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Solo regen health

Skarmand said:
I tried to visualize some of the suggestions besides Health Regen that I have seen posted to see what they might look like during gameplay.
They might be too strong.
I sincerely applaud your doing that just by using the existing game and mechanics and not-true-blockstrings, that was clever.

- Metered pushblock eeeeeeeh then everyone will just ask "Well why can't I do that on a team then?" and we're back to where we are now. Plus it still would get cut off if you get touched again.
- A burst that locks assists is the same as a snapback, only without the added benefit of bringing in another character and possibly removing red health...no?
- Alpha countering into a snapback that just kinda knocks down in trip stun, equivalent to a Dead Angle, is about as far as I'd go. Given that solos don't get a lot of meter compared to teams and it would come with a damage nerf I am not sure anyone would be happy about it, though. Also of course not possible in the air.
 
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Mike_Z said:
- Alpha countering into a snapback that just kinda knocks down in trip stun, equivalent to a Dead Angle, is about as far as I'd go. Given that solos don't get a lot of meter compared to teams and it would come with a damage nerf I am not sure anyone would be happy about it, though.
Awesome!
LET'S EXPERIMENT!
Mike_Z said:
don't get a lot of meter compared to teams
Could bump up solo Meter gain a touch too I guess to let them use their mechanic more if it's useful, since they don't get AG + Assist to create space to get out of corners

@fenster if this goes through lets jam and see how it goes
Someone else go play @Outlaw_Spike, I hate Valentine.

 
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Mike_Z said:
- Metered pushblock eeeeeeeh then everyone will just ask "Well why can't I do that on a team then?" and we're back to where we are now. Plus it still would get cut off if you get touched again.
Would everyone having it really be a problem? And if you're burning meter, why couldn't it just have it's own properties that still push out multi-hit moves? Would repel blocks break the flow too much, or something?
 
lol I'm sure people who don't play solo would enjoy them losing damage.
 
dekillsage said:
lol I'm sure people who don't play solo would enjoy them losing damage.
I'm also sure some people might like being able to safely push out a scary-looking high/low assist call. I just think it would be a cool option, is all.
 
If solos lose damage... I'm still taking EVO with solo Parasoul. :^)
 
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I'm fine with it if it means solos also still get red health.

and if they're still stronger than a single member of duo that'd be nice too.
 
I'm interested in meter gain increase but how much of a cut in damage are we talking about?
Gendo_Ikari_by_Darthval.jpg
 
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Night Phyre said:
Would everyone having it really be a problem?
Yes, I am not adding another game-wide mechanic.
Don't start.
Night Phyre said:
And if you're burning meter, why couldn't it just have it's own properties that still push out multi-hit moves? Would repel blocks break the flow too much, or something?
I don't want pushblock that always works regardless of timing, metered or not. It removes thought on defense, look at MvC3 and how much negating pushblock is important because it always works.

Shin ATproof said:
I'm interested in meter gain increase but how much of a cut in damage are we talking about?
Er. I never said a meter gain increase, that is not happening unless it's the red health thing which I already didn't like, but if solos get a unique mechanic (the point of this discussion) then they wouldn't also get that.
And the damage nerf would be basically just enough that none of the known 2-bar 1v3 100%s that don't require a CH work anymore. So take the highest damage one of those and subtract some.

tl;dr Given damage, I don't think solos have enough of a problem right now to warrant more than a small buff, which the healing is. If I experiment with a bigger buff (like Dead Angles) then it will come with a damage decrease at the very least, and it will not come with healing. I wasn't the one that said solos needed new junk.
 
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I think a better question is "why would it matter if everyone though super push block shouldn't be solo exclusive?" seems like it would make sense to be an extra benefit for solo characters, considering assists already provide for both offense and defensive options that solo's don't have. Not saying it would work or be a good idea, but I don't think there's any reason why it couldn't be a purely solo character mechanic if it were to exist.
 
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The least stupid thing I could think of would be scaling assist lockout frames relative to team size.

XvX: Standard lockout time
2v3/1v2: +10% lockout (99f on hit, 330f on snap)
1v3: +20% lockout (108f on hit, 360f on snap)

These might be large but I feel like this is way better than adding new mechanics to fix something that isn't broken.
 
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Damn this thread blew up. OP, I hope you got your answer. What people think has been laid pretty bare. Sorry if I turned your thread into a shitstorm trying to get discussion/opinion about this. People are pretty passionate about this game.

The current mechanic (as of Dec10th2014):
- Solos recover half of red health after 90f (1.5 seconds) of not getting hit.
- New unblocked hits outside of combos cut current red health in half.
- The rate appears to be 5 health per frame (300 health/s), meaning it will take 200 frames (a little over 3 full seconds) to recover 1000 health.
- Recovery startup is delayed by blocking any hits.
- Recovery is interrupted by blocking any hits.
- Not sure if being knocked down/ground teching counts towards the 90f startup time. Tried testing, but I'm that bad.

It seems that these are the prevailing controversies (opinions?):
1. People would prefer an active mechanic over a passive one. Concern that there is not enough decision making/interaction.
Frankly, I'm a simple man, especially when I give up gameplay mechanics. New interactions are shiny as fuck though.​
2. People would prefer solos to have an offensive mechanic over a defensive one. Concern that there is incentive to block over other options.
While I don't think attacking to regenerate is the "best" option, I still think the gigantic payoff makes it worth considering, even if it's not optimized for safety.​
3. Solo health regen is too easy. Concern that it's a mindless benefit.
Maybe? Who knows. Honestly I get impressed if a guy can avoid 2v1 for whole seconds in a game like this.​
4. Solos exist. Concern that they are good/annoying for less effort than teams, making the game dumber.
I'm of the opinion that "more options means stronger gameplay at higher levels", human error isn't the game's fault.​
5. I like numbered lists. I am horrible at relating to the concerns of others.
There is no patch for this.​

Thank you @mcpeanuts for a clear, straightforward, respectful response (little late I know). Shout-outs to everyone (too many people) speaking out their honest opinions and ideas with both guts and civility. What started out as a week of "I hate everyone" for me restored my faith in humanity just a bit.
 
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Health regen? cool with me. And I'm extremely fond of how pushblocking/absolute guard work now, (though granted, in some situations it can be difficult to read whether: a certain high will connect before the low; or whether my pushblock anim is just about to end and thus I need to readjust my block; or exactly what's going on with a particular unfamiliar multihitting normal...)

My problem with solo vs team isn't being unable to deal with the pressure: that's what absolute guard is there for. It's rough, but possible to block crazy pressure. My problem, however, is with seemingly free pressure against certain solos, due to making everything safe with a well-timed assist call. Though it's expected: with an assist, you have options and can minimize the degree to which you can be punished and create a ton more safety for yourself. But some solos have very few answerss for that situation, especially without meter. You have to quite literally block until they screw up.

So maybe the move to "make solos more viable" is something along the lines of "it takes X seconds/frames longer before you can call assist after calling assist, in comparison to currently", making it so that the team-player has to go it solo for a small-yet-significant while longer.

My last comment may have been buried in the thread or deemed off-topic, but rather than necessarily getting a new system tool (which you ruled out @Mike_Z), I'd much rather see certain individual characters' damage, and damage-to-stun-output-ratio reevaluated, given that: 1) with the right team you get "free" pressure against a solo and a "free" pressure escape; 2) that the damage output, even on a team, of certain characters- in conjunction with that pressure- minimizes the health advantage of a solo; 3)the amount of stun certain characters build allows them to get a ton of damage off of a reset that makes the health of a solo less impressive.

--------
And for folks feeling like playing solo is the wrong way to play, or EZMode- that's a peculiar way of seeing things... I don't think folks are playing solos because of an inability to play teams. I think we just wanna play the char we enjoy, and for it to be possible even if we gotta put in extra work (I agree Mike, it does work in this game). And I personally enjoy the flow of playing a solid neutral, blocking well, then dismantling a team.

Someone said it was training wheels. Yet, the way I see it, playing solo is like playing expert mode. You've got nothing but your char's tools, your combos & resets, the ability to punish, and your ability to block really, really well. No free escape from lockdown assists, no free escape from corner pressure, no free answer to reset attempts... You just plain can't get hit most of the time. There's much less room for error, especially when characters like Eliza, BigBand and Bella can put out damage that makes the solo health buff evaporate. Doesn't really sound like training wheels.
-----

tldr-
-health regen? cool with me
-I really like pushblocking/absolute guard as it is
-I don't really need another system tool
-But in lieu of giving everyone an invincible-teleporting-DP (totally joking), maybe it could just take longer before a player can call an assist again because reasons. That way, there are more areas in a team-player's pressure game where they can't just mash assist on their unsafe move. Now I can better fight my way out, yet they can still apply their pressure. Maybe this extended window affects additional assist functions, such as the alpha counter.
-That said, some characters hit really hard, reset really well, yet do little stun. Solo says: ouch.
 
I mean I get the idea that solo players feel like they need more stuff to deal with the options a team has, but I really think you guys are kinda over exaggerating now.

How is playing 1v2 any different from playing 2v2 and having your first character reset to death instantly?
or playing 3v3 and having it go down to 3v1 cuz your first two characters died. You can still win in those situations, we've all done it before. Solo's just start off with these odds, but they at least have a massive amount of health to make mistakes and damage to punish mistakes super hard. Be the better player.

The way assists work now and how the lock out works is fine as it is, imo.
Your current issue of, a solo has to deal with pressure and can't do much if I time my assist right, is not exclusive to solo players. Peacock players, even with a team, will have this problem. Double players will have this problem. Fukua players will have this problem.

If you think players who play teams don't have your problems, pick a dp assist and see how much it actually ends up helping you overall. Because I don't agree at all that playing a team means free escape from lockdown assists, free escape from corner pressure, and free answer to reset attempts. There's no such thing.
 
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Broken Loose said:
Agreeing with sage. How is it that solo players bitch so much about not having assists but duo players don't bitch about double snaps?

3v2 and you get double snapped
THAT is true skullgirls horror.
 
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@dekillsage ' "free" against a solo', was my point. And quotes to imply that it's not really free, but is significantly less risky in that scenario. Especially when you remove meter from the equation.

Of course nothing in the game is free in actuality. But in certain solo matchups it may as well be.

And my other point was: rather than additional tools to solos, if something is going to be reevaluated, lockout should be considered (not a new lockout mechanic, but how long between calls), and the stun-damage of some folks.

I feel like that could potentially have feasible balance of benefits and detriments to appease those concerned about solos without totally pissing off the planet.
 
tekkaxe said:
the stun-damage of some folks.
That's...not...really...a thing that can change?
Regular damage yeah, stun is universal.

I do like the extra lockout idea, but I would pretty much only do that for solos, I don't think duos need another advantage vs trios and it would just make things that much more confusing to learn.

I am sort of of the opinion that solo damage should be just a smidge less anyway, hahahahaha.

@Ravendeth
Health regen is a set % of your lifebar, not of your life number, although since everyone has the same health that only matters for 1v1 which is gonna lose regen anyway so yeah.
Being thrown, even if teched, counts like being hit does.
Blockstun, ground tech, wakeup, burst, and vulnerable [Under-Night]-after-burst fall stop regeneration and reset the timer before it will start again.
 
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I WAS going to make another 5-page post about solos, and whether new mechanics are a good idea, but then I realized the thread title: Solo Regen Health. and then I made a different 5 page post.

My opinion is that solutions should focus on the strength of a solo, and not taking away the strengths of a team. Solo Regen Health does that, in my eyes.

I mean you only play with assists maybe 25% of the game time anyway, isn't the rest of the game just neutral and such? Why is the outcome always blamed on team size, on random reversals, on double snaps, or whatever else that are always present regardless of team size? Are we really in a world of random assist calls and random reversals?

I like solo health regen, personally. It's not perfect, but it rewards good neutral, good defense, and good offense, instead of using hard-earned meter on dubious decisions like "should I snap in anchor filia or fight parasoul?" or superpushblock, or other things that simply return to neutral. I don't really want alpha counters or get out of jail free mechanics, because then why bother doing super with some characters.

TvC tried some of this stuff already, like metered solo defense mechanics, alpha counters, and even free snapbacks. I don't need to tell you how well that went, but none of it addressed the issues of imbalanced team sizes. It just made everything in the pressure game godawful and annoying for both sides.

If you really are not convinced yet, imagine solo big band, solo painwheel, solo fukua, with additional defense tools. Imagine fighting that. Imagine matchups.
 
dekillsage said:
How is playing 1v2 any different from playing 2v2 and having your first character reset to death instantly?
or playing 3v3 and having it go down to 3v1 cuz your first two characters died. You can still win in those situations, we've all done it before. Solo's just start off with these odds, but they at least have a massive amount of health to make mistakes and damage to punish mistakes super hard. Be the better player.

The way assists work now and how the lock out works is fine as it is, imo.
Your current issue of, a solo has to deal with pressure and can't do much if I time my assist right, is not exclusive to solo players. Peacock players, even with a team, will have this problem. Double players will have this problem. Fukua players will have this problem.

If you think players who play teams don't have your problems, pick a dp assist and see how much it actually ends up helping you overall. Because I don't agree at all that playing a team means free escape from lockdown assists, free escape from corner pressure, and free answer to reset attempts. There's no such thing.

EXACTLY

This is the conclusion I came to over a year ago when I chose to run from a full team to Solo Valentine. I was finding myself capable of running back sets the longer I had Valentine alive on my team, even when she ended up being the only character left alive. Since ultimately every match ends with a "solo", you have to learn to take advantage of all the limited tools available to you to survive so I may as well put my best foot forward from the start and play to the strengths of my strongest character.

So when people go "Stop playing solo/you should pick a team/(some other dumb shit about Solo vs Teams)" Fuuuuuuuuck ooooooooooooff! All y'all have to deal with the shit I go through every match eventually and ultimately at a greater disadvantage than I and sometimes (or rather quite often lol) early in the match.
 
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Skarmand said:
Also Big Band has 90% combo from 2LK mid screen using that basic combo from McPeanuts thread, ToD if taunt.
I'm sure he can ToD in the corner.


Big Band will be Big Band though.
I can verify that combo with taunt does ToD in 1v3. There's a more optimized version that might kill without the taunt, but I haven't tested it.
 
lemme say this to start:

any time I said mentioned solos have less options, I mean that people would say solos are OP even when they didn't get red health.

all I ever wanted was red health regeneration. I never meant to ask for another mechanic.
 
naw, just other people who play skullgirls but aren't on here.

then again, I haven't spoken to those people in a long time, so I don't even know what they're doing now.
 
SanoBaron said:
lemme say this to start:

any time I said mentioned solos have less options, I mean that people would say solos are OP even when they didn't get red health.

all I ever wanted was red health regeneration. I never meant to ask for another mechanic.
What, like how teams regen health when they're tagged out? Well, you're not getting that without adding a new mechanic because you can't tag out.
 
I meant I just wanted SOME kind of way for solos to regen health. like DS3 or TTT2. you get it back when you're not getting hit or blocking hits.
 
IsaVulpes said:
And lastly, as very personal opinion:
If you make Solos 1:1 as strong as Teams even at the highest level, there's really no fucking reason to play a team, where you are far more susceptible to losing randomly and have to put in 3x the work.
Do you really want to limit SG with its countless assist possibilities, fun team synergies, etc to a 1v1 game?


This is exactly how i think as well.

My thing against solos has always been that i hate playing trios against solos. If i lose anywhere from 1-3 games against a solo player where its something like i did 80% damage to them off the first hit and then they guess right on a reset reversal or block correctly once and get out and then get a conversion and then kill my entire team, sometimes in as little as 4-5 resets/starters because of all the meter i gave them by wooping them... Thats when i just "counterpick" with a solo myself.

But it doesnt always work like that. When i played against gfarmer back in the day when he was still going solo and i lost to him with my team, i knew it wasnt because solo, i knew i was just getting outplayed, i never bothered to try and play solo against him. I will generally go 1v1 when i feel like its the solo that is giving my opponent an advantage. Not giving my opponent any kind of inherent advantage is one of the things that keeps me up at night.

Like most longer time fgc players, i came up playing 1v1 games and i dont have any qualms about playing 1v1 to get wins. I do not like playing solos though. I dont like the hit they take at neutral, i dont like unassisted play in general.


The way ive been playing this game for awhile now (over a year) is that if i get beat by a ratio other than the one I'm playing (my main ratio is 3 because 3 is the funnest ratio imho), i generally switch to that ratio that i lost to and in doing so i will generally go with a team/character that has a favourable matchup against my opponents team.

This is actually one of the prime reasons why i feel like teams of 3 are better than solos at the end of the day. With a team of 3 i can mix and match my assists and team order/strength and still be playing a character or team i am pretty familiar with even if i dont play it that much.

But a solo player generally is only going to have 1-3 characters to choose from and their main character will be much much stronger than the others so they usually dont have an actual counterpick option.

For that reason, players that use teams will probably always be stronger players overall just because of the fact that they are forced to see the game in so many varying ways.


-more on topic:

I dont like the solo health recovery mechanic much, but I'm not particularly against it either.
I echo most sentiments about it that have already been said in this thread.
 
OT:
Dime_x said:
counterpick
As someone who's played crap characters for his entire fighting game career, I don't really think counterpicking is much of a thing unless you're like choosing a character that gives you a 9-1 matchup the other way, or unless your original matchup was 9-1 against you.
Chances are the other person already has a ton of practice against characters that give them bad matchups, which means you generally have to be better with your counterpick character than you were with your original character, and since they aren't who you spend most of your time on that's not gonna be the case.
 
You are right. Counterpicking as i used it isnt the right word to express the idea that I'm talking about. I'm talking about using characters that i personally have better matchups with against people.

How to say that in a word i have no clue, but the basic idea is i personally may have a better matchup against peacock with solo parasoul than with solo painwheel, so i use solo parasoul to deal with the matchup instead of painwheel (yes i know pw has a better overall matchup against pc than ps, but I'm just using an example) so if I'm losing to a good filia with my pw i will more than likely switch ratios to BB point duo since i feel like i can handle certain aspects of filias anti pw neutral game batter with BB. But as an example, lets say that i used BB first up and got him slaughtered by filia because of "high flying" stuff... Well i personally would move to pw because i feel like my pw personally at least has a better matchup against "high flying" hijinks than my BB does.


So to me it "feels" like Counterpicking my opponents playstyle, though as i said you are correct in that my use of the word was clearly wrong in the above post, because the way i used the word in my above post alludes to sg having some really terrible matchups which i personally think that for the most part, sg doesnt have, save for like pc versus parasoul, and fukua versus BB, both of which are very winnable.
 
I like solos. I don't ever want to lose damage on them, please. The regen is nice, I guess, but I don't really care for it either way. Some way to lock out assists for a little longer might be nice, though. Like snapping them out for a longer lockout, or just doing enough damage to them to cause that, or something.
 
zarkingphoton said:
I like solos. I don't ever want to lose damage on them, please. The regen is nice, I guess, but I don't really care for it either way. Some way to lock out assists for a little longer might be nice, though. Like snapping them out for a longer lockout, or just doing enough damage to them to cause that, or something.
What would you say if you were able to snap assists and lock them out for, just making a number up, 5 seconds? Would that be satisfactory?
 
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Broken Loose said:
What would you say if you were able to snap assists and lock them out for, just making a number up, 5 seconds? Would that be satisfactory?
That'd be perfect.
 
Broken Loose said:
What would you say if you were able to snap assists and lock them out for, just making a number up, 5 seconds? Would that be satisfactory?
wouldn't make any difference for me. But if that means new toy for others, I guess I won't try to take it away from them.
 
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