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Speculation: Cerebella vs Story Mode

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Chrono_Tata said:
The person who stated that Cerebella was "pure" was Marie. Even with the influence of the Skull Heart, she is still a human who has a relative view of pureness. The full line for that is "Strange - you are pure, somehow untainted by the company that keeps you".
Just thought of this, but; if Marie is viewing Cerebella's "Pureness", how does she assess it at a glance? I personally can't look at someone and see how pure they are. Is this an ability of the Skullheart she's accessing? Is it Marie specific? Either way, the way it's worded is still misleading (hence so many people taking it as literal). Could have read "Strange - you are somehow untainted by the company that keeps you". To me, using the word "pure" in a story that revolves around the word feels like it should carry more weight and importance.

She is expressing surprise at her level of purity despite hanging out with the Medici gang, whose members that Marie has encountered so far are probably a lot less pure of heart than Cerebella.
The thing that still doesn't completely sell me on that is Filia's story. In Filia's story, Marie acknowledges that Filia is not at all connected to the Medici's due to memory loss, but attacks her anyway:
Marie talking to Filia:
"I... only know one thing about you, Filia, and it's the only thing I need to know. Medici blood flows through your veins... The Blood I have sworn to spill!"

Marie's conversation with Bella:
"Strange - you are pure, somehow untainted by the company that keeps you... But your masters, the Medici, must never be allowed to claim the Skullheart. To eradicate them, I must eliminate you. I... am sorry. Die."

It just seems kinda odd that Marie shows no remorse (though she seems hesitant) attacking Filia, who knows nothing of her heritage, yet shows both hesitation and remorse with Bella, who actively assists Medici's but is treated more like collateral damage, unless she meant a little more then "you aren't a complete dick" when she said pure.
 
Either Marie is just a stupid-ass kid or it's just poor writing (which is understandable for these early story modes).
I'm guessing it's a little of both. Either way there's still no reason to be calling the clown pure.
 
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Zidiane said:
Just thought of this, but; if Marie is viewing Cerebella's "Pureness", how does she assess it at a glance? I personally can't look at someone and see how pure they are. Is this an ability of the Skullheart she's accessing? Is it Marie specific? Either way, the way it's worded is still misleading (hence so many people taking it as literal). Could have read "Strange - you are somehow untainted by the company that keeps you". To me, using the word "pure" in a story that revolves around the word feels like it should carry more weight and importance.
I have a feeling that it is somehow connected with her Skullgirl power. It didn't seem like they had nearly enough conversation for Marie to able to assess Cerebella's personality from just her words/appearance.

But yeah I can see what you mean there. It can certainly be misleading to throw out the word pure in the context, but perhaps intentionally so to add more intrigue for the players to ponder on the nature of wishes and purity (like we are doing right now lol). I think the game story presents to us an interesting paradox where the character which is described as pure is also the only non-villain character to straight-up murder someone in the story mode.

The thing that still doesn't completely sell me on that is Filia's story. In Filia's story, Marie acknowledges that Filia is not at all connected to the Medici's due to memory loss, but attacks her anyway:
Marie talking to Filia:
"I... only know one thing about you, Filia, and it's the only thing I need to know. Medici blood flows through your veins... The Blood I have sworn to spill!"

Marie's conversation with Bella:
"Strange - you are pure, somehow untainted by the company that keeps you... But your masters, the Medici, must never be allowed to claim the Skullheart. To eradicate them, I must eliminate you. I... am sorry. Die."

It just seems kinda odd that Marie shows no remorse (though she seems hesitant) attacking Filia, who knows nothing of her heritage, yet shows both hesitation and remorse with Bella, who actively assists Medici's but is treated more like collateral damage, unless she meant a little more then "you aren't a complete dick" when she said pure.
Revenge is not very rational sometimes, I suppose, and since Marie has vowed to eliminate all of the Medici bloodline, it no longer matters to her if the actual person is good or bad. On the other hand she has no vow to kill those who work for the Medici, but since Cerebella is getting in the way of her main goal then she must be eliminated.

But yeah, I think your last point goes back to what I was saying earlier about relativism. Given that Marie has been subject to and witnessed the worst of the mob enforcers (case in point: what happened to her friend Patricia), Cerebella is basically Mother Theresa in comparison.
 
Chrono_Tata said:
But yeah I can see what you mean there. It can certainly be misleading to throw out the word pure in the context, but perhaps intentionally so to add more intrigue for the players to ponder on the nature of wishes and purity (like we are doing right now lol). I think the game story presents to us an interesting paradox where the character which is described as pure is also the only non-villain character to straight-up murder someone in the story mode.
Maybe. I think it would have been more interesting if the alternate story endings were able to be used, and we got to see in game what a quote unquote pure girl would get with her wish.

Revenge is not very rational sometimes, I suppose, and since Marie has vowed to eliminate all of the Medici bloodline, it no longer matters to her if the actual person is good or bad. On the other hand she has no vow to kill those who work for the Medici, but since Cerebella is getting in the way of her main goal then she must be eliminated.

But yeah, I think your last point goes back to what I was saying earlier about relativism. Given that Marie has been subject to and witnessed the worst of the mob enforcers (case in point: what happened to her friend Patricia), Cerebella is basically Mother Theresa in comparison.
That first phrase sums it up I think, revenge isn't rational. Neither are fighting game stories most of the time, so it all fits in a roundabout way.
 
Zidiane said:
Maybe. I think it would have been more interesting if the alternate story endings were able to be used, and we got to see in game what a quote unquote pure girl would get with her wish.
I think an interesting take-away from it is that purity is not synonymous with goodness. According to the Skull Heart, pureness appears to be defined as selflessness (Filia's wish was deemed impure due to her trying to absolve her own guilt, for example), but even a selfless wish could be malicious.
 
Chrono_Tata said:
I think an interesting take-away from it is that purity is not synonymous with goodness.
Like some of that stuff I quoted last page was saying.
According to the Skull Heart, pureness appears to be defined as selflessness (Filia's wish was deemed impure due to her trying to absolve her own guilt, for example), but even a selfless wish could be malicious.
I think the distinction of being pure of heart and making a pure wish is important. Is a pure heart capable of an impure wish? Can a pure wish arise from an impure heart? And even if one was pure of heart and had a pure wish, would the Skullheart still give them exactly what they wanted? The legend just says that impure girls become Skullgirls, maybe that is completely separate from the reason their wish gets corrupted.
 
Reviewing the data on wishes and corruption:
  • Nancy Renoire- Wishes for peace, becomes a Skullgirl
  • Selene Contiello- Wishes for family returned, becomes a Skullgirl
  • Marie- Vengeance. Skullgirl. Synergy!
  • Filia- Canon Wish- Wishes for Carol to be better, but her wish itself is slightly corrupted by really wanting forgiveness for her unknown past. Painwheel makes it out okay; Filia has a slow transformation
  • Filia- Alt. Ending Wish- Wishes for memories returned, is chastised for wanting to "escape her fate," becomes Skullgirl
  • Ms. Fortune- Alt. Ending Wish- Wishes for family returned, chastised for gullibility and selfishness, becomes a Skullgirl
  • Painwheel- Alt. Ending Wish- Freedom- "Here, be a Skullgirl." Not sure if this counts as messing with the wish or not.
  • Parasoul- Canon Wish- "Umbrella never becomes the Skullgirl"- Eventual transformation; little commentary.
  • Peacock- Alt. Ending Wishes- There are things even the Skullheart can't do. This is possibly the most interesting- the Heart would like to, but actually can't. Also, "I didn't make the rules."
  • Valentine- Canon Wish- "Make me a Skullgirl!" "Done."
  • Cerebella- Alt. Ending Wish- Chastised for being foolish, wish is corrupted; doesn't actually become a Skullgirl
So: It seems the Skullheart's a dick, "but not 100% dick." The "greater agenda" appears to be bringing about the end of the world, so the Heart will seek to create murderous Skullgirls however it can. It can scan souls (Filia Canon), and has to operate within the parameters of its scan... but is still sympathetic to tough times. We know it can be relatively nice (Filia, See also Annie), but is easy to piss off (Alt Fortune, Alt Bella).

Looks like the Heart's dickishness depends on the purity of the user and the user's wish.
  • Slightly-corrupt person, good wish: Wish is okay, slow Skullgirl transformation (Filia)
  • Pure person, foolish wish: Jerk fulfillment
  • Slightly-corrupt person, foolish wish: Bam! Skullgirl
  • (Presumably) Pure person, wish is okay- Presumably begrudging fulfillment
Interesting is that the Heart was relatively civil towards Alt! Peacock, despite her own blatant foolishness and selfishness. So, I think the Heart scans for honesty and self-awareness, and is irked by hypocrisy and foolishness.

If the Heart can fulfill a wish through bloodshed, that's how it'll work 'cause bloodshed's what it wants.
 
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I wonder what would happen if you wished to be pure, would you become the skullgirl or would the Skullheart be like
"Dude, why are you even here? Get outta here ya mook!"
 
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Super Milk Chan said:
I wonder what would happen if you wished to be pure, would you become the skullgirl or would the Skullheart be like
"Dude, why are you even here? Get outta here ya mook!"

I think I saw somewhere that wishing to be a "good Skullgirl" would just get you killed. Might be in the Canon Info Thread.
 
The Dave said:
Interesting is that the Heart was relatively civil towards Alt! Peacock, despite her own blatant foolishness and selfishness.
I wouldn't take anything from Peacock's alt ending seriously, and especially not draw conclusions about Skullheart lore. The scene is obviously meant as a random comic relief. You can just hear the silly music and recorded laughter track at the ending progresses.
 
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Would it be considered selfish to wish something useless,like a bag or something,into anything that's still useless?
I.E, Turning a book into a sock?What would the skullheart even say?Doesn't sound too impure to me.
 
It would be selfish because you'd be wasting an opportunity to do something good for the world.
 
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Denizen said:
It would be selfish because you'd be wasting an opportunity to do something good for the world.
But do you know that?
 
Zidiane said:
I think the distinction of being pure of heart and making a pure wish is important. Is a pure heart capable of an impure wish? Can a pure wish arise from an impure heart? And even if one was pure of heart and had a pure wish, would the Skullheart still give them exactly what they wanted? The legend just says that impure girls become Skullgirls, maybe that is completely separate from the reason their wish gets corrupted.
The legend stating that the wisher has to be pure of heart is a good point.

Thinking about it logically, if one is to:

1) Define purity as selflessness,
2) Define selflessness as the complete lack of any selfishness, and
3) Judge a wish's merit completely based on the intention of the wisher,

Then it would be impossible for a completely pure person to make an impure wish (as they do not have any selfish intention in their heart). However, an impure person could technically make a pure wish by "withholding" their selfish intentions when making that wish.

So, let's say that we take the legend wording literally, even if someone makes a pure wish, if the Heart "scans" them and find that they have any impurity in their heart, then it would be completely within its rule to turn the wisher into the Skullgirl.

If you change any of the three assumptions though you could draw quite different conclusions.

On the other hand, if we believe the "Word of God" that wishes are inherently selfish, then a pure-hearted person would not make any wish in the first place.

Another point to take into account is that, as far as we know, the Skull Heart doesn't have any obligation on how it chooses to implement a wish beyond the wording of the wish. Even if a pure person makes a pure wish and escapes being turned into the Skullgirl, there is no stated reason that the Heart cannot "corrupt" that wish into something malicious anyway. (Going back to my point that purity isn't synonymous with goodness.)
 
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StairwaytoDolphinCreature said:
Would it be considered selfish to wish something useless,like a bag or something,into anything that's still useless?
I.E, Turning a book into a sock?What would the skullheart even say?Doesn't sound too impure to me.

If you're okay with killing a little girl skeleton monster to turn a book into a sock I don't know if you'd make a super good candidate for wishing.
 
Fizzxwizz said:
If you're okay with killing a little girl skeleton monster to turn a book into a sock I don't know if you'd make a super good candidate for wishing.
I'm just assuming here,but I think you have to beat Marie,which,by extension usually means killing her BEFORE your'e even allowed to wish,but that's probably me trying to justify my stupid attempt to trick a sentient heart shaped skull into not taking over my mind.
 
Chrono_Tata said:
Thinking about it logically, if one is to:

1) Define purity as selflessness
2) Define selflessness as the complete lack of any selfishness
3) Judge a wish's merit completely based on the intention of the wisher
I disagree with purity meaning selfless, though. I think it's much more like the definition I posted earlier, that purity is how true to yourself you are. "A pure heart has no hypocrisy, no guile, no hidden motives. The pure heart is marked by transparency and an uncompromising desire". Like, Vegeta, from DBZ.

if we believe the "Word of God" that wishes are inherently selfish, then a pure-hearted person would not make any wish in the first place.
What about Filia's wish? The wish was only impure because Filia felt guilty, and that influenced her intentions on making the wish. Wishing for the well being of another is selfless, and if it was so that the wisher had no ulterior motives (like Filia did), how could it be selfish?
 
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Yeah, but what happens to the ontology of Skull Heart purity when the game is rigged?

Chrono_Tata said:
The legend stating that the wisher has to be pure of heart is a good point.

Let's focus on the legend. Who is most likely the person who started and propagated the legend seeing how most Skullgirls end up dead after full transformation? Double.

The last three Skullgirls have all been ladies scammed in Double's and the Skull Heart's long con. But why is purity so highly valued by Double? I think that part is just a test. Each scheme it seems to be a test. Double is experimenting with different scenarios to see what kind of Skullgirl comes out as the result.

Double's journal:
  • Selene Contiello - plant the Skull Heart on her as a gift and tip off the Medicis. Her family murdered right before her, how will she react?
  • Nancy Renoir - the Queen often visits the grand cathedral to pray for peace. How will she react with the power to stop a world war?
  • Marie Korbel - homeless war orphan's only friend in the world get's kidnapped/beaten-nearly-to-death by Medici slavers. How will this girl react?
 
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Zidiane said:
I disagree with purity meaning selfless, though. I think it's much more like the definition I posted earlier, that purity is how true to yourself you are. "A pure heart has no hypocrisy, no guile, no hidden motives. The pure heart is marked by transparency and an uncompromising desire". Like, Vegeta, from DBZ.
Fair point. But yes, if we replace "selfishness" with "hypocrisy, guile and hidden motives", then we arrive at the same conclusion.

What about Filia's wish? The wish was only impure because Filia felt guilty, and that influenced her intentions on making the wish. Wishing for the well being of another is selfless, and if it was so that the wisher had no ulterior motives (like Filia did), how could it be selfish?
Perhaps the reason that the Skull Heart gave was not an exhaustive list of why the wish was selfish, just the most prominent one, which was enough to disqualify it as a pure wish. There are probably dozens of ways one could twist an otherwise pure wish to be selfish (a few have already been mentioned on this thread actually), although it goes down to the currently-unknown reasoning that Alex uses for the statement that "wishes are inherently selfish".
 
BallotBoxer said:
Yeah, but what happens to the ontology of Skull Heart purity when the game is rigged?

Let's focus on the legend. Who is most likely the person who started and propagated the legend seeing how most Skullgirls end up dead after full transformation? Double.

The last three Skullgirls have all been ladies scammed in Double's and the Skull Heart's long con. But why is purity so highly valued by Double? I think that part is just a test. Each scheme it seems to be a test. Double is experimenting with different scenarios to see what kind of Skullgirl comes out as the result.

Double's journal:
  • Selene Contiello - plant the Skull Heart on her as a gift and tip off the Medicis. Her family murdered right before her, how will she react?
  • Nancy Renoir - the Queen often visits the grand cathedral to pray for peace. How will she react with the power to stop a world war?
  • Marie Korbel - homeless war orphan's only friend in the world get's kidnapped/beaten-nearly-to-death by Medici slavers. How will this girl react?
I think the Double's (i.e. her master's) play involves the continuing creation of Skullgirls every 7 years for whatever purpose. I don't think it is a test as such, but Double screening out candidates that she know would make impure wishes that will turn them into Skullgirls. Given the situations that Double know they are in or the situations that she forces them into, she can predict what type of wish those women were going to make.
 
A person could be pure of heart but become impure because they killed another living being (the Skullgirl) to obtain the heart. Here's a question one if you wish for the heart to kill itself?
 
Another heart would spawn or you would become skullgirl.
 
Chrono_Tata said:
the currently-unknown reasoning that Alex uses for the statement that "wishes are inherently selfish".

Well... We don't know Alex's reasoning, per se, but the proposition itself makes a certain amount of sense. A wish is fundamentally an expression of desire, and desires ultimately come from an inner motivation therein IE a self-oriented request. It's like accusing a starving person of gluttony- not technically wrong, but it seems more like an excuse to pick on starving people at this point. Humans are naturally self-oriented because of how consciousness and determination work- "What do I see, what do I do?"

Perhaps a robot or a zombie could express a completely selfless desire, as any wish it makes would be through the remote control of a greater master. Otherwise, it seems the Heart pretty much exists to create Skullgirls and mess stuff up. If it can, it will. Note the casual lines from Double about the end of the world. It's a trap!

[Addendum] This is not necessarily a bad thing- "Make the world a better place" could be construed as a selfish desire to see people happy. "Make me a better person" could be argued to be a desire to be better than everyone else. Honestly? Your best bet is probably flying the Skullheart to the moon or something.
 
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Yeah, or rocket the Skull Heart into the sun.

Trying to outwit the Skull Heart with a pure wish is impossible. I'd wager any wish will result in becoming a Skullgirl. The legend is all part of the elaborate trick.

The Legend said:
Legend tells of an ancient artifact that can grant a woman's wish... The Skull Heart. However if she is impure of heart, she will be turned into an immmensely powerful, twisted being of destruction... The Skullgirl.

Chrono_Tata said:
I think the Double's (i.e. her master's) play involves the continuing creation of Skullgirls every 7 years for whatever purpose.

What is Double up to? I think she is experimenting to find the best host with the best motivation. Perhaps it is a scheme to reincarnate some other-dimensional being. Or maybe Double and her masters seek to wreck human society and can only manage control in this dimension in bursts (every seven years).

Incidentally, I like how Double is referred to as an "it" on the official bio:
It can frequently be found in the Grand Cathedral of the Divine Trinity, listening to confessions and attending to the catacombs beneath.
 
I thought doubles motivation was to carry out the godesses wish and destroy humanity.
 
Maybe its a more sinister intent. I always felt that the skullgirl was created to build up a body count, prehaps to bring life to the fallen goddesses?
 
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Super Milk Chan said:
Maybe its a more sinister intent. I always felt that the skullgirl was created to build up a body count, prehaps to bring life to the fallen goddesses?

Well, there was that giant pool of blood down in Gehenna. "Nice" goddesses don't typically collect giant pools of blood. Or, you know, manipulate grieving women into becoming terrifying necromancers.

Though I didn't expect "I will gladly accept your tithe... in blood" to be quite so literal.
 
popcorn_yes.gif
 
If only I still had that "rip boob lady 20xx - eliza" image...
 
So the way it seems to have played out the Skullheart basically operates on the same principal as the computer in the movie War Games: the only winning move is not to play.
 
Even killing it/doing nothing, the heart will reincarnate in seven years. Clearly, it needs to go to the moon.

Moon.png


Clearly. TO THE MOON!!!!!
 
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Cerebella is like krillin from Dragon ball z. When Lab zero wants to show the seriousness of the situtation they kill her off because they don't want to kill off anyone REALLY important to the plot. The is especially true when you take into account she's the only hero of the cast who died Double is a villian so I don't count her.
 
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Magma442 said:
Cerebella is like krillin from Dragon ball z. When Lab zero wants to show the seriousness of the situtation they kill her off because they don't want to kill off anyone REALLY important to the plot. The is especially true when you take into account she's the only hero of the cast who died Double is a villian so I don't count her.

Fortune died, in Double's ending, everyone dies, Filia is gonna die in Eliza's ending, Squigly...is already dead

Edit double post sorry
 
Broseidon Rex said:
I'm more in line with PKStoopKid's thoughts.

Well I'm more saying the fact krillin dies a lot but is always brought back to life.
 
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