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Solo regen health

SanoBaron

SanoBaron

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so, anytime I ask about it, I never get an answer.

is the red health regeneration for solo being positively received? is it even being tested in the beta still? I would really like to know.

this is going to be a short lived thread, mainly because I really just want an answer and I am desperate.
 
I'm answering with my impressions since nobody else has. I'm not the voice of skullheart's beta community, lol.

1. Seems like it's being positively received (overall) to me. People wanted solo to have something to keep up with teams, and the extra health is not exactly ignorable. Requiring not getting hit for a few moments (good defense or offense) to get that health seems like a good design decision.

The biggest complaint I see, is solo vs solo matches taking a bit longer. The regen value seems lower than the last time I played beta, so it seems about right to me.

2. It's still being tested in beta. It's still there right now. It feels like they still are changing the amount occasionally, I don't play beta enough to know. It does seem like it's made a difference for solos in matches.

If you're asking about when it'll come to retail, I have no idea? My sloppy guess would be the Beowulf patch (big changes with big patch), but the accurate answer is probably "whenever they feel like it's balanced".
 
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I think it's groovy.
But like what raven said I'm not really the voice of the community as a whole.
 
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tbh, I think it's more than fair. and it gives both solos and teams reasons to be on the offensive, thus making the pace of the game faster.

also, thank you @Ravendeth and @Super Milk Chan for responding. and @Muro

EDIT: if you ask me though, they could just turn of red health for 1v1
 
It's ok, but not on 1v1.
It's like "oh hey, I'm going to chip him now" and his health regenerates enough to keep him alive and kill me.
 
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it'd be cool if they could turn health regen into a thing in the options like how many rounds teams and solos get. that way 1v1 can have it off by default, and mixed can have it on by default.
 
People will hate me for this, but I actually like that solos can live through chip damage.

It feels more like a feature to me than a side effect, giving that gutsy "against all odds" unique effect that I think suits a solo well, given that they're supposed to have higher defense. I would rather have matches end with a big comeback finish, than a blocked and unsafe sniper shot. I would rather annoy people into making cleaner setups, than just plain playing runaway at the end of each game.
 
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I think regenerating health is a really good solution that avoids simply adding more health or damage. I'd like to see it hit retail. Solos never place at tourneys, anymore, so I think they need some sort of buff, or else it'll just stay as the, "I only know one character," option and never be a legit competitive choice.
 
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I think it's mostly just really boring.

Team Red Health regeneration is a thing that makes you not want to call assist sometimes, or try to get a character out via DHC/Tag, and makes the opponent want to snap, and and and etc; it has a lot of influence on the gameplan of both players and is in general just interesting to play around with

Solo Red Health regeneration has little to no interaction other than "Guy with lots of red health will try to run away maybe" and really doesn't do anything other than giving Solos a bit more health. Might as well just have Solos go from 29k health to 35k?

Solos are already the strongest teamsize at low levels, and this change does nothing to address the legitimate issues Solo has (lack of tools) while buffing the thing that makes them win against scrubs (and occasionally allows a solo player to random out someone 10x his better).

---

I'm not really sure how to approach the (perceived) problem differently, but I don't feel this change does any good; just makes fighting against Solos even more of a chore.
I'd rather Solos got some usable-but-not-broken bonus mechanic that doesn't play a role at low levels (since ppl won't use it there) and allows the "designated Solo players" who legitimately only play 1 char because they hate all others to work with something;

Base Quick Example: QCF+Assist does a "Snap" which depletes the respective Assists (so QCF+MP+HK would "hit" the opponent's 3rd) red life, but keeps the opponent's point character in (but they are invinc and can just tech, like after a sweep? or w/e).
- That would be useful if the opponent's point and second both have a ton of red health; where just Snapping would bring in his Assist-Char - but then the former point regens.
- Of course you could "just" kill the point, but that option isn't always there (if instead the opponent's point lands a hit on you, his 3rd would regen all the life AND he'd have the option to DHC to his 2nd, so actually both of his red life chars happily regen) and still allows the opponent's 3rd to regen up.

This way a Solo player would have to determine whether he'd rather take the risk of reset > kill (with the possibility of the opponent dodging the reset and then their 3rd heals up) or spend the bar on Snap (removing red life of the 3rd + getting an incoming mixup, but allowing the former 1st to regen) or spend the bar on fakesnap (surefire removing a bunch of red health while still keeping in the current opponent's point, but giving up pressure)

---

I have no idea whether this would be a good idea, but you get the picture.
Something that is useful but not way too strong, that doesn't play a role at low levels (where solos are definitely more than strong enough already) but that gives dedicated solo players something to play with (and which they have to consciously use)
 
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here's my big solution to a solo backing off to try and regen health:

go after him. be on the offensive. don't just let them get their health back without a fight. use your snapbacks, if those work against solo red health. be offensive. that makes the game go faster.

in other words: Git Gud.
 
Night Phyre said:
Solos never place at tourneys, anymore, so I think they need some sort of buff, or else it'll just stay as the, "I only know one character," option and never be a legit competitive choice.
Do they not place because it's impossible, or because no good player runs Solo?

NEC had 2 Solos in Top8, 2 more players who ran Solo in their respective matches against those Solo players (preferring 1v1!), and 2 more dedicated Solos in Top12.
To compare, there were 3 Duos and 3 Trios each in Top8. Solos never place?

I remember when everyone and their mother sold Painwheel as a competitively unusable character, and then Taluda picked her up and amongst other accomplishments won UFGT.
Since then, Painwheel rose in the public perception to the stellar spot of "competitively unviable, except if used point and backed by Fortune/Bella"

Trios were for the longest time seen as the clear strongest team size; now Keninblack thinks the Top3 teams are Pea/Bella, Fuk/Bella and Filia/Bella and three of the clearly strongest SG players run one of precisely these Duos.
I don't think SG players are good enough yet / the game is developed sufficiently to state something as large as "never a legit competitive choice".
.. People won VSav tournaments with Anakaris.

I think Solos ARE weaker than Duos/Trios; I however also think they have a much easier time winning, due to not being able to fuck up as badly (no HappyBirthdays/DoubleSnaps/.. against a Solo), having a much bigger random factor (MAN, those Reversals do damage..) and a dedicated Solo obviously being better with his character than someone who has to split practice time onto three chars.

And lastly, as very personal opinion:
If you make Solos 1:1 as strong as Teams even at the highest level, there's really no fucking reason to play a team, where you are far more susceptible to losing randomly and have to put in 3x the work.
Do you really want to limit SG with its countless assist possibilities, fun team synergies, etc to a 1v1 game?
 
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SanoBaron said:
here's my big solution to a solo backing off to try and regen health:

go after him. be on the offensive. don't just let them get their health back without a fight. use your snapbacks, if those work against solo red health. be offensive. that makes the game go faster.

in other words: Git Gud.
I have no idea what you're even saying, but uuuh

here's my big solution to solos being too weak:

don't play solo, learn a team. don't rely on mashing reversal, learn neutral game. practice more than one character, "pick a top tier". that makes the game more fun.

in other words: Git Gud.

Heyyy
 
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it doesn't fucking limit the game at all. it gives people another option to play a different way.
IsaVulpes said:
And lastly, as very personal opinion:
If you make Solos 1:1 as strong as Teams even at the highest level, there's really no fucking reason to play a team, where you are far more susceptible to losing randomly and have to put in 3x the work.
Do you really want to limit SG with its countless assist possibilities, fun team synergies, etc to a 1v1 game?
so in other words vulpes, just get rid of solos altogether?

if you're saying viability is a problem then you might as well remove the ability to pick any move for your assist and have it be just the specific assists with no input whatsoever.

why limit yourself with one assist when you can have 2? get rid of duos.

and yes, solos can't get happy birthday'd, but they can't approach as easy or have as much options without an assist.
they also have more damage, but can't combo one blockbuster into another.
and if teams can be as strong as 1v1 then that means that all 3 are viable and that means more options on how to play.

if people end up using 1v1 more, then why does it matter? you said it earlier that it used to be about trios but now duos are popular, how would that be any different?
 
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All I'm really getting from this argument, is that the problem is peoples' perceptions.
People want solo to have more tools and decision making to match teams, but they don't want solo to have as many tools/decisions as teams, otherwise people will stop playing teams?

People want solos to not be as annoying to fight against (because?), then they suggest new mechanics for them to specifically annoy teams with. Do people want more interactions, or less? I don't understand. They want solos to be as hard as playing a team?

Git Gud?
I guess? It goes both ways. Don't rely on mashing reversal, don't rely on the other guy to not be mashing reversal. Is that not the essence of git gud?

Health regen: More boring than adding a new move?
Probably. A lot of things are more boring than adding a new move.

Solos are already the strongest teamsize at low levels.
Because new people know one character at low levels. Should low levels not have a strongest team size? to learn with? Doesn't having more options mean more learning? Why does having less options make it easier to win?

Lack of Tools
Isn't the point of solo to exchange tools for power? What new tools are duos getting over trios? Why is the ability to kill in a combo that normally wouldn't, always disregarded as an extra option in itself?

Red health interaction
"Guy with lots of red health will try to run away maybe", this is pretty much the same thing that happens when a team has a ton of red health, no? How is this any different from the decision a full team makes? Alternatively, it could motivate someone to go in, avoid the assist better, and mount an offense, which is also not any different from the decision a team makes. Why is the added ability to even be able to make this decision a problem?

Depleting snap suggestion.
This is more interactive than snapping the assist in and having to kill them? I never really understood this suggestion either. New moves are cool, but doesn't this *reduce* the interactions by one step? It's not like them switching back to the point character is gonna be any safer in front of a solo.

A mechanic that doesn't play a role at low levels.
Why is this so important to people? I see it mentioned a lot, and it honestly stumps me. Is it really such a bad thing to have new players realize the advantage of a good defense or a good offense? Is red health inherently a bad mechanic?

Lack of Solo Risk
So calling assists badly shouldn't be punished? I mean that's the inherent risk of having the option, isn't it? Do you not take a risk in terms of matchups and total health/options playing solo? Should solos lose the ability to get double snaps?

The problem is that people think solos *shouldn't* be as strong as teams?
Because learning one character with less options is better than learning three with more? Because of randomness? Because reversals can win a game? Do veteran players really need a crutch over someone who plays randomly? I beat people better than me randomly all the time, whether I'm playing solo or not. Is it *really* my fault though, if I finish someone with diamond dynamo and it ends up working? We should encourage carelessness and disrespect against solos specifically?

So people hate Solos.
Okay? We see solos in a tournament placing alongside duos and trios, and that's a huge problem. SOLOS ARE BEATING PEOPLE GUYS. I don't get it. It's in the game? Having more options means doing more work, is that the problem? Should we just get rid of options? while adding more, but only for pros?

Anyway sorry for the long rant, I think that people raise a lot of valid points actually, but I don't see any working solutions better than what we've got. I promised myself I wouldn't talk to people this week, yet here I am, genuinely trying to understand why this headache exists, why I'm making these roundabout psychotically tangetial posts of mine.

I realize that a lot of this seems like strawman-type arguments, but I am genuinely trying to understand what people think the better alternatives are. I am trying my absolute best to address and discuss peoples' points honestly and respectfully, unfortunately I am well-known as an abrasive ill-informed fuckhead. If I am being ignorant, then enlighten me.

Is doing more work with teams *really* what holds us back from getting better at the game and understanding complex options present? Is having to get better and learn options, what holds us back from getting better? Shouldn't more options be winning in theory? Personally I'm just thankful that I don't have to neutral jump hadoukens all day, and for an intelligent community.
 
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Surely the most appropriate change to solos would be one that addressed their weaknesses rather than improving further upon their strengths

3v1 and 1v3 are always going to be really dumb as long as the solo can kill in one combo, though.
 
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Ravendeth said:
Red health interaction
"Guy with lots of red health will try to run away maybe", this is pretty much the same thing that happens when a team has a ton of red health, no? How is this any different from the decision a full team makes? Alternatively, it could motivate someone to go in, avoid the assist better, and mount an offense, which is also not any different from the decision a team makes. Why is the added ability to even be able to make this decision a problem?
A team has to change the point character to start regenerating red health. There's a limited number of ways to do this safely. TBQH I think it's pretty specious to suggest it's the same as what solo needs to do to start regenerating red health. I also don't agree that the best way to take advantage of red health as solo is to play more aggressive.

Ravendeth said:
Depleting snap suggestion.
This is more interactive than snapping the assist in and having to kill them? I never really understood this suggestion either. New moves are cool, but doesn't this *reduce* the interactions by one step? It's not like them switching back to the point character is gonna be any safer in front of a solo.
It depends on how it's implemented, like what resources you need to use it etc. I don't think it's worth getting too hung up on that specific idea, though. The important part of the example is it's something you consciously make the decision to do, rather than something that happens for you automatically.

Ravendeth said:
A mechanic that doesn't play a role at low levels.
Why is this so important to people? I see it mentioned a lot, and it honestly stumps me. Is it really such a bad thing to have new players realize the advantage of a good defense or a good offense? Is red health inherently a bad mechanic?
The point is more that solos don't need a buff that helps them at low level play, because solo is already good there. Doesn't have anything to do with realizing advantages etc.

Ravendeth said:
I realize that a lot of this seems like strawman-type arguments, but I am genuinely trying to understand what people think the better alternatives are. I am trying my absolute best to address and discuss peoples' points honestly and respectfully, unfortunately I am well-known as an abrasive ill-informed fuckhead. If I am being ignorant, then enlighten me.

Is doing more work with teams *really* what holds us back from getting better at the game and understanding complex options present? Is having to get better and learn options, what holds us back from getting better? Shouldn't more options be winning in theory? Personally I'm just thankful that I don't have to neutral jump hadoukens all day, and for an intelligent community.
I would prefer if whatever buff solo got led to more interesting decision making. Getting back your red health as a team involves some decision making and risk/reward analysis. Regenerating red health as solo, if it leads to any decisions, leads to ones that make the game less interesting to play/watch. A straight health buff to solos would honestly be better since it wouldn't incentivize turtling.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Solos having alpha counter is stupid. Enough people have suggested it that I really wonder why people don't think so.
Maybe they don't realize that this would never allow someone to complete a combo on a solo, or be fair, or smart
 
Mike_Z said:
Solos having alpha counter is stupid. Enough people have suggested it that I really wonder why people don't think so.
I personally haven't had 10+ years of studying and playing fighting games under my belt, and I know many of the other posters on this site also are really getting into fighting games for the first time with SG as well. Please forgive us for not always understanding how dumb a mechanic would be before seeing it firsthand. As I'm sure is also the case with everyone else, I'm always open to hearing why a mechanic is bad if you could spare some time to explain it.

cloudKing211 said:
Maybe they don't realize that this would never allow someone to complete a combo on a solo, or be fair, or smart
Aren't Alpha Counters only on block? How would they affect combos?
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
to be honest i do not see a reason to really rag on the solo regen. does a snap from a trio take the red health of a solo btw?
it should. that seems like it would be fair. also, does a solo still regenerate health if they're getting hit while blocking?
 
This is coming from a beginner as well, but I think alpha counter on solos would go something like this:
-Solo is blocking
-Alpha counter
-Cancel into mashed reversal super
-Other player was still trying to attack (pressin' buttons)
-Other player gets hit, solo may get a free combo depending on the super. Could lead to dead character for other player due to high damage output of solos

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
 
Apex said:
This is coming from a beginner as well, but I think alpha counter on solos would go something like this:
-Solo is blocking
-Alpha counter
-Cancel into mashed reversal super
-Other player was still trying to attack (pressin' buttons)
-Other player gets hit, solo may get a free combo depending on the super. Could lead to dead character for other player due to high damage output of solos

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
i didn't say something like that. i meant like a harmless repel mechanic at the cost of health or something. BUT i don't even want to see that. i was just looking at options people might want to take.
 
so in other words give more health to solos but at the same time give them less health? what?
 
So like a red hp burst kind of thing, right?

The issue with this is that then solos would have a tool that duos and teams of 3 wouldn't have. And they already have auto regen.
 
and we can't have solo getting options now. we here in the skullgirls community don't like having those.
 
I wouldn't call it an option; more like an advantage.
 
Apex said:
I wouldn't call it an option; more like an advantage.
oh that would be even worse because people might do the horrible thing and play solos more
 
I don't care what number of characters someone plays. What's important is that the game remains relatively balanced.
 
SanoBaron said:
so in other words give more health to solos but at the same time give them less health? what?
....NO you pillar happy.....GAH

i'm saying when you do a repel like option you use up all your red health. and the minimum is like 1/6 of something. THAT"S what i was saying. how can you give more health to a solo character? that's a fixed amount anyways. its only obvious if you subtract from the fixed amount.
 
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Apex said:
This is coming from a beginner as well, but I think alpha counter on solos would go something like this:
-Solo is blocking
-Alpha counter
-Cancel into mashed reversal super
-Other player was still trying to attack (pressin' buttons)
-Other player gets hit, solo may get a free combo depending on the super. Could lead to dead character for other player due to high damage output of solos

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
I'm looking at it this way: Alpha counters cost 1 bar, and supers cost 1 bar, so in that situation you're spending 2 bars to maybe get a combo (depending on the character: I think Parasoul, Fukua, Filia, and Squigly are the only ones that get combos everywhere). And solos do a lot of damage, but I'm not sure if any character can even TOD 1v3 off of a super starter without using another bar, so to kill you probably need to spend at least a third bar (and even then you may not kill). Trading 3 bars for one out of 3 characters dead doesn't seem like too good a deal to make it dumb.

Also, you can totally counter Alpha Counters fairly easily in this game, since their big super flash gives you time to input whatever you want to beat it. Even if someone has a really good DP or an armored move or something, you should be able to bait them into doing it if you know they're stressed.
 
Isn't it something like 90F in neutral before a Solo gains back red health? If you play with teams and the solo is constantly gaining health back, you're kinda fucking up, ya know? In most cases where solos gain health vs teams is because most people that play teams rely on their assists for neutral so as a result, Solo will stay back a bit and get back a little health. Also, since Solos prey on dumb assist calls, this works in their favor so naturally it appears as a "turtling" tactic because both players are choose to be passive while looking for an opening.

Let me add that giving Solos a Stunt Double/Alpha Counter would be silly because if you prescribe to the idea that solo health regen encourages super defensive play, then giving them the equivalent of a Dead Angle, something that knocks the attacker down & away with 13F invincibility, doesn't help things. Aside from increasing meter gain (slightly) there's really nothing that can be done to Solos to make them "stronger" or there to be more parity. But hey, if people think giving solos Dead Angles is a great idea, I won't turn it down!

To be perfectly honest, most Solo players from my experience don't really see the game the same way as those that play teams because those that do choose to play solo, appreciate strong neutral & defense (and (lol) two-touch deaths) because it's seen as a means of getting around not having all the other neato options in the game when picking teams. People that pick teams are always going to hate things like losing their character in one reset or losing 1/3 (or more) of their assist's life because of an assist call punish. That's understandably frustrating but know what is also frustrating?: Being pressured into the corner by two characters and having no options for escape and retaliation beyond "block well, use Absolute Guard, Push Block correctly, PBGC get out/reversal and safely tech roll". Solos don't get safe DHCs, Alphabursting or assists but they kill faster and take longer to die. That's the give & take.

Let's also point out that many of the defensive options like Push Block Guard Cancel and Alpha Bursting have been in the game for a while but it has only been in more recent times that more players are actually using them, so clearly "improve your defense" is definitely a limitation players across the board need to strive for and achieve and that goes double for solo users. It takes more work to win with Solos because without an assist, space control and maintaining pressure is much harder. However, if you pick Solos, you understand that option is a harder path and they typically aren't the ones blubbering about it because they deliberately choose to not have those options in order to have raw attack power and stamina. So honestly, I don't see a point in making them "stronger." I think they are strong enough and players that choose to play solo just need to get better. Myself included.
 
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Why do you even need an alpha counter when this game has PBGC.

With characters like Head on Fortune/Cerebella (If horns somehow actually hit)/Big Band/Squigly (With charge)/Parasoul (Situational, If they are high enough) you even get to combo after a successful PBGC DP meterless, And most of the rest of the cast can just combo from other reversals for 1 meter after a PBGC whatever (Updo into gregor, etc).

-------

I gotta say though, Solos should always stay as the training wheels for the game, playing a "VS" style game with no assists is just wrong. There's no reason for them to be more viable than they are right now, If they are given more damage or more health any solo character that has a noncommittal option (Headless Fortune, Fukua shadows, Peacock) to actually play the game and take risks to get something in return will easily have a huge advantage in comparison to the other solo characters, let's not forget that people played solo Fortune since SDE because of the 1v3 TOD from any hit thing.
 
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Whatever happened to meter regen for solos instead of hp regen?
 
Broken Loose said:
Whatever happened to meter regen for solos instead of hp regen?
I tried it, it either didn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference when the gain was low or it made a HUGE difference when it was mid/high.
But most people who play solos said "I didn't even really notice it", even when it was something like 2 bars per round, which I chalk up to them not paying attention. :^P
I'm willing to try it again, though.

For the record, life regen in 1v1 is probably not staying even if it stays in 3v3. That was a side-effect.
 
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