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The Less Bad Road to Becoming Less Bad

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Camail

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Ok so I'm starting this because I'm ass and I also want to make a place to put fortune and val shit that I care about.

So the way I'll approach this initially is to list off tools I think look good and when to use them. The list is an eternal WIP and will be pretty vacant right now cuz I'm not at home to figure it out.

Valetine:
AD j.mp- my current use of this move is really boring, Need to get MU related angles and pressure set ups.
Backdash/airbackdash xx doublejump- this is a cool movement option that seems pretty defensive, would be useful for making a2a a bit safer. Also you look cool flipping around doing ninja stuff.
Deadly cross- I love this move so much, though I'm afraid it is harming the tempo a val should bring to the match. Really need to remember to use it against Parasoul...
cr.lp- I see people using it as a close range panic button, need to fgure out how legitimate that is. Otherwise its a decent tick throw.
st.hk- Man I dunno, this move seems annoying to space properly.
j.lk- Her bnb cross under that is so well known it's only use against good players is as a fake cross under. I need to relearn my set ups and actually use them.
j.hk- All I know is that its her a2a, really have no idea when to use it in particular situations, it seems like a good thing to make a priority to learn.

Fortune:
Zoom Nom: Don't even get me started on how shit my headless is. I really need to figure out how to use this properly.
AD- My movement with fortune is pretty terrible, this is more of a bad habit than anyhing else. I probably need to pay more attention to when using my AD is worthwhile.
Resets- Yea I think its more just lack of experience, I just need to play more and my resets will come more comfortably.
Axe kick- Fuck this move.
j.lk- Wow I really need to learn better ways to get into this moves golden range, it's so damn good. Right now all I have is dumb aggression.

To be continued. Here is something to be said for every move, but I'll do that later.
 
Camail said:
Backdash/airbackdash xx doublejump ... you look cool flipping around doing ninja stuff.

Not gonna lie, the salty part of me that goes live when I die to Valentines is always saying "wow, such ninja, flips, very patient, much pivot aggression, wow".

j.lk- Her bnb cross under that is so well known it's only use against good players is as a fake cross under.

In some matchups could you do it and use it as a setup for something else? Assuming they're not mashing air supers, there's few characters that actually get to say something about it on the way down from the j.LK reset, so they'll at least be in a block string. Could be a good time for another crossup or low/throw if your assist is ready.

Like half the time Agent J bops me with a crossup, it isn't a raw crossup, it's something he does after positioning/scaring me with a j.LK reset attempt, or the weird one where Val j.MP's through you and your st.LP jabs switch sides a few times.

j.hk- All I know is that its her a2a, really have no idea when to use it in particular situations, it seems like a good thing to make a priority to learn.

The most subtle use I've seen for it is duck using the active hitbox on the cadaver's leg from a low point in a jump while calling an assist. All in all he attacks from receded hurtbox, lockdown/hit, airdash back in with j.MP > Fastfall or j.HP if he wants. I cry evrytiem.
 
A vast majority of my neutral game comments are going to be with fiber upper assist in mind, it covers different areas than duck's assists so I'm going to have to figure out the detail in a slightly different way. The hardest part of learning from Duckator is figuring out what I can appropriate from his play style to mine, given the fact that he has different assists and is way more intimidating.

But yea I have recently been making the mistake of using j.lk way too high off the ground. I really should be making use of val's cross ups more often. Though to an extent that requires my opponent to not up back. Admittedly my main focus is learning neutral game right now because its way harder to learn than combos. Once I figure out how to properly approach I think the git-guddening will commence.
 
Don't play fortune, but here's some added notes on the normals you listed:


-AD j.mp: good to get in with after a whiffed j.hk. Don't rely on it too much since it can get stuffed easy and air grabbed.
-Backdash xx air dash j.hp is the closest thing Val has as an instant overhead. Can also cross up certain characters.
-Dead cross: on block or hit can be followed with an air dash or jump for continued pressure.
-cr.lp: a 6 frame jab that can stuff out c.lks. Personal experience playing against Hops.
-j.lk: also a good button for when the opponent is right under you. Good for tick throws too.
-j.hk: I jump back with this move when I need space since it creates a wall. I also just throw it out too much....
 
I've noticed that duck uses backdash AD j.lk in close quarters, I'd think that or j.mp is better than j.hp in very close quarters. Then I'd think that j.lk is better because it will lead to quick jump-in pressure that is less easily pushblocked than j.mp and also does less hits if it connects, also the fastest start up of the three.

There is also the matter of jump j.mk, AD, j.mk xx deadly cross which is something that I use often but I'm beginning to grow tired of. Though I think the biggest problem is that my team doesn't have a lockdown assist that makes this kind of approach viable/consistent. Over the coming days I'm doing to test back dash doublejump forward airdash and plain old dash jumping as possible approaches. I'm afraid that the BDDJFAD (for short) is a bit too low to the ground and will get hit by a lot of options, though I think it can go over hornet bomber so that's really nice.
 
I plan on experimenting with lk fiber upper as a jump in from mid screen because its super fast and goes farther than dash jump. Night be good against filia because iadjhp isn't as far reaching, but I don't know what she likes to so at that range other than jump at me to get close enough to j.hp. Its not viable against peacock, but it might be ok against parasoul if she isn't trying to cock block me with j.hp yet.
 
lk fiber is a prime reset point in any fortune combo, perfect height for fast falls and they almost always recover in the air. Now I just need to drill her grab combo to make this a useful reset option. There's a crazy crossunder with s.hk that I need to record.

Also, @Mike_Z , in this head on s.hk cross under the move starts up on one side, and during the move it moves forward underneath the opponent and pushes fortune to the opposite side, but the directional inputs to cancel the s.hk into a special or super still work as if you were on the original side. I dunno if this is a bug you care to fix. It's honestly not a big deal for me because its part of a set up so i know it's coming, but yea it's a thing. The best way to test this is to do a lk fiber j.lk j.mk fast fall, dash, s.hk

I tested lk fiber as a movement option and to some extent its ok, but it seems to be at a range where the opponent its ready for it and it is pretty easy for most characters to safely whiff moves at the range to try and catch it. It puts them in a low risk high reward situation. I think I'm only gonna use it headless.
 
In the middle of a move, motions for followups/cancels would always be done as if you are facing the way you're facing, rather than relative to what side you're on.
At least, that's the way it is in every game I know of...if you can find me a counterexample I'd be interested.
 
Ok so I've been annoyed by people pushblocking so I've been experimenting with with a few different val approaches, I'm sick of j.hp unless it's a cross up. IAD j.mp (1/2), j.hp is nice, so is j.lk (1/2), j.hp. Hopefully they blow up pushblock and I can hit with a low or use it as a tick grab. I haven't really thought about fortune much, but j.lk, j.mk seems pretty standard and if I want I can fast fall in the j.mk for some dirty shit. Val might even be able to use j.mk in a similar fashion (with the addition of a j.hk that will most like be cancelled by landing recovery before the second hit comes out). I'll have time to test this stuff after mid terms. It's especially potent for val because its easier to set this pressure up with her after a reset with a simple backdash, airdash.
 
Camail said:
Val might even be able to use j.mk in a similar fashion (with the addition of a j.hk that will most like be cancelled by landing recovery before the second hit comes out). I'll have time to test this stuff after mid terms. It's especially potent for val because its easier to set this pressure up with her after a reset with a simple backdash, airdash.

It works and it is awesome, though you'll want to use j.HP instead of j.HK for the cancel. From here you can do run unders depending on the weight, dash back > adc > j.HP (which can also cross up depending on character), low/throw, or my fav mindfuck (that I haven't practiced enough) run under > dash back > adc > j.HP. I've even had it do that thing where val does a low and she's facing away, but still connects.

I think we talked about this on steam tho.
 
@Choose Goose I'm not talking about fast fall in general, I'm talking about extending/shortening blockstrings to blow up pushblocks when they are on the ground.
 
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I've been meaning to repurpose some of the Double j.MK stuff for Val's j.MK for a while now.

  • one hit, fastfall with j.HP and c.LK/throw
  • both hits so the second (high) hits, then chain j.HK and land to convert.
  • both hits, j.HK, and if they're still blocking ADC > j.MP for aggression + lockdown assist to sustain aggression for as long as you don't expect a reversal.
  • both hits, j.HK, and if they're still blocking ADC > crossup j.HP/j.LK. This one is probably better on shorties like PW and Peacock since their reversals have very horizontal/shitty hitboxes.
I still haven't had time to put in the lab work to confirm that the second hit of Val's j.MK is high, but I know the first two work (and I use it) with Double's j.MK. I'd be very surprised if Double's version was high, high and Val's wasn't.
 
second hit is still high if you are in the air, which you are going to have to be, so yea.
 
http://www.twitch.tv/duckator/b/511238226?t=2h37m13s

Things I learned playing duck:
Never let a val j.mp blockstring finish, it's not worth it.
Being able to do reversals would really help.
Headless is really good.
Headspike beats air gregor!
Updo>double butt, at least against val/fortune.
Grabs are really good
My fortune cross under works!!!
Low/throw can actually be made to look worse than a 50/50 if you do it right.

More to come as I rewatch.

I need to learn how to use dash more effectively, too much jumping for movement.
I promise I wasn't upbacking every time I got hit by a low, at least half of those were me holding back and not reacting to my character hitting the ground. On that note though, I should probably fix that problem too.
Don't play at 6 AM.
You can alter your jump arc in this game, don't play like they can't.

Man, I need to get more comfortable with PBGC, I'm free to lockdown assists atm.
 
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Wow I really felt the headless nerfs last night. I need to take a break from this game. I think it is actually impossible for me to have good defense in this game. My reaction time is too slow, so why even bother.
 
Wow val's s.hk in neutral is so garbage without hornet bomber. Also people are still getting hit by my val shenanigan resets so if I can just stop dropping combos when playing high level players I might actually get somewhere.

Oh and I need to do fastfall air grab resets way more vs people who up back and play defensively. It's worth the meter when people refuse to respond to the opponent and just use the same flow chart over and over... Not gonna name names.
 
Played in ducks impromptu tourney, my thoughts:

Killed duck's val first game and got rekt by filia because I still don't have much experience with fighting her in neutral. Second game I took the opportunity to experiment with calling fiber while he had corner pressure which just ended in a double snap so yea. I never usually call assists in the corner and now I never will.

Second match was w/e, he was a peacock that didn't have a pattern and I'm val so it was pretty simple. He caught me out of prejump a few times but I was just rushig down hard because I made the read that he couldn't handle it.

Third match was annoying because I treated his val like I was playing duck and gave him way too much respect. All he did was fast fall resets and I kept fucking up the double jump so I got hit a bunch. I feel like if I was on top of my game I should've beaten him. I hate the val mirror its so boring.
 
Started using s.hk more, it's pretty nice. I really need to use ground normals more, but I never learned to use them because everyone who plays this game ignores them.

Also I might start trying air bypass in the corner to mix up where I use my otg burst bait, I still need to put some more work into refining it, gotta nail down a few more options and a good assist call timing before I make an extensive video of it. Roght now if they know the mortuary drop is coming it loses its teeth, but maybe a well timed fiber assist will put them back in block stun. Ideally I want to make any escape cost them frame advantage.
 
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