2, along with an arcade machine with six buttons all arranged nicely next to each other. (As a replacement for the giant pressure sensitive buttons that were cutting people's hands.)
You can adapt the layout and provide help for pad players, but just like the qwerty layout was designed to help typewriters not get stuck by reducing typing speed and later got co-opted to computers, so has six buttons been co-opted to pads.

This does not mean that fighting games made now do not consider how the game will be played on pads, because it will be, but it does mean that a pad is not the primary design consideration for a six-button fighting game, whatever year it is. A pad is certainly a higher consideration for a 3- or 4-button fighting game.

@Vulpes
If Evo has revised their stance in recent years, then great! I admit not paying too much attention to it since they stopped including any games I cared about. :^)


I don't really care one way or the other. My bigger problem with LP+LK+MP OS was that one input did so much, rather than that you could macro said input. I can fix anything else that might be problematic in code, so I have no problem with macros specifically.

I'm really damn annoyed at people getting so up in arms because I was thinking out loud, though. Same beta experiment shit, different thread.

 

[Cynical]

I'm really damn annoyed at people getting so up in arms because I was thinking out loud, though. Same beta experiment shit, different thread.

How exactly are we supposed to know when you're thinking out loud vs. being on the verge of declaring "every tournament I'm at will ban macros on sticks, and I'm going to make PS3 sticks not have macros on the PS4 version"?

 

[Mike_Z]

How exactly are we supposed to know when you're thinking out loud vs. being on the verge of declaring "every tournament I'm at will ban macros on sticks, and I'm going to make PS3 sticks not have macros on the PS4 version"?

When I say things like "I am just evilly contemplating what it's possible for me to do" that is not "this is happening!"

I'm generally pretty good about saying THIS IS HAPPENING when it is. ...aren't I?

 

[Mr. X]

No one can tell when you're kidding I guess.

 

[Kongk4]

I'd hate to relearn what my muscle memory has learned in more than a year of SG. Then again, you could ask if they manage to get a B-type layout where you can use as a call assist, not just "modify it because it feels awkward to me".

Edit: also choosing what kind of Tag in you'd like in the controls settings should be fine

That's pretty much why I said "completely," as in "I would be 100% cool with this rule, if..." I would mind if SG tournaments were to suddenly change to a 6-buttons-on-sticks-only rule. However, not so much so to not enter any and thus not support the scene. (No lie: not saying this as a "call out" to any of you BTW)

I understand that it would really suck if you had to adjust your muscles memory for something as big as that if it were to happen. I kind of know the feeling from playing... other fighting games... *Glares at BBCP Tsubaki*

I agree with the Type-B idea, if Mike is up to make that as a control-menu-option in the arcade version, it could work for the best of both worlds. Since the entire context of this thread is to see if arcade stick players are willing to play in tournaments as if they were well... arcades.

My first concern would be that A2 becomes awkward to call
MP+HK is decently natural to press with a normal hand position,
repeatedly calling A2 in neutral with HP+HK means you have to re-position your hand all the time

Not sure how it would feel, of course

The second concern is of simpler nature - that'd be a kind of exceptionally large change to the input mechanics, and the game is kinda old at this point.
Look at how some PW players are crying over Install becoming 421KK, simply because they're not used to the Input (and Install only "recently" changed to QCT-KK)

I... don't know if I can agree to that. Your hand has to adjust a little bit fast during combos/resets anyway. So something that is as naturally normal as pressing two buttons that are vertically next to each other, to call an assist during well... in some to most cases, the neutral game. I would think it would be as easy as dashing up and grabbing the opponent. While perfectly being able to do something else immediately.

But this all comes down to personal preference anyway. So eh...

It would be a pretty big change, which why I agree with that Type-B thing. I'd like if Mike could give it shot in the beta. If he's willing to of course.

Painwheel players' tears are tasty. I wish they didn't have so much sodium though.

 

[Evilweevle]

people read into stuff like this waaaaaay too fucking much. holy hell.

anyway i prefer playing with only 6 buttons since its the closest to the "true arcade experience", and when i first started learning stick i figured if i ever wanted to play in an arcade then i shoulddnt be getting used to using extra buttons.

now that im used to ignoring the 2 end buttons i dont really see any point to learning them now. the only circumstance that might change this is if some super fucking amazing tech was found that was literally impossible to do with 6 buttons, which is obviously not going to happen at this stage.

 

[Mike_Z]

It would be a pretty big change, which why I agree with that Type-B thing. I'd like if Mike could give it shot in the beta. If he's willing to of course.

I am not. It is a lot of work for a thing that affects very few people, doesn't satisfy everyone anyway, and which I disagree with.
I did a lot of research into who hit what for what actions before we even made the Filia-only demo. Not to mention that MP+MK reduces your assist options to one set of buttons and one strength of special.

 

[d3v]

Since when??

I know for sure that neither SF4 nor Marvel3 ban this?
Full Schedule had WIRED two buttons to be multiple DIRECTIONS (upback, upforward) at the same time, and it was allowed at some tournaments (UFGTX!).
People in SF4 either use eg PPP macros -- or worse, use the 8 buttons to have a 2nd LP and a rewired Select on their Stick, to get access to easier Back-plinking.

To quote the rulings from the (by your opinion) "best-run tournament ever"
http://ufgtus.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/hardware-button-bind-ruling-for-ufgt10/
"Hardware Button Binds, so long as they trigger all of their inputs on the same frame, will be allowed at UFGT10 and any of my future events. These Button Binds must be either directions only, or action buttons only."
Clearly allowing a Button that presses LMH at once -
And this is talking about REWIRING the stick to do things OTHERWISE NOT POSSIBLE IN THE GAME; an entirely different case from "Going to the Button Configuration and binding your buttons"

And obviously neither a hardware macro like that, nor doing something that is explicitly allowed by the game itself (Button Config!!) is in any way, shape, or form comparable whatsoever to Turbo - which is
1) Not part of the game itself
2) Multiple automated button presses, one or multiple frames apart
3) Allowing things which are humanly impossible (I can't press depress press depress the same button 30 times per second)
Turbo is more akin to programming a "macro combo", where I hit a button and then my Stick runs through an entire combo; that has literally nothing to do with the question at hand.

I have no idea how someone who wants to avoid Half Circles, laughs at games requiring 3 Buttons for Supers, hates execution this, hates execution that, gives leniency on every input, etc whatever.. suddenly thinks it's reasonable to expect everyone to be able to press diagonal buttons on the same frame (and it is crucial to get this right every time; If you do it wrong, your "Downback+Updocall vs a Low" turns from 'landing a combo on your opponent' into 'getting happy birthday'd'; about the hardest possible swing between "Got input right" and "Got input wrong" you can even have in the game) -
And it's not like this is for some "special technique" which beginners have no access to (PBGC, Wavedash, Similar - those aren't easy, but they're also clearly advanced mechanics, which you don't even attempt until you are experienced), but for literally the most basic thing one can do in this game sans moving the stick / using one of the 6 attack buttons.

5 Frame input delay on Macrobuttons on Stick sounds like the most convoluted arbitrary execution barrier anyone could even dream up. Are you trying to get hired by Capcom?

Wiz has banned this at EVO. UFGT is the outlier as most folks stick to EVO rules (and it doesn't matter anymore since there's no more UFGT).

Also, by verbal agreement, most of the top stick modders and builders will now outright refuse to do this to your arcade stick.

 

[Kongk4]

I am not. It is a lot of work for a thing that affects very few people, doesn't satisfy everyone anyway, and which I disagree with.
I did a lot of research into who hit what for what actions before we even made the Filia-only demo. Not to mention that MP+MK reduces your assist options to one set of buttons and one strength of special.

Alright, fine. Thanks for responding.

 

[Mike_Z]

Alright, fine. Thanks for responding.

Sorry. :^S
I am, however, looking into an actual MvC2 control scheme for those who can do without mediums. {:^)

 

[Kuro Val Enix]

I understand that it would really suck if you had to adjust your muscles memory for something as big as that if it were to happen. I kind of know the feeling from playing... other fighting games... *Glares at BBCP Tsubaki*

A fellow Tsubaki player I still miss the old hold back, forward ball -.- that screwed up some oki game in the corner, as well as some combos... gosh :|

Sorry. :^S
I am, however, looking into an actual MvC2 control scheme for those who can do without mediums. {:^)

It would be something like this if I remember correctly the arcade layout
Assist 1
Assist 2

 

[Mike_Z]

It would be something like this if I remember correctly the arcade layout
Assist 1
Assist 2

Why did you list that?

 

[Chicken Boo]

Use a 8 button stick, and I use my macros to simply call my assists. I could ignore the extra buttons and call my assists like a non-scrub but I dunno.

 

[Kuro Val Enix]

Why did you list that?

Since you're "looking for an actual MVC2 control scheme", I remembered that commands were something like this and listed them for those who didn't knew that, or where you talking about something else? My bad then, I misunderstood you words.

 

[Mike_Z]

Since you're "looking for an actual MVC2 control scheme", I remembered that commands were something like this and listed them for those who didn't knew that, or where you talking about something else? My bad then, I misunderstood you words.

Oh. "Looking into" as in "seeing how difficult it is to make it in SG". Although I guess there are people out there who don't know what it is...

 

[bigbandpro69]

I like 6 button layout because I don't have to use my pinkie for anything and my pinkie execution sucks

 

[Kuro Val Enix]

Oh. "Looking into" as in "seeing how difficult it is to make it in SG". Although I guess there are people out there who don't know what it is...

Yup, I guess I'm one of them, thx for the detailed explenation.

 

[NightWolfkcl10]

I have to say this that eight button or six button, both layouts would be fine with me because im used to having eight buttons. I have no trouble with ignoring the last two button.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Wiz has banned this at EVO. UFGT is the outlier as most folks stick to EVO rules (and it doesn't matter anymore since there's no more UFGT).

Also, by verbal agreement, most of the top stick modders and builders will now outright refuse to do this to your arcade stick.

1. Good job quoting a wall of text
2. Wiz has banned *hardware mods*, not "Binding PPP to L1 in the Button Config", which is what this was about in the first place..
3. http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/8747699/#Comment_8747699 etc, besides following EVO is not really a good idea etc

I like 6 button layout because I don't have to use my pinkie for anything and my pinkie execution sucks

I use 6 buttons, and my Pinky for both HP and HK. #bestpinkyeu

I'm really damn annoyed at people getting so up in arms because I was thinking out loud, though. Same beta experiment shit, different thread.

I don't think the two are comparable at all.
Putting the Macro Delay/Ban idea in the same spot as your well thought-out Beta experiments?
The Beta sure doesn't deserve that kinda downtalk.

The Beta has experimental changes to things that probably could use getting addressed, to see how various possible ideas play out and end up, until one finds a happy middle ground.
The Macro "issue" addresses something that never needed to get touched in the first place, and does so in a terrible manner; as if you did a Beta patch where Peacock gets 8 bomb cancels .. just because. Which doesn't happen, because, why would you experiment with something that has no basis?

IF there is an issue, then the issue is that hitting diagonal buttons on the same frame is (at least "seen by many as") too unreliable (if it wasn't, nobody would use macros), so we'd need to find a way for LP~MK to call assist without giving a button, and without allowing pseudo cancels.*
Banning Stick-Macros would touch the 'problem' from the entirely wrong angle, fix nothing, and force stick users with subpar execution to switch to Pad.

---

If someone says something I'd deem extremely silly at best, I will disagree with them (and generally outline why);
Be that someone claiming Filia is the worst character in the game, or that Peacock has a 10-0 Matchup against Valentine, or that combos become "unviable" @240 Undizzy, or that fully invulnerable MK/HK Bomber aren't kind of too good, or that banning Macros for stick players sounds like a neat idea.

If you "think out loud" on a forum, you'll have to live with getting responses to that thinking process (everyone has to!), especially of course if you are someone that actually has the power to act upon those thoughts.

You get incredibly pissy if people in the Beta thread write "Squigly needs a raging demon", which is more akin to what you posted here.
A: "Fukua is worthless garbage now after those Beta patches, completely unplayable, wtf is Mike doing??"
Mike Z: "Care to clarify what exactly your problem is, and why?"
A: "Why do you get so up in arms over this? I was just thinking out loud."
Would you think that 'A' is in the right here?
And 'A' in this scenario is just some random guy you could comfortably ignore, not someone with access to the code; where you got some degree of fear that he might actually act upon what he just wrote, giving Fukua a truckload of buffs.

---

*To outline the issue:

Spoiler

- It would probably be possible to have "an assist call within 1f of a normal" cancel the normal, so something like MP~HK would be read as "MP..owait, A2" and then the game just cancels the MP into nothing. That would mean this MP~HK thing has 1f vuln startup, but that's not gonna matter too often, similar already happens for MP~MK tags etc, and it sure is a lot less granting than whiffing an entire Medium (which pretty much always just gets you hit)

However:
- What happens if I chain "into an assistcall"? eg [MP, HP~MK] would chain the MP into HP, then cancel the HP into block after 1 frame, and suddenly my sMP turned from -7 into +14 due to cancelling its recovery with an assistcall.
That's clearly not something that should happen.

To solve, basic idea:
- Naughtcancel (MP~HK giving me 1f of MP, then A2 and the MP is cancelled) works, but not if in recovery of another normal (or similar), so [MP, HP~MK] would, as before, be chaining MP into HP and give me the A2 as well.
This would be bonus nice for people wanting to do assist+normal in Combos

This however got other issues, such as:
- People actually wanting to call assist+do a normal 1f apart in neutral (Eg possible that a Filia does cHK~MP to slide forward while calling an assist) now can't anymore
- People still have to learn the frame perfect timing to "be safe", even though it got a lot better
- People still have to learn the frame perfect timing for something like QCF-MPHK, else their special comes out and they can't call assist 1f later (this would perhaps be fixable too, but maybe create other unwanted things?)
- People can possibly still "abuse" this, eg Fukua pressing HK~MP to take a big step backwards safely while calling assist (HK startup moving her), or characters where the soundfile of a normal plays on frame1 using this to confuse their opponens (who expect a cMK that never comes), or whatever
- etc

And then one has to weigh whether the benefits (people who can't l2p can avoid using macros) outweigh the negatives (of which there are a bunch of possible ones), and I figure Mike decided that they don't.

 

[Mike_Z]

@IsaVulpes
You shoulda just linked this, Evo 2014's rules:
http://shoryuken.com/evo-player-guide/evo-additional-rules/
"All macros available via the in-game controller configuration menu are allowed."
So I guess they have indeed updated their stance! In which case, no problemo.

And no, you only try to differentiate this situation because you have a side to choose. I'm done here.

 

[Zidiane]

When I say things like "I am just evilly contemplating what it's possible for me to do" that is not "this is happening!"

I'm generally pretty good about saying THIS IS HAPPENING when it is. ...aren't I?

If it's any consolation, I knew you weren't serious. The same thing happens to me all the time. What you need is an evil thoughts piggy bank, where you write down your evil thoughts and put them in. Then, when you're feeling particularly evil, smash it open and then read them, but then do nothing because you aren't a bad guy after all. And then get a new piggy bank. *shopping montage*

 

[Number 13]

I'm pretty sure Mike used the right key words in his posts to allude he was speaking purely hypothetical. Anyway the current poll result shows that besides six button pad, every other format has a fair amount of representation which is one of those "the more you know" things.

 

[IsaVulpes]

besides six button pad, every other format has a fair amount of representation

The poll is kinda missing 6/8 button Hitbox(Keyboard), at the very least.

 

[Number 13]

The poll is kinda missing 6/8 button Hitbox(Keyboard), at the very least.

Added. People can change their vote to that preference if it was missing before.

 

[D.R.E.]

i use a macro for tags both in SGs and Marvel3 (which are the only "team games" I've played) but I could adjust to using 6 buttons if I was ever in front of a 6 button SG's arcade machine (which i doubt will happen)...I've used PPP KKK macros in Sf4 for Ultras, but have no problem doing it "manually" as I have played SF4 (and past fighting games) in actual arcades with only 6 buttons, but I realize the breed of video game players with actual arcade experience is a rare one..but yeah, macros are easy, but arent necessary per se IMO..but if I have a mad catz stick in my lap, i WILL use my macros 9 times out of 10..cause why not.the buttons are there, so I'm a use em...less margin for error.

 

[Nap1400]

When I started playing fighting games I started on pad, and immediately saw the benefits to using stick after I played more matches. Once I actually got a cheap stick I've never used macros for anything. I started playing Skullgirls and I still don't. But that's just personal preference.

Spoiler

I also have a bad habit of attacking while calling an assist in neutral, so it's probably not doing me any favors

 

[zarkingphoton]

(As a replacement for the giant pressure sensitive buttons that were cutting people's hands.)

What? People were cutting their hands on buttons? Can I get some more info on this? I've only heard a little bit about SF2's earlier, pressure-sensitive controls, but not much.

 

[ChonchoMann]

Wait, people really play SG with macro buttons ON STICKS?!? o_O' I'd never thought there would be any advantage to be had from doing this.

Easier assists m8

 

[zarkingphoton]

We shouldn't worry about what features other players' sticks have. We should focus on why I can't use my fightstick to turn on my PS3.

 

[Kain]

uuuuuuhhhh I use the controls they give from the start

 

[Zidiane]

I just can't imagine how people are having a hard time hitting two buttons at once. Guess maybe I'll find out one day when I get a stick of my own. Probably when I run out of pads to Frankenstein back from the dead.

 

[Mike_Z]

What? People were cutting their hands on buttons? Can I get some more info on this? I've only heard a little bit about SF2's earlier, pressure-sensitive controls, but not much.

OH oops I misspoke it was SF1, gah. SF2 started with 6 buttons, which was my point. (I'm not gonna edit the post though.)

Early SF1 had giant soft-ish P and K buttons that gave an L M or H attack depending on how hard you hit it.
Problem was, the button had a metal holder/edge underneath, and as the button itself got punched repeatedly and wore down or broke, people would injure themselves by punching it as hard as they could and smacking the metal underneath. It was pretty quickly replaced by 6 separate buttons.

 

[akindhobo]

As arcades are pretty much dead everywhere isn't it the person's responsibility to bring their own controller to whatever tournament they go to? So not having your preferred controller should never be an issue. Unless like you just drunkenly stumble into a Skullgirls tournament at like an event you had no idea you were going to and wanted to play.

 

[Crypt Kiddie]

8 button stick here, I only use one macro for LP+LK+MP for using pummel horse in bella combos. Having to slam down on those 3 buttons feels awkward as heck and is easy to screw up.

 

[Tank]

I have 8 buttons set up on pad but i only ever really use 7 buttons. macro 1 is dash macro 2 is grab but i rarely use grab macro and sometimes I even switch macro 2 for assist 1, But I usually manually call assists. so i guess i'm really a 7 button user. (plus I usually go solo so pfft what do I know :P)

Also I read earlier in the posts macro dash doesn't have buffering like manual dash. That's good to know.

 

[zeknife]

Also I read earlier in the posts macro dash doesn't have buffering like manual dash. That's good to know.

This refers not just to macro dashing, but all buttondashing
The buffer applies only to dashing by doubletapping (/)

Edit: Also please add an option to vote for keyboard

 

[Muro]

Why is the poll anonymous btw? I'd like to know which people out of the 150+ who already voted use which setup. Don't think that's overly confidential data.

 

[Stuff]

Me and my number of buttons are a very private matter!