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Solo regen health

Night Phyre said:
D:
I won't miss it.
When 3 rounds in a row ends with less than 10 seconds left on the clock, something is wrong.
 
Just gonna chime in and say I think Solos in retail are mostly fine as is, pre-whatever buffs and stuff may come. Shin put it in probably too many words, but yes I feel like the problem is that us Solo players just need to step up our play rather than anything mechanical within the game.

Broken Loose said:
Whatever happened to meter regen for solos instead of hp regen?

While I'm mixed about health buff in general, I thought the meter buff was the most silly buff that I'd rather not have for 2 reasons, 1 personal 1 not personal.

Non-Personal reason: Meter buff helps some solos far better than others. A Solo like Valentine or Eliza and hugely for Squiggly, it's great since all these characters get a lot of benefit from having access to more meter since it aids their neutral game potential more than others. But compare it to, say, Solo painwheel, and it you see that it doesn't really change the neutral game that much since usually solos already have at least 1 bar at any point in neutral unless they are particularly mashing/reversaling supers. It's just a fact that not every character uses meter the same so it's a bit lame that only specific solos really get advantage from this kind of buff while the others pretty much do the same things. It'd be one thing if those were specific Solos that needed to get buffed, but I don't think that's the intention here.

Personal reason: I think it aids mostly in 2 areas that solos don't have any trouble with already and don't need any help with - more opportunities to mash reversal more and dealing more/better damage in combos than before. And as people alluded to above, these aren't really the problems Solos really have and imo just encourages more reckless play.

For a personal anecdote, as Parasoul Solo, I was already getting level 3 meter crazy fast before under the previous meter buff, and I thought it was silly that the change really only allowed me to mash Pillar xx Level 3 more often since (before the Sniper buff) there wasn't a lot of utility or neutral application with using supers aside from certain gimmicky things (like old Egret charge xx sniper, dash up pillar xx bikes). So I thought it was silly before that the buff just gave me more excuses to mash more, though the new Sniper buff would change things.

Mike_Z said:
Solos having alpha counter is stupid. Enough people have suggested it that I really wonder why people don't think so.

I suppose it's because, as far as I know, you never addressed it so none of us knew that you thought it was a bad idea and just kept rolling with it since no one ever said "No".

Night Phyre said:
D:

Playing against Fortune 1v1 is really really dumb. She basically took no damage when you poked the head, so imo good riddance, won't miss it at all.
 
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I'm a fan of solo health regen for 1 reason more people to play street fighter with 0.0
(Also I do think that this evens out the playing field for those of us that don like assists)
 
Dreamepitaph said:
....NO you pillar happy.....GAH

i'm saying when you do a repel like option you use up all your red health. and the minimum is like 1/6 of something. THAT"S what i was saying. how can you give more health to a solo character? that's a fixed amount anyways. its only obvious if you subtract from the fixed amount.
ah, okay. I was just confused. tbh, I'd rather the regen health thing stay over a counter that can be used. it provides solos with more health and opens opportunities for mind games.

also, I'm okay with it not staying for 1v1. if it actually does slow down the game in that regard.
 
Uzu said:
Why do you even need an alpha counter when this game has PBGC.
There are some setups that are nearly impossible to reliably PBGC when multi-hitting moves are involved, though. And trying to PBGC, you give the opponent a general point in their pressure where they know you may mash, so unless the attacker gets extra dumb they shouldn't really be hit by your PBGC. With assist pressure, every time you PBGC the opponent really should be approaching far enough away to not get hit by your reversal but close enough to punish if you tried anything, and if you don't PBGC they can just do it again. From what I've seen, PBGC eliminates brain dead approaches, but not any shape or form of smart pressure. And while I feel like smart pressure deserves to be rewarded, my best defensive option feels like it is limited to stopping dumb pressure. I don't feel like I have any real answer to smart pressure other than "wait until they stop being smart".

I feel like I should say I'm not specifically petitioning for anything new here, just want to discuss it (no one goes to the solo discussion thread...)
 
Apex said:
The issue with this is that then solos would have a tool that duos and teams of 3 wouldn't have. And they already have auto regen.

Well, then what about the fact that duos and trios already have tools that solos can't use? In fact, isn't that why we're having this discussion in the first place? Also no, solo's don't "already have" auto regen seeing as it's just an experiment. It might stay, it might not, something else may be added it its place, or perhaps along side it. That, or solos may just end up getting nothing :)

What do people think are the weaknesses of solos that specifically need to be addressed? Lack of offensive options? Susceptibility to strong offensive pressure? Health/damage differences? And for those of you who don't think solos should change, why is that?
 
I just want solos to be a viable option. I don't want it to be a "training wheels" I want it to be something I feel fits my playstyle.

I don't like assists, I've just never really been a fan of them. I want an option that feels fair to me for not wanting to use assists. not something that feels gimped just because "well then people might deviate to them more." or "well this is a team vs game" TTT2 had the ability to use solo (AND regen health) and I feel that one was more than fair, why can't Skullgirls?
 
It's easy to say that you just want them to be viable, but the real questions is "why" do you think they aren't viable. Some people seem to have very different opinions regarding what would be an appropriate addition for Solos, which suggest that people have different ideas regarding what's wrong (or not wrong) with solos in the first place. People also have very different opinions regarding the role of solos in this game, which makes this topic even more complicated...
 
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what if solo's had the ability to lockout their opponent's assists for a longer duration than normal? whether this be done by just hitting the assist when they're on-screen, or spending a bar and hitting the point char with some sort of burst or whatever seems fit. Just a thought, but this would certainly help solo's in the neutral game and would definitely help some solo's that have bad reversal options
 
Skullmageddon said:
It's easy to say that you just want them to be viable, but the real questions is "why" do you think they aren't viable.
Tournament results.
 
I think it's unfair because:

  • solos don't get assists, therefore less options. yet apparently that doesn't matter because "omg they do way more damage" some people just don't like using an assist. why should they get the short end of the stick because some people don't want the meta to change or 'make it harder' for them to be beaten?
  • what is addressed as an advantage for solos is the exact same thing as the advantages between a duo and trio: more damage and health. but guess what solos can't do that both team sets can do? regen health.
also, I feel it would add more mind-games of solos against teams and I don't give a fuck about tournament results.
 
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dMags said:
what if solo's had the ability to lockout their opponent's assists for a longer duration than normal? whether this be done by just hitting the assist when they're on-screen, or spending a bar and hitting the point char with some sort of burst or whatever seems fit. Just a thought, but this would certainly help solo's in the neutral game and would definitely help some solo's that have bad reversal options
Immediate thoughts, sounds a little too powerful
(These all come from a solobella player)

Locking them out longer: While this would help out one particular bella matchup i know (vs peacock/Brass Knuckles), depending on the length of lockout, this would really hamper teams effectiveness against solos, possibly to the point of being solo vs weaker solo. I see one of the draws of teams is having assists to cover the point character's weaknesses. If a solo can remove that, it's kinda a big thing.

Burst: This may not be too helpful (ex bursting peacock/brass team not in the corner means back to neutral, good for peacock, bad for bella)

I've played some with the health regen effect, but I don't think it's had too much of an effect on my winning or general gameplay.
Please take with grain of salt, I'm not stating ultimate fact
 
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dMags said:
what if solo's had the ability to lockout their opponent's assists for a longer duration than normal? whether this be done by just hitting the assist when they're on-screen, or spending a bar and hitting the point char with some sort of burst or whatever seems fit. Just a thought, but this would certainly help solo's in the neutral game and would definitely help some solo's that have bad reversal options
I like the burst thing better between these two. The first one is more like it's rewarding you for something you were going to do anyways. The burst thing is interesting, though. I don't know if that exact idea would work, but in general I like the idea of solos getting a better option to mess with assists.
 
mcpeanuts said:
I like the burst thing better between these two. The first one is more like it's rewarding you for something you were going to do anyways. The burst thing is interesting, though. I don't know if that exact idea would work, but in general I like the idea of solos getting a better option to mess with assists.

ditto, assuming it would cost a bar, I think it's a lot fairer. It requires the solo player to actively think if they want to do it or not, and it can take away some of their other options since it costs a bar of meter. like you said though, it would need some tuning and testing, but I haven't seen many people mention similar ideas so I'm just trying to brainstorm and get the creative juices flowing
 
Zidiane said:
Tournament results.

That also doesn't mean a whole lot. It's just a statistic. It's not enough to simply use numbers to make claims, you have to actually asses the information.

What about tournament results? Are there little-to-no solos placing in tourneys, or is no one entering tourneys with solos in the first place? If they aren't placing, then why? Is it because of disadvantages that solos have against teams in general? Or is it because of a bad series of specific matchups? What about player skill and experience? If no one is entering tourneys with solos, then why is that the case? Is it because most people don't consider solos to be a viable choice due to a lack of options? Are people playing with the team size they feel most comfortable with, or are players changing their playing habits in order to conform to what others say is the ideal play style for this game?

I'm not saying tournament results don't mean anything, what I'm saying is that I'd be more interested in hearing your actual opinion regarding the specifics of the matter :)
 
The two solos that made top 8 at NEC, who both lost their first round of top 8, were counterpicked by solos. I don't know what that means, if anything. It's interesting, though.
 
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I don't think tournaments should count as a be all end all statistic for what's fair and what's not.
 
SanoBaron said:
I don't think tournaments should count as a be all end all statistic for what's fair and what's not.
Not as a be all end all, no. Players win tournaments, not characters or teams, and players don't always pick their teams based on what's optimal. Some people pick teams based on what fits their playstyle, or because it's what's familiar. Inuchiyo literally said he picked Fortune because "she's the cutest". Etc. The other extreme of completely disregarding tournament results, though, I think is also bad.
 
Solo's are viable. If you're sad you don't have the options a team has... then pick a team >.>
I hate the idea of solos being able to lock out my assists for even longer than they already can. That's bs imo lol

If there's anything I'd want to give solos (who are currently healing in the beta which is dumb but I guess fair), it'd be something like the ability to spend meter to get a pushblock that pushes your opponent farther away, letting you return to neutral easier. That's it. .-.

Edit: To answer the first post it, yes, it looks like healing is positively received. They don't heal much last I messed with it though. Which I'm fine with.
 
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I say Tournament Results because they aren't arguable. One person can say "I think Solos are bad because X" and another person can say "Well, X is the tradeoff of being a solo", and that leads to just loops of arguing. Whereas "Solos are very rarely even make top 8 at Majors" kinda can't be argued with.
 
Zidiane said:
I say Tournament Results because they aren't arguable. One person can say "I think Solos are bad because X" and another person can say "Well, X is the tradeoff of being a solo", and that leads to just loops of arguing. Whereas "Solos are very rarely even make top 8 at Majors" kinda can't be argued with.
You can't prove a negative, is the problem. If a character or team is doing consistently well in tournaments, you can probably point to that as proof that that character/team doesn't need a buff. On the other hand if for example at a given tournament there are no Peacocks in top 8, that might not mean Peacock needs a buff. It might mean that there was only one Peacock player at the tournament, and said Peacock player had a hard bracket and choked in game 1 against WingZero. As an example.
 
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mcpeanuts said:
The two solos that made top 8 at NEC, who both lost their first round of top 8, were counterpicked by solos. I don't know what that means, if anything. It's interesting, though.

Fun fact. At the EVO team tournament team Solo Val bodied the shit out of Team Keninblack/Skar/Sonicfox
(shoutouts to @Outlaw_Spike @Shin ATproof other Val I don't remember)

The next time they played Sonic went solo Fukua to beat outlaw lol. And sure it was one game, but it showed me that yes you can win with solo, especially if you're fighting a person who plays duo. Vs trio its just harder, but 100% possible.
 
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Fizzxwizz said:
Snapping an assist locks it out for an extended duration. Much longer than just hitting it. Just snapping characters in general is a great way to deal with people who often call assist.
I actually forgot you could do this, and almost suggested it as a buff to solos.
 
Zidiane said:
I say Tournament Results because they aren't arguable. One person can say "I think Solos are bad because X" and another person can say "Well, X is the tradeoff of being a solo", and that leads to just loops of arguing. Whereas "Solos are very rarely even make top 8 at Majors" kinda can't be argued with.

Tournaments aren't a controlled environment, so it can be difficult to make a clean assessment on the validity of solos based on tournament results alone. It would be different if we actually set up a series of tournaments specifically designed to test certain aspects of game balance, but that's not the case. Since we're just referencing random tournaments that happen around the country/world (and over the internet for that matter), it's a little bit more difficult to draw any concise conclusions.

Mcpeanuts gave a pretty good example. There are a number of factors that need to be considered when attempting to make an assessment on the validity of solos based on tournament results, and since we don't have any control over those factors it can be difficult to really say much of anything sometimes.

Tournaments do provide something for us to discuss and analyze however, so they are a good topic of discussion when considering things such as team balance.
 
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all I want for christmas is solos to just be able to regen their red health. that's all I want and that's all I've really ever asked for, besides some equivalent.
 
fenster said:
addressed it so none of us knew that you thought it was a bad idea and just kept rolling with it since no one ever said "No".
I said No plenty...
fenster said:
Playing against Fortune 1v1 is really really dumb. She basically took no damage when you poked the head, so imo good riddance, won't miss it at all.
I never even thought of that. Heh. That should probably count as "being hit" in terms of regen, but that's unfair to Fortune, too...

SanoBaron said:
I just want solos to be a viable option. I don't want it to be a "training wheels" I want it to be something I feel fits my playstyle.
[snip]
TTT2 had the ability to use solo (AND regen health) and I feel that one was more than fair, why can't Skullgirls?
If some option is going to be better, and some option is ALWAYS going to be better, I would much rather it be teams because they bring more of the game's stuff into the match. That, you're gonna have to deal with. Teams will also generally naturally be better because they have more options, and more options always trumps fewer options. If solos got more options they'd probably have to lose a LOT of damage.

That said, solos are already a ton more viable in SG than R4s in CvS2 or the giants in TvC, so I feel like SG did decent job there.
Solos are terrible in TTT2, tbw.
Your arguments are kinda not great either..."IDGAF about tournament results" that's not tenable.
 
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I tried to visualize some of the suggestions besides Health Regen that I have seen posted to see what they might look like during gameplay.
They might be too strong.
mcpeanuts said:
The burst thing is interesting, .
dMags said:
spending a bar and hitting the point char with some sort of burst or whatever seems fit.
dekillsage said:
like the ability to spend meter to get a pushblock that pushes your opponent farther away, letting you return to neutral easier. That's it.

 
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Mike_Z said:
If some option is going to be better, and some option is ALWAYS going to be better, I would much rather it be teams because they bring more of the game's stuff into the match. That, you're gonna have to deal with. Teams will also generally naturally be better because they have more options, and more options always trumps fewer options. If solos got more options they'd probably have to lose a LOT of damage.

That said, solos are already a ton more viable in SG than R4s in CvS2 or the giants in TvC, so I feel like SG did decent job there.
Solos are terrible in TTT2, tbw.
Your arguments are kinda not great either..."IDGAF about tournament results" that's not tenable.
yeah, I'm not that great at stating my arguments. I'd make a horrible salesman.

I guess the best way to put it is that I'm just tired of "oh, you get more damage and health than a single member of any team. that's plenty fair" like, I understand I'm trading away those options when playing a solo, and I'm okay with that. all I want is the red health against teams, and I see a lot of people say that's unfair or shouldn't be implemented.

and by that last statement, "IDGAF about tournament results" I mean to me they seem like they would only show who was better and what were they better with. that might help add to it, I'm just saying I don't see it as a be all end all argument ender.

also, thank you for taking the time out of your day to respond to my statements.
 
Skarmand said:
I tried to visualize some of the suggestions besides Health Regen that I have seen posted to see what they might look like during gameplay.
They might be too strong.
das pretty coo

A more powerful pushblock is something I've always wanted. I know that just plain getting better at blocking is a valid solution to pressure, but I think it would be cool to be able to spend meter to just say GTFO to a space-invading, multi-hit attacker. It's not like it'd be OP for the defender, it puts them out of most ranges to attack. It also wastes meter, so it's a small win for the attacker who got forced out. Mostly, though, I like the idea because it lets the harassed defender decide some of the pacing, taking control of neutral out of the hands of the attacker (which, yes, I know there are other ways of doing).

I can see why it's not in the game, I just think it would be cool. Peacock using it would be a fucking nightmare, though.
 
really neat video, definitely helps to see it happen in the game. What you came up with for the "Lockout Assist Burst" part was also pretty interesting. When I mentioned that idea, the scenario in my mind was basically a combination of the 'Assist Burst Lockout' and the 'Guardbunker Breakout'. I think it could really help certain solo characters that don't have good reversal options when they're being locked down hard in the corner.

At the same time, it could be totally broken for other solo characters. For the cost of meter, there's the potential of playing a 1v3 game as 3 1v1's, which would be stupid as fuck. You'd need to restrict it to like a one time use or something and honestly, adding a mechanic that requires lots of tinkering to balance is probably a bad idea to begin with.

Anyway, after saying all that and watching the video and thinking about it more, I think the Pushblock idea is the best.
 
I'll put this here because it seems that this has transitioned into a bit of a conversation on the viability of solos, etc.

I run a solo Val, and so from that perspective the one concern I'd like to raise is that with some characters, even though they are on a team, their damage output and reset potential in relation to the amount of stun they produce can be a bit mean.

Eliza and Bigband can put a huge hurting on you while dealing moderate stun, allowing them to reset you and put that amazing damage potential back to good use. And thats while theyre on a 2 or 3 man team.

The short solution is "dont get reset" and "block really well". But its just one of those scenarios that makes the health+damage bonus from being a solo not count for too much. It's been a while since I played, but I think i remeber being down near 60% off of a pair of Eliza combos with a reset or something.

I'm still learning the meta for the newer chars and the strats for fighting them as solo Val, so this isnt a case of "X is too good". But I'm curious if any of you other solo players come across this same damge+stun dynamic against whomever, as well as whether it's something worth Mike looking into any further.
 
If solos were to get some other mechanic to put them on more even grounds with teams in neutral/defense they would indeed obviously need to lose some of their advantage in damage/health
I think that could be a lot more interesting though. Currently, playing solo against a team, or a team against a solo feels really dumb from both sides, though for different reasons:

A team takes absolutely forever to kill a solo, with the best way being to basically put them in the reset/pressure mixer while using exclusively reversal-proof setups (Tailored to which character you are facing of course). It's pretty tedious, and the neutral game itself, while obviously favoring the team player, feels really dumb and builds bad habits since you can just keep throwing out assists, completely unlike what you would normally get away with, provided you cover them well enough. Then if the solo does land a hit, you're in for optimal 20-second touch of death action (Resets optional). Hardly undeserved if you messed up with this kind of advantage, but that doesn't make it any less unbearable in practice.

From the other end, it's either complete frustration at being unable to do anything in the face of superior neutral/pressure options, or carelessly mashing away as unpredictably as you can without a care in the world because bringing an assist to 25% health and getting counterhit combo'd in return can actually be in your favour if the opponent isn't a genius at what they're doing. It emphasizes the flaws of this game in a really jarring way, like trying to turn two wrongs into a right. It's functional, but it's not fun.

Giving solos (versus teams) less damage and/or health in return for more options seems, to me at least, like it would make matches in these ratios more interesting instead of being boring when you're winning and bullshit when you're not (Heavy counterhit ToD'd for missing a frame-perfect PP backdash feels pretty bad)

Of course, I have no idea what kind of change would actually work well in practice, nor how easy it would be to implement.
 
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Only time a team takes forever to kill a solo is when you play a trio with bad damage output. Otherwise its kinda the same thing lol, except you die way faster if you yourself get hit.

Also, please link me to 1v3 TODs that doesn't involve a heavy counter hit and 3 bars. Because I don't see those happening anymore.
 
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dekillsage said:
Only time a team takes forever to kill a solo is when you play a trio with bad damage output. Otherwise its kinda the same thing lol, except you die way faster if you yourself get hit.
It probably doesn't technically take longer to kill than an entire team, but it sure feels like forever since you don't get any breaks.
When you've got your murder momentum going against a team, there's this moment every time a character dies where both players know they need to pay attention and act. Resetting a solo to death without running into undizzy is fun in a way I guess, but feels like pushing your luck, in an uncomfortable way like man this is the 7th reset and there's still more to go. A team gets gradually weaker as you kill parts of it, but a solo retains all their options so it definitely feels like you're getting much less done.

dekillsage said:
Also, please link me to 1v3 TODs that doesn't involve a heavy counter hit and 3 bars. Because I don't see those happening anymore.
Coming right up

Edit: 7 resets is a number I estimated without considering using meter for dhc damage, feel free to interpret it as hyperbole
 
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coming right up indeed.
dekillsage said:
Also, please link me to 1v3 TODs that doesn't involve a heavy counter hit and 3 bars. Because I don't see those happening anymore.
does no counter hit and 2 bars good enough for you?
Didn't you ever fight zidiane?

anyway :
I don't know for other characters, but bella has plenty of these.

Light weights :
• midscreen (aka not right against the corner)
c.lk c.mp s.hp kanchou
(insert devil horns here if needed to go towards the nearest corner)
c.mk
j.mp j.hk
s.hp pummel horse
c.mp s.hp run stop
s.lp s.hk (+copter if you didn't do devil horns) dynamo
c.lk c.mp titan knuckle copter dynamo

• corner :
c.lk c.mp c.hp
j.hp
s.lp c.mk
j.mp j.hk
s.hp pummel horse
c.mp s.hk copter dynamo
c.lk c.mp titan knuckle dynamo

Medium weights :
• midscreen :
same thing than lights

• corner :
same thing than lights
or, if you're not quite colse enought of the corner for the j.hp s.lp to connect :
c.lk c.mp c.hp
j.mp j.hk
j.hp
c.lk c.mp s.hp pummel horse
s.mk s.hk copter dynamo
c.lp c.mk titan knuckle (titan knuckle isn't even needed, just go for s.mk s.hk copter) copter dynamo

heavies :
• double, anywhere :
c.lk c.mp c.hp
j.mp j.mk j.hp
s.mp
j.hk
j.lk j.mp j.hk
s.hk copter dynamo
s.lp c.mk titan knuckle copter dynamo

or just midscreen kanchou combo...

• BB :
c.lk c.mp c.hp
j.mp j.hk
j.lk j.mp j.hk
j.lp j.mp j.hk
s.hk copter dynamo
s.lp s.mk s.hk copter dynamo

oh wait that one isn't quite a ToD.
Eh, the double combo is a bit harder on him, but works.
Or you go for swag and do :
c.lk c.mp c.hp
j.mp j.hk
j.hp double jump j.lk j.mp j.hk
s.hp pummel horse
c.mp copter dynamo
s.lp s.mp s.hk copter dynamo

or 5 or 6 other possibilities

or the medium weight combo...
 
dragonos451 said:
coming right up indeed.

does no counter hit and 2 bars good enough for you?
Didn't you ever fight zidiane?

Zidiane almost never hits me :P (ily Zid you're the best)
 
dekillsage said:
Only time a team takes forever to kill a solo is when you play a trio with bad damage output. Otherwise its kinda the same thing lol, except you die way faster if you yourself get hit.

Also, please link me to 1v3 TODs that doesn't involve a heavy counter hit and 3 bars. Because I don't see those happening anymore.

Thanks for the shoutout regarding Solo Vals at Evo btw.

As for 1v3 combos...you talking about just Bella or anyone? If anyone then off the top of my head with Val she can TOD a 1v3 anywhere from her Countervenom (2 bars) and 3 bars max with an EKG finisher on a team of 2. And she can easily do 12~13K+ depending on the starter for 1 poison and 1 bar near the corner. More poison would do the trick. No counterhit state....CH would be death for sure though lol
 
Also Big Band has 90% combo from 2LK mid screen using that basic combo from McPeanuts thread, ToD if taunt.
I'm sure he can ToD in the corner.


Big Band will be Big Band though.
 
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