Suggested Eliza changes for next balancing cycle

[FuLLBLeeD]

Hi everyone! Eliza got a lot better during the Annie update for sure, Sehkmet is useful and the risk is balanced by the MASSIVE reward on hit. Despite this, Eliza is still considered on the weaker end of the cast (bottom 2 if you love memes), and I feel like she could get better, but not game breakingly better, with a few changes. I've categorized this into things I feel she should just get, and saved my more wild ideas for the 2nd half of this post.


Without further ado:

Fix 5lp whiffing on crouching characters

self explanatory

L Spiral block advantage increased to +0, +1 or +2

Eliza's specialty is a mid range poke character who gets access to strong high low game as a result of actually winning said midrange. She doesn't have the insane frame advantage Fortune has, she doesn't have the speed and mixup potential Filia has, and she doesn't control the same as Valentine. Midrange pokes and reads are her niche. However, Eliza is at a huge disadvantage for not having a single special that is + on block. Yes, -2 spiral is safe, and yes, you can even do a jank frametrap off it with 2lk against characters like double, but Eliza lacks a tool for actual conditioning. A plus on block spiral would give her something she could do that the opponent actually has to respect and choose whether or not to pushblock out of, allowing Eliza to have a real conditioning tool that helps her intended playstyle. LK Spiral has very limited range so this would work with the rest of her kit without being too strong in my opinion.

TK Horus Gains Air Tracking properties when used in combos

Simply put, Eliza's DPs are a huge part of her gameplan. They are pokes, anti airs, and even a reversal sometimes. However, due to the nature of Skullgirls, Eliza is often screwed out of a reward on one of her best moves. J.mk can whiff (especially since the two new characters are so tiny), it is difficult to hit more than one character. Opting to just spend a bar and go into oki would give Eliza players a real option off this tool despite just betting the farm on a combo that might drop vs various opponents. The Eliza player would be giving up a bar, potential combo, and also happy birthday corner carry for this so I really don't feel this is too strong

MK Spiral vacuum blood drops and opponents on hit

Self explanatory. This is one of the most useless special moves in the game and allowing it to do these two things gives it an actual purpose. MK Spiral could be Eliza's one way to easily suck up blood drops outside of taunt boost. I think letting Eliza give up incoming pressure to just whiff MK Spiral and get free blood drops quickly would be fair, and giving her another long range confirm option is always nice.

WILD IDEA TIME

Throne of Isis (also known as "THE BOYS") is probably one of the weirdest moves in the game because of how niche it is. In an effort to make this more useful I propose this idea. Throne now carries an item with it Eliza can absorb. The items vary between small health increase and small meter increase (and they could be various food/drink items), however, the real strength of this is every 5th item is guaranteed to be a wine glass. Here's what that does:

Wine glass indicator under her portrait (since we know resource indicators are coming for characters other than umbrella).

Eliza has access to her level 5 super (yeah, that's back) only when she has the wine glass. The wine glass is instantly consumed when you use a level 5 (also you can only ever stock a max of 1 wine glass)

A new move where Eliza throws the wine glass (which also consumes it, obviously) and gains a stagger on hit. New mid range option the opponent has to respect and more useful confirms off 5hk.

Now before you think this idea is too crazy, consider how many knockdowns, or easily punished Throne of Isis in neutral Eliza would have to do to get this. 5 is A LOT. I think this would be a neat idea.

Interested to hear your thoughts!

 

[Sinclair]

Thank you for making this post before me. A lot of what you are saying right now are ideas i've had before or something I have wanted to suggest. I'm very happy with this post.

L Spiral block advantage increased to +0, +1 or +2

I would really like for L spiral to get a tiny buff. I do not mind it being +0 or +1 at all. Eliza is quite - during most of her specials. It would be nice to do L spiral on block and immediatly return to a situation where both you and your opponent have to guess. Roundstart is always fun for eliza because she has a lot of options to choose from, so forcing these situations where you have to rely on your many tools and play a quick game of RPS sounds fine in my books. I would like it even more if a blocked l spiral could push someone back in midrange which is even BETTER for Eliza. Give me some tools to turn the tables AND be confident about using it. Most of my tools rely on investing into the opponents low confidence in punishing me. But nothing on paper that says I am guaranteed some safety. Reminder that eliza is extremely tall, big bodied, and is - on most of her stuff. You can counter her by literally waiting things out and doing nothing. Making L spiral +1 and/or forcing opponent back in midrange would be great for her.

TK Horus Gains Air Tracking properties when used in combos

H khat is an amazing tool. Its an extremely reactive launcher. The fact eliza has this means she already is the boss when it comes to stage control. Sadly, when you do get a hit off H khat, you are forced to start an air string. When its on HC, its not a free string. Besides that, I am forced to use health to confirm off H khat that is not done in the corner (through cartouch). I think being able to choose wether you want to do a groundstring (through fullbleeds mentioned TK horus) would be very nice.
And I don't even think you should spend meter for it. Why should you get punished for reading someone the right way? You should get rewarded if you make the right choice. I am all for tk horus homing in and confirming correctly when its done correctly.

MK Spiral vacuum blood drops and opponents on hit

I had this idea myself for a while too, so its cool that great minds think alike! Ending your combo with M spiral should suck the blood from around the stage towards you.

WILD IDEA TIME

This is a really fun idea!!!!

As for my own things to add onto this for eliza:

5hk needs a buff. Its such a good button, but lacks a little bit of extra strength to be absolutely useful in the game. The thing is, it has its usefullness, but using it is a bit too risky. I like throwing out 5hk in neutral, baiting people to super at me (so i get to h khat/hkhat jc or butchers, whatever u can think of) or as a simple poke. I would love for it to be a poke in midrange, why does a character with great midrange tools need to commit to special tools that are all - and get her punished easy. I want her to be more of a bait and switch. 5hk is perfect, but not yet there.

Give 5lp x3 or 5mk some suction. Some characters like peacock fall out of certain combos outside of the corner esp and these buttons are often used at the end of combos.

Make the hitbox for los taller, or let characters not fly all the way up during H osiris. Doing H osiris into LoS you can miss your super. In the corner. And get punished for it really stupid. Now that Umbrella is back in the game I was reminded of it. Its just a very precise QoL that I was reminded of.

Earlier armor on 2hk startup. Boat baits are really fun. Eliza 2hk is amazing vs peacock and other opponents. There is nothing more satisfying than doing a well ranged 2hk into a perfectly ranged butchers/hkhat. My day also cant get better when I do 2hk into albus. It's just really funny how you can make people anticipate anything with that move. They will just stand still and think and watch your crash into them. I did notice that eliza can absolutely use 2hk to her advantage but what ultimately stops her is her huge body. You get hit by any projectile flying 450 mph into her head because this woman is big. What would safe her would making projectile armor startup earlier when she does 2hk.

Let me hold HP so sekhmet will instantly return to his body after LoS or nekbite. Losing the tiny bit of health when you touch the ground is just...annoying lol. Going back to your body is not instant. Besides that, enough times where i missed my qc. Just a little detail, really.

Give me nekbite DHC with the input of butchers but cancelling it into nekbite. I already cancel sekhmets turn into instant nekbite if I am on full UD but want to eat anyway at the end of a combo without going for H osiris > Spiral. Eliza should be able to do this as a DHC. You lose all your red health anyway when you tag in, espescially if youre using sekh as an assist.

Nekbreaker should track. The amount of times where I have done nekbreaker in a DHC war only to miss by a hair is very odd to me. Think of situations where you jump over a supers like gregor, flatliner and other forward moving supers. Sometimes I even end up inside the super and die when I want to use nekbreaker to punish. BTW I want to use nekbreaker because you get good safejumps out of it. Albus punish scales so much.

My wild idea:
I still like the idea of being able to move your blood around. Now, Eliza is extremely terrible at approaching. Really. Your counter play versus eliza trying to get into you is to just jump out of albus, throne, and do nothing when shes dashing towards you. Sometimes you're forced to pick H beam or something to get in VS opponents who know this playstyle counters her (reminder, she's - on all her specials and tall).
My idea was, what if you could give eliza the ability to hurt herself, and send her blood around, and maybe, hold the opponent down with your blood? This means they're frozen in place for a bit (with the cost of your health) making your approach easier without having to rely on 2hk cancels and mindgames?

Thank you

 

[Speakeasy]

Yes yes yes to LK Spiral having better frame advantage, I'd give my left arm for that. Likewise to making s.LP or s.MK suction or something to keep small light characters from falling out of combos, I would love that. I don't necessarily agree with

So this will all need to be filtered through the lens of "this comes from someone who hasn't actively practiced Skullgirls or *any* fighting game since the pandemic started and is a complete scrub that plays single player games now" but I also agree that couch really doesn't have much of a use. It feels like the game wants you to use it to contest space as you approach or to contest a fireball to move forward against a zoner, but it doesn't really fill that role very well (or better than sweep into H Khat/Sekhmet does anyway). Giving the couch a hit of projectile durability, or maybe a hit of armor or something, could make it fill that role better. As it is now, there's not really much point in throwing it out in neutral against Beo or whoever because the opponent can just break the couch and hit you at the same time (or at least iirc that's how it works)- giving it a hit of armor would make it a good tool for moving in. Whether a tool like that should exist on a character who's already built to excel at midrange and already has options like the aforementioned sweep, Khat, and Sekhmet is a different question, though.

I think FullbleeD's item idea is neat, but I don't know if she needs to have something like that when she already has so much else, as cool as giving her Dudley's rose toss taunt would be. :(

All in all, Eliza's really cool, and I care more that she's cool than whether or not she's good, so I really can't complain.

 

[Golbat]

MK Spiral vacuum blood drops and opponents on hit

Big on this one for a start, SG's great from a 6 button game standpoint, but there's more than a few meh specials where the button differences aren't significant enough.

 

[Sinclair]

Yes yes yes to LK Spiral having better frame advantage, I'd give my left arm for that. Likewise to making s.LP or s.MK suction or something to keep small light characters from falling out of combos, I would love that. I don't necessarily agree with

So this will all need to be filtered through the lens of "this comes from someone who hasn't actively practiced Skullgirls or *any* fighting game since the pandemic started and is a complete scrub that plays single player games now" but I also agree that couch really doesn't have much of a use. It feels like the game wants you to use it to contest space as you approach or to contest a fireball to move forward against a zoner, but it doesn't really fill that role very well (or better than sweep into H Khat/Sekhmet does anyway). Giving the couch a hit of projectile durability, or maybe a hit of armor or something, could make it fill that role better. As it is now, there's not really much point in throwing it out in neutral against Beo or whoever because the opponent can just break the couch and hit you at the same time (or at least iirc that's how it works)- giving it a hit of armor would make it a good tool for moving in. Whether a tool like that should exist on a character who's already built to excel at midrange and already has options like the aforementioned sweep, Khat, and Sekhmet is a different question, though.

I think FullbleeD's item idea is neat, but I don't know if she needs to have something like that when she already has so much else, as cool as giving her Dudley's rose toss taunt would be. :(

All in all, Eliza's really cool, and I care more that she's cool than whether or not she's good, so I really can't complain.

Throne is good in matchups vs peacock where you do 2hk into throne cancel. The problem though is that the elements from throne do not help you with shutting down & getting closer to your opponent. Its an anti-zoning tool that has (probably) stayed weak because balancing Eliza is really hard. How do we balance throne without it becoming some nuclear bomb? Throne IS usefull and I DO use it versus peacock and other zoners (robo and parasoul). I myself dont know how to improve throne. What if we increased the blockstun on throne to make approach easier? Or how about we make it multihit? Maybe turn the hit into a KD they can't tech out/ Again, throne is meant to be the anti zoning tool, shutting down characters like peacock from doing their zoning pattern. It's a good tool, but purpously weak because it would be too good. Think of it like a mini brass.

 

[alexpi]

Let her do 2 servant summons at a time like peacock's bombs, but to balance her out she should also deal 2000 damage with all heavies

 

[Nuuance]

(Re-Edited 2.0)
cool seeing your take on things. Creativity is sick, pretty much agree w/everyone on normals/specials. Throne needs work on it’s normal effect for sure...but Overall, this comes to mind thinking on kinda lacklustre/unsafe specials & supers while having something to do with the blood apart from just picking it back up...because it's moreso a formality at this point than a gameplay choice to make. It's not to say she's bad just a little dry imho

BLOOD JARS: ▉ ▉ ▉ ▉ Bite opponents to fill sekhs 4 canopic jars shown in the anchor, enhancing specials & supers at the cost of recovered health. ‘Keep young & beautiful!’

Sweeping, throwing, super on sekh netting a knockdown breaks a jar & anchor visually reflects amount of held jars when sekh’s out. reuses canopic jar assets under her portrait as resource visual.

Spoiler: Enchanced Jars - Specials & Supers

Since you’re spending meter+health for limited use moves they should be fairly substantial. Each bite gives 2 jars for 1 bar.
Enhanced Specials: Love the random item idea for throne. Maybe multihit like mentioned for better advantage/recovery too shielding against projectiles. can reuse match open 'dais’ asset walking a little slower than throne actually. sewer grab could be faster & do a decent damage toss, saving otg with less scaling. horace not too sure yet. Maybe tracks opponent up to s.hp distance & fairly positive, leaving horace in the way, standing there to knock down after (like happy chaos clone).

Enhanced Supers: nekhbet might get ground bounce combo extension or keep no-hitstop, but add armour + tracking. LoS, I’d love if enhanced, a last extra hit actually takes it back to the ground for normal dhcs and a bit more damage. (qcf k+p for specials & just hold buttons on super for enhanced versions)

Level 5: thats a fun thought. perhaps fills empty jars, but instead they dont sacrifice health for allll that meter :)

Spoiler: QoLs for normals

Excluding the blood idea, Peacocks bomb brigade, paras egrets, robos drones, fukuas shadows, and even fortunes head allow approach using normal assist-style specials. Eliza's shouldnt be any different, not negative -- with a purposefully slow character no less. Normals (in general): s.hp/s.hk having more startup than most specials without much reward feel should be addressed being a midrange character. Boat as an approach option being faster also comes to mind. Not sure how others feel, but j.hp/j.hk id like to see some sort of more beneficial hurtbox change. Lastly Spiral i feel should be be positive enough to make s.lk after a feasible option & like the suggestion of M-strength as an even pushback option vacuuming blood.

 

[FXFGamer]

I'm coming in a bit late to the party but I do hope I can give a perspective of my own into the mix.


First and foremost I agree with the proposed changes for s.LPx3 as well as the xx.H Osiris Spiral, xx.Lady of Slaughter string when playing against light characters, specially the two new rat-sized additions with the names of Annie and Umbrella.

Additionally, xx.M Osiris Spiral has no use being this bad. It definitely needs something to spruce itself up, be it the cohesion with picking up blood or maybe staggering the opponent for more interesting set-play. I don't have my hopes high for any changes on this move though, since Fillia's xx.L/M Updo versions barely see any real play either yet there aren't any plans on making them any more distinctive.

Given how prevalent Push Block Guard Cancelling is, I don't see many instances where xx.L Osiris Spiral, a 21 frames long, two hit move, wouldn't be properly Push Blocked Guard Cancelled to punish an over-extension. Buffing it into a plus on defense wouldn't make much of a difference, specially when it already currently is just -2 on block. Personally I'd rather see her buff budget go towards something more impactful in her gameplay.

As for s.HK, I do agree it's a bit sluggish. Having a few frames less of start-up would be wonderful and solidify it as a rewarding, although risky anti-air option. Personally I'd love to have the first hit of it become jump cancellable, as it would allow for more interesting paths on hit and on block, as well as reset options.


As it stands, Eliza only has access to xx.L/M/H Upper Khat or xx.Khepri Sun for reversal options. The first implies the usage of Sehkmet for a proper conversion, therefore also HP and OTG, and the second consumes meter and OTG. As such, it feels demoralising to use them. Eliza is always at a loss when compared to the entirety of the cast in this situation even though the proper defense mechanisms were being applied. Not to mention the 3 levels of meter requirement for the blockbuster reversal.


My major issues with Eliza stem from Sehkmet. It's extremely unsafe for no real benefit. Any intermediate player who takes a deep breath and focuses instead of mashing confirmation strings can mostly easily block all of Sehkmet's moves and get a punishment off. Even with the introduction of xx.Sehkmet Rebound, that was added as the means to adress this lack of safety, I often get caught in the middle of it by certain sweeps (looking at you Big Band) or upon landing.
Now onto something that really grinds my gears: the fact that universally, everyone gets a free conversion out of using Snapback on Sehkmet. She literally wall bounces back into the point character. Yes, I do agree that Sehkmet should reattach to Eliza and I guess it's only fair that she stays instead of being swapped out, but getting a free combo out of all of that is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. The behaviour should be similar to that seen on using Snapback on a solo character. No one is getting combos out of that one now, are they?


Lastly, for my crazy suggestion: Remove the HP draining mechanic altogether when using Sehkmet. Moves already cost HP to cast, when getting hit by moves damage is still taken nonetheless and getting punished is already damaging enough as is. Having the extra HP loss makes it so Eliza is left extremely low if she uses Sehkmet in any other way except combo fodder. Picking up blood currently forces losing pressure, which means losing advantage for the sake of getting a little bit of HP back (that won't even substantially make up for the loss anyway unless 1 bar is used).


I don't think Eliza needs the introduction of new mechanics, instead she needs polish and a sense of coordination on her current ones so that they can work better when together.

 

[namlay]

Eliza is currently the only character in the game who when level 1 DHC'ed into she can not get a follow up in any situation what so ever. She also has the added problem of her DHC LOS leaving the opponent very high in the air making it hard for follow up DHCs unless canceled early and losing a good bit of damage. I personally feel like this alone is hurting Eliza more then anything. It's so hard to fit this character on to teams because you lose the ability to fluidly switch through characters by using meter. I believe a good solution to this would be to let eliza DHC into Crimson Scourge. I believe this change would fit well because it would give her better team synergy while leaving the character relatively alone. For me it feels like a fundamental part of SG is having some sort of synergy between the characters you pick, but eliza is so limited in the characters she can synergize with currently. This also would have no effect on solo Eliza who is very strong atm.

The only other change I would like to see is faster projectile armor start up on 2HK. There are two characters in the game that when crouching still get hit by H Beam. Eliza and Band. Both are suppose to options to deal with this. Band has parry and Eliza has 2HK. But the start up of the projectile armor on 2HK feels a bit too long. Often times the tool I'm suppose to use to beat projectiles flat out gets beat by projectiles. Its very noticeable in the peacock match up. Even if the sweep connects its not like Eliza gets a combo afterwards so its really just used to try and close the distance.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

I've been thinking about the changes I suggested, and the Throne of Isis idea is way too much of a rework, so I've decided on something easier and better to implement.

Throne of Isis always staggers on hit, and Eliza is able to move a few frames after summoning the move. Throne of Isis is without hyperbole probably the worst special move, or one of the worst in the entire game. It serves no purpose. It is not fast enough to deal with zoning, you can just upback to deal with (Eliza loses to upback in general) and has no purpose in any other matchup other than timing a safejump (of which there are a bunch of better options). Even if Eliza could just do SOMETHING else off of blocked 5hk or 5hp that needs to be respected for half a second, this would help her in neutral a ton.

Other than that:

faster startup on 5hp/5hk
Faster projectile armor start up on 2hk
DHC into Crimson Scourge
Give her back her level 5 (lock it behind it her taunt if you have to)
Access to LOS in Sehkmet form after taunt (kind of silly she lost this when Crimson Scourge is far and away a better super anyway). I'd say she should have this all the time, but some may believe that is too good.
Player can hold HP after Lady of Slaughter to instantly return to body
Final hit of LOS wallsplats if player is close to corner for better DHC synergy

Realistic, not too strong changes to bring her up to line with the rest of the cast

 

[Nuuance]

faster s.hk for faster recovery to do oki would be great seeing as double, bella, band, etc have sliding knockdowns giving them a quite large time to approach the opponent & setup...and just being faster in general. throne really should have less recovery a well. I personally think theres 1 more factor missing from her blood mechanic in regards to what can be done with the drops themselves (umbrella already has puddles/environmental damage so thats out), but i guess we'll wait & see.

 

[NipNip]

Throne of Isis (also known as "THE BOYS") is probably one of the weirdest moves in the game because of how niche it is.

What about making it an armor breaking sweep?

This could make it a useful assist or mixup. would put great pressure on the characters that heavily use armored moves, giving Eliza a much needed nudge up the tier list for matchup advantage alone.

It’s also a subtle tune that doesn’t drastically change her kit. Not that it’s a “bad idea” to make a drastic changes, I think the recently added blood drop mechanic is awesome.

I feel that Eliza buffs are needed, and also I feel that [Besides Sekhmet] the other characters do everything she does but better. However, I think Butchers Blade as an assist needs to be addressed but I don’t know how. This move gives all the unstoppable forces immovable objects. Granted, it can be dealt with by using snap or sweeps; I feel burning a bar of meter just to get rid of an assist feels awful, and it’s near impossible to sweep it without being counter hit. A whole lot of reward with little risk.

The amount of sheer lock down in this assist is nuts. Also if you push block it without also push blocking the point character it feels like forfeiting one of your characters. Obviously, of course, mistakes should be punished; this game is for killing. But that feels like a very big price to pay for a minor mistake.
Idk, if I’m just being a little bitch about it let me know.

thoughts?

-NipNip

 

[Nuuance]

What about making it an armor breaking sweep?

This could make it a useful assist or mixup. would put great pressure on the characters that heavily use armored moves, giving Eliza a much needed nudge up the tier list for matchup advantage alone.

It’s also a subtle tune that doesn’t drastically change her kit. Not that it’s a “bad idea” to make a drastic changes, I think the recently added blood drop mechanic is awesome.

I feel that Eliza buffs are needed, and also I feel that [Besides Sekhmet] the other characters do everything she does but better. However, I think Butchers Blade as an assist needs to be addressed but I don’t know how. This move gives all the unstoppable forces immovable objects. Granted, it can be dealt with by using snap or sweeps; I feel burning a bar of meter just to get rid of an assist feels awful, and it’s near impossible to sweep it without being counter hit. A whole lot of reward with little risk.

The amount of sheer lock down in this assist is nuts. Also if you push block it without also push blocking the point character it feels like forfeiting one of your characters. Obviously, of course, mistakes should be punished; this game is for killing. But that feels like a very big price to pay for a minor mistake.
Idk, if I’m just being a little bitch about it let me know.

thoughts?

-NipNip

i think itd be different if there was no health penalty, she wasn't out so long, or wasn't easy to absolute guard against being a mid (for butchers). But honestly if anything i feel it *shouldnt* be penalized as much. Not officially putting forward as a suggestion, but im not kidding when i say more than half the time eliza's bleeding out near quarter or half health in the background from people bullying her assist. If I had a penny for how many times people hit her while taunting...it's not fun. And that's excluding imperfect/botched assist calls. Personally i think it's fine. It's fine to have strong assists & she definitely pays for it. Ask Namlay how he ate off my absentminded assist calls fall sgcs lol. Coming from someone who used to use H Spiral/Horace all the time.

armor breaking sweep for throne seems a bit light imo. atm eliza deals with armour fine using sekh w/health penalty for something to counter armoured/hairy moves. Even as an assist it's slow. And point...she's basically stuck in place. Giving it the same recovery as bikes or a peacock George call is the only thing that keeps coming to mind. same for horace. Giving legitimate good recovery/advantage -- seems thats whats been echoed generally. Coming in reverse from far end (like v-13 sickle in blazblue) comes to mind, but then we're back where we started being stuck in place. Although that'd still be better than now in terms of anti-zoning.

 

[Sinclair]

What about making it an armor breaking sweep?

This could make it a useful assist or mixup. would put great pressure on the characters that heavily use armored moves, giving Eliza a much needed nudge up the tier list for matchup advantage alone.

It’s also a subtle tune that doesn’t drastically change her kit. Not that it’s a “bad idea” to make a drastic changes, I think the recently added blood drop mechanic is awesome.

I feel that Eliza buffs are needed, and also I feel that [Besides Sekhmet] the other characters do everything she does but better. However, I think Butchers Blade as an assist needs to be addressed but I don’t know how. This move gives all the unstoppable forces immovable objects. Granted, it can be dealt with by using snap or sweeps; I feel burning a bar of meter just to get rid of an assist feels awful, and it’s near impossible to sweep it without being counter hit. A whole lot of reward with little risk.

The amount of sheer lock down in this assist is nuts. Also if you push block it without also push blocking the point character it feels like forfeiting one of your characters. Obviously, of course, mistakes should be punished; this game is for killing. But that feels like a very big price to pay for a minor mistake.
Idk, if I’m just being a little bitch about it let me know.

thoughts?

-NipNip

Eliza already has everything to deal with armor. She has a long distance DP that she can JC block/jump from when it touches armor, albus and butchers.
There is really no reason to buff eliza, she is as good as she is. QoLs would be great.

 

[Nuuance]

(Re-Edited 2.0)
cool seeing your take on things. Creativity is sick, pretty much agree w/everyone on normals/specials. Throne needs work on it’s normal effect for sure...but Overall, this comes to mind thinking on kinda lacklustre/unsafe specials & supers while having something to do with the blood apart from just picking it back up...because it's moreso a formality at this point than a gameplay choice to make. It's not to say she's bad just a little dry imho

BLOOD JARS: ▉▉▉▉ Bite opponents to fill sekhs jars, enhancing specials & supers at the cost of recovered health. ‘Keep young & beautiful!’

Sweeping sekh breaks a jar & anchor visually reflects amount of jars had when sekh’s out. reuses canopic jar assets under her portrait as well.

Excluding the blood idea, Peacocks bomb brigade, paras egrets, robos drones, fukuas shadows, and even fortunes head allow approach using normal assist-style specials. Eliza's shouldnt be any different, not negative -- with a purposefully slow character no less. Normals (in general): s.hp/s.hk having more startup than most specials without much reward feel should be addressed being a midrange character. Boat as an approach option being faster also comes to mind. Not sure how others feel, but j.hp/j.hk id like to see some sort of more beneficial hurtbox change. Lastly Spiral i feel should be be positive enough to make s.lk after a feasible option & like the suggestion of M-strength as an even pushback option vacuuming blood.

Spoiler: Specials & Supers

Since you’re spending meter+health for limited use moves they should be fairly substantial. Each bite gives 2 jars.
Enhanced Specials: Love the random item idea for throne. Maybe multihit like mentioned for better advantage/recovery too shielding against projectiles. can reuse match open 'dais’ asset walking a little slower than throne actually. sewer grab could be faster & do a decent damage toss, saving otg with less scaling. horace not too sure yet. Maybe tracks opponent up to s.hp distance & fairly positive, leaving horace in the way, standing there to knock down after (like happy chaos clone).

Enhanced Supers: nekhbet might get ground bounce combo extension or keep no-hitstop, but add armour + tracking. who knows, sure others would have some ideas. LoS, I’d love if enhanced, a last extra hit actually takes it back to the ground for normal dhcs and a bit more damage. (qcf k+p for specials & just hold buttons on super for enhanced versions)

Level 5: thats a fun thought. perhaps fills empty jars with something semi-interesting for using all that meter :)

think people made their point on eliza in beta thread so dont wanna derail, instead re-edited previous post w/current thoughts. Sidenote, to Sinclair, everyone has made it to top 8 and already beo/robo have gotten sweeping changes. Doesnt mean characters dont need improvements. Anyways the post is more a mashup of thoughts so take it for what you will, i just appreciate the look to whoever's inclined. Whether about Annie, Eliza or anyone, riffing off sage, fine, isnt the bar sg set to get to where it is in terms of character development & believe in maintaining that. It's been really cool seeing others ideas for additions/changes so hopefully we see more. as well as an actual blood mechanic (accompanying images in OP)

edit: also it's still easy to miss c.mk on 2nd hit in weird situations like band otgs or other tip-of-the-tongue confirms & hope that gets tightened up as well as s.lp vacuuming. Ohh & lastly s.hk actual knockdown...been a gripe for a while on how long recovery is after and lack of time to setup oki. band, bella & double for example have ample amount of time to rock up to the opponent while down & setup the mix. eliza has a much tighter window & depending on the link to s.hk, you might not be able to fully reach the opponent. hope to see that more useable in the future.

sidenote: taunt for sekh to gain LoH again would be dope

retroactive edit in response to next post from bellafeng to avoid more: pretty much the same thing. she's getting better. but even past that politely disagree especially after a match i had with a fortune, robo, peacock team. i rarely chalk things up to the inability of a character themselves to succeed or figure out a puzzle...we play to show that stuff doesnt matter mostly. but it's another circle of hell trying to deal with projectiles like that from afar even with meter for her. Boat needs help. her specials all being negative need help. i dont think it's at all a bad thing to tune them up considering theyve been on the chopping block for some time.

 

[BellaFeng4Eternity]

There is really no reason to buff eliza, she is as good as she is. QoLs would be great.

I second this. QoL improvements or changes would be great for Eliza right now.

 

[Triviality]

idk if this is quality of life, but I play eliza casually and honestly, shes a character built upon flavor rather than mechanical ingenuity, what i mean by this is like

She has the most frames of unique animation and the coolest supers, but what those supers actually do are wierd.

-She's the only character in the game that cannot convert off of her STANDARD level 1 supers. (Like holy shit the fact no one brings this up as much is astonishing. Nekh bite is over spammed now because of how much utility that it has. Why do Lady of Slaughter or NekhBreaker other than to finish a combo? Not to mention clunky synergy among the supers and its just eh

-Let the last hit of LOS have hitstop and wallsplat
-or let Nekhbet have moonbounce properties similar to det mode robo magnet dunk

Her tools to force trades in scrambles are bad, she has terrible blockstrings and frame data, where entire extended hurtboxes appear frames before the actual hitboxes appear, like, what?

Her size means she gets fuzzied, and things like robo hbeam assist she has to hold even if crouching.

C.HK is soooo slow, you have time to throw two projectiles as peacock, and then REACT to it

Chair special is wonky, can be hit-removed, and doesnt even cause true bounce. You cant use it in blockstring changes because it loses to like upback which is so common its unreal, same with divekick bird, you get upback land cancelled CH punished

Weight of Anubis is like, giant step but bad, would be cool if albus just kinda held the person where they we're instead of throwing them at all

anyway you all shouldn't settle for Eliza as a character that's "Fine"

This game is not filled with "fine" characters, we have unbelievably powerful characters that are all equally volatile, Eliza needs that kind of power herself to stand out

 

[missingno]

-She's the only character in the game that cannot convert off of her STANDARD level 1 supers. (Like holy shit the fact no one brings this up as much is astonishing. Nekh bite is over spammed now because of how much utility that it has. Why do Lady of Slaughter or NekhBreaker other than to finish a combo? Not to mention clunky synergy among the supers and its just eh

Questioning what you define as 'standard' here. I guess you mean Bite doesn't count because she can only do it from Sekhmet rather than anywhere, but then I would say there are a few characters that also have their own catches for converting off a level 1, I don't think this is a unique weakness to Eliza. Val and PW can only do it from their air supers, not grounded ones. Band can only get a full conversion off grounded SSJ with a taunt or Pinion assist. Robo can convert off Magnet, but only at the cost of not actually hitting with it. Are those conditions more 'standard' than Bite?

 

[Triviality]

Questioning what you define as 'standard' here. I guess you mean Bite doesn't count because she can only do it from Sekhmet rather than anywhere, but then I would say there are a few characters that also have their own catches for converting off a level 1, I don't think this is a unique weakness to Eliza. Val and PW can only do it from their air supers, not grounded ones. Band can only get a full conversion off grounded SSJ with a taunt or Pinion assist. Robo can convert off Magnet, but only at the cost of not actually hitting with it. Are those conditions more 'standard' than Bite?

Valentine who is built for aerial mobility has an air super she can convert off of, She can also use assists to convert from Scalpels if she built for it, and her Kick super is standard enough that it does a damage cash out without leaving totally awkward positions for the opponent

Painwheel, another character built for the air, has a conversion super in the form of her air super, it kinda makes sense for the flight character, and it fits into her gameplan to be in the air. It's the same concept for both her and val to have level 1 air supers that complement the players skill to convert off of them consistently

Band has many niche situations where he converts off of SSJ. There are many complementary and good assists that let him convert off of SSJ. Bands who know how to properly move with tymphany get tauntless conversion. he can use taunt to convert off of his level 1's. They also do so much MORE damage in general when compared to eliza.

Robo can convert off of her supers with heads and positioning, they also are so damage loaded and her undizzy management is flawless to the point shes influential in certain teambuilding framework, its probably the reason she's on sonicfox's current team. Not only this, but magnet can be used for conversions without using the actual hit


All of them have coherent supers that fit into their game plan. They synergize well with the rest of the cast, and are complemented by the rest of the cast. Tell me, what assist lets Eliza convert off Either her aerial or grounded supers. Hard knockdown doesn't make sense for a character with 0 setplay properties, and the damage cash out would be nice from LOS if the awkward position it leaves the opponent in wasn't just that, awkward.

Consider also the context that Eliza was in this state for half a decade without Sekhmet Bite, and how sekhmet bite was nerfed because it was an actual good utility super

 

[iControl]

What if we gave Sekhmet Moroha mode? (+R ,A.B.A) It could also only be accessed after using Eliza's taunt and it cost two bars or something. She would be able to recover all the health loss from Sekhmet and get access to new specials like a Big Dp, a fireball, maybe even air dash. I know its a very wild idea but, I think it would be super interesting to make Sekhmet look "less boring" while giving Sekhmet more tools for neutral and a practical use for Eliza's taunt.

 

[Sinclair]

idk if this is quality of life, but I play eliza casually and honestly, shes a character built upon flavor rather than mechanical ingenuity, what i mean by this is like

She has the most frames of unique animation and the coolest supers, but what those supers actually do are wierd.

-She's the only character in the game that cannot convert off of her STANDARD level 1 supers. (Like holy shit the fact no one brings this up as much is astonishing. Nekh bite is over spammed now because of how much utility that it has. Why do Lady of Slaughter or NekhBreaker other than to finish a combo? Not to mention clunky synergy among the supers and its just eh

-Let the last hit of LOS have hitstop and wallsplat
-or let Nekhbet have moonbounce properties similar to det mode robo magnet dunk

Her tools to force trades in scrambles are bad, she has terrible blockstrings and frame data, where entire extended hurtboxes appear frames before the actual hitboxes appear, like, what?

Her size means she gets fuzzied, and things like robo hbeam assist she has to hold even if crouching.

C.HK is soooo slow, you have time to throw two projectiles as peacock, and then REACT to it

Chair special is wonky, can be hit-removed, and doesnt even cause true bounce. You cant use it in blockstring changes because it loses to like upback which is so common its unreal, same with divekick bird, you get upback land cancelled CH punished

Weight of Anubis is like, giant step but bad, would be cool if albus just kinda held the person where they we're instead of throwing them at all

anyway you all shouldn't settle for Eliza as a character that's "Fine"

This game is not filled with "fine" characters, we have unbelievably powerful characters that are all equally volatile, Eliza needs that kind of power herself to stand out

wow ive literally been saying this shit for years :-) but i do think that she's more than so "fine" in a sense where she has everything she needs (kind of bloated with moves) but has to struggle a bit harder than others
i think the changes you spoke about (that i can agree with, because some of these things ive asked for before) are more of Qols to improve her gameplay than blatand buffs..eliza is a character in limbo and these changes would imo make it easier to plan around things
same brain

 

[KuroOneHalf]

I've seen others mention to buff cMK so it doesn't uncombo, and I'd like to +1 it. Pls. ;w;

 

[Sinclair]

I've seen others mention to buff cMK so it doesn't uncombo, and I'd like to +1 it. Pls. ;w;

microdash cmk wouldve not made it uncombo

 

[KuroOneHalf]

microdash cmk wouldve not made it uncombo

I know there were other options. The point is it shouldn't be a problem you work around. There's no good reason this should be able to uncombo like this. The first hit landed, just give it to the player. Just a little bit of QOL love.

 

[CaioLugon]

I've seen others mention to buff cMK so it doesn't uncombo, and I'd like to +1 it. Pls. ;w;

looks like the first hit connected on a pretty extended hurtbox here, which is why the second whiffed. I don't think i've seen cmk uncombo like that in a regular situation

 

[KuroOneHalf]

looks like the first hit connected on a pretty extended hurtbox here, which is why the second whiffed. I don't think i've seen cmk uncombo like that in a regular situation

I'm not sure what the VOD is now, but I'm pretty sure a few weeks ago when Dekillsage was talking character tiers and problems that should be fixed, that this was brought up, and someone had a clip from a match where it happened. So I think this is a somewhat known issue.

I believe the suggested fix is it should just magnet the opponent toward you a little.

 

[KuroOneHalf]

Happened again. Took a clip so it doesn't get deleted so fast. https://clips.twitch.tv/CourageousWonderfulDonutSmoocherZ-vweuoE_dkprlqRu2

I don't want to spam the thread so that's the last example I'll post about this.

edit: Actually, it happened twice that tournament. This one is maybe a bit different interaction, but yet another case of cMK uncomboing after the first hit. This time was during a double snap I did against Squig. https://clips.twitch.tv/LaconicMistyKoalaMau5-N_LRtK3kACc6Dltb

Please, can we get a fix?

 

[Triviality]

Happened again. Took a clip so it doesn't get deleted so fast. https://clips.twitch.tv/CourageousWonderfulDonutSmoocherZ-vweuoE_dkprlqRu2

I don't want to spam the thread so that's the last example I'll post about this.

edit: Actually, it happened twice that tournament. This one is maybe a bit different interaction, but yet another case of cMK uncomboing after the first hit. This time was during a double snap I did against Squig. https://clips.twitch.tv/LaconicMistyKoalaMau5-N_LRtK3kACc6Dltb

Please, can we get a fix?

Clip 1. didn't need to c.lk but yeah that sucks that THAT happens

Clip 2. Nah fam work on your timing that double snap is free, shouldnt have jabbed squig when she was that high

These clips suck because its the most "Yeah I agree with you" her first hit should have some sort of a pull in or vacuum but also both clips were preventable

 

[KuroOneHalf]

Clip 2. Nah fam work on your timing that double snap is free, shouldnt have jabbed squig when she was that high

These clips suck because its the most "Yeah I agree with you" her first hit should have some sort of a pull in or vacuum but also both clips were preventable

Apparently not that free. I would get it if cMK's first hit hadn't connected, but it did. There's no advantage to it being able to drop in the middle of the multi hit. It's only detracting from the game. Why would you want to keep it?

Yes, it's preventable. That's why it's a quality-of-life issue. You don't want the player to have to work around dumb stuff. You want them to focus on actual meaningful gameplay.

 

[Triviality]

Apparently not that free. I would get it if cMK's first hit hadn't connected, but it did. There's no advantage to it being able to drop in the middle of the multi hit. It's only detracting from the game. Why would you want to keep it?

Yes, it's preventable. That's why it's a quality-of-life issue. You don't want the player to have to work around dumb stuff. You want them to focus on actual meaningful gameplay.

This is a specific instance that blurs the line between actual quality of life, and actual awareness that the player had. Squigly was way too high for the uncombo loops when they threw out that fourth s.lp. The eliza would have killed if their timing was better,

I will give you that c.MK should be changed, but you cant use examples like this otherwise the argument falls apart and for no ones benefit no one will THINK the move needs to be changed