2nd Round Edit: After more play to solidify an image, I've adjusted thoughts on bubbles/etc, but the rest still stands even moreso. Especially on the level 3 & overstuffed.
First time since early beta commenting on umbrella post-release so bear with me for the lengthy post ^_^''; thoughts in no specific order. 1st & last post on umbrella for now. Mostly touching on 'balance' & intent, then suggestions. Hopefully sparks an idea or two. Oh & generalizations are just that. It doesnt mean every instance, but definitely most. Try to keep that in mind.
Granted, ive only played her a small bit...but played against her a ton against some respectable people (relative to her low frequency). she just seems kind of like...just there. Besides M bubblle, apart from not caring for her longer combos & waiting for my turn for resets I'm unfamiliar with, I dont feel anything against her. There's no real threat anxiety is what I'm saying. Charge moves & her more limited movement doesn't help. For such movement her moves/specials should have more oomph. I admire the ambition behind her but yeah. Tally up individual umbrella comments & some mention slide, another something else...for the most part everyone has something different to say while agreeing on common topics pointing to underwhelming play experience & low play numbers. It's far past the 'good or bad' convo & into something else altogether.
Balance & Motivation:
(from beta thread) I feel this time around we let it rock again whether it’s too powerful or not. Gives more reason to wanna use her on point anyhow!
(also from beta thread) It feels like the devs were really non-committal with Umbrella’s defensive tools because they were afraid of making her overpowered, but that ended up giving her a lot of moves that really only do half of what they feel like they should.
Granted, SF's comment was about Annie, but the tone is the same for this despite requests not wanting to be pushy about it. As for Machi, that addresses almost half the cast. And im about to go offroad here, but in terms of balance I sincerely think theres a big misunderstanding on what it's for & how 'good' is 'too good.' To want to use a character...there has to be something making you get a kick out of using them in the first place giving that dopamine. "Cheating." People *want* to feel like they're cheating whether they say it or not. And that's not a bad thing. And cheating doesnt mean unfair by default. Characters in most fighting games cheat somehow. that's why they're fun.
Primarily wanna point out Eliza s.hp/s.hk as an example. Those 2 moves for her have been discussed so much over maincord/forums and most balked at the idea of shaving a couple frames on it for basically breaking the game making her too good. They changed maybe half a year later & funnily enough nothing has changed in the game itself. Havent heard anything on it since. In neutral they're not used anymore than prior (which was virtually not at all). I said either on 'cord or here I see it going the way of Annie's s.mp getting fixed. Forget literal words I said, but something like "It'll be faster, but it'll still
feel like it's middle of the road & still wont see anymore use outside of combo fodder/conversions. Not good, not bad. just there as it should've been initially." And that's exactly what happened with Annie and Eliza. There will always be one or two standout anecdotes of use maybe a couple have seen, but if we're honest about the bigger picture, it's remained the same about 90% in terms of meta, being generous. Throne as well. Umbrella has been the epitome of pretty much this.
The infinite rulebook on theorycrafting only gets so far. Science is used, but after alls said and done, FGs are an art, not a science. Nor is it a purely zero-sum affair where giving one thing means automatically taking away another. Especially if tools are clunky/largely unused in the first place.
Assorted Suggestions:
Overshoot (which isnt really overshooting) then go from there. Give her a way to eat & bat projectiles to gain meter. IShe already has defensive moves. They just need to be better. Allow 5hp in overstuffed to be projectile invuln f1. Straight up. Current timing is harder than parrying since parrys at least are usually instant -- Startup is 30 frames. thats a lot which is cool, but make it worth using. I didn't like Baiken at all until I tried the parry & felt/heard it. It's just plain satisfying & usually I dont like parrys. But hers makes me come back despite having a hard time with opponents outranging her. I mean that baseball bat sound effect & hitstop is on the money!
I'd bet serious money this netting the same effect. Having armour for certain slower moves as well as 1 hit worth for 5hp/2hp should happen imo. Remember 30f & 18f startup. Robo's is 17.
Just as well, her umbrella float id like to see it work better. I've not seen it at all (personally). Using 5hk on Retina reflector to kick the eyes upward would be great as well seeing its so easy to just jump over it lol. Jumping on the bubble or bubble super...yeah idk what to do with that. Still havent see them more than once either. Allow teammates to interact/splash with the puddles too -- would make bubble assists way better & give sick combo creativity. Also I hate to say it but I think charge motions is getting in the way of predictability/how to respond to her. She just plain cant do certain things/moves unless backing up/standing still and that'd be fine if her other options worked better/had better movement, but she doesnt. 6lp & 6hp messing with charge motions makes it even easier to play against her.
6hp is so cool but you cant cancel it. once you press it, you're automatically committed and for such a movement averse character that should be a better neutral tool rather than just combos or a direct overhead anti-air. Obviously would have a bit of recovery but it makes her far more a threat along with having a much more interesting mind game in charging to max level in neutral. The more it's charged, the more advantage you should get, or at least be safe/-2. For first level with stagger, let her recover faster to capitalize on it.
Lastly, that air grab. The tongue length is something I cant get over. either scale it back or allow it to actually grab that far. Just something accurate to what we see. I'd say the same thing with Annie's ground throw. And slide...it just feels weird, idk what to really say about it. stops far too abruptly for one. Again...i dont even really know where to start, im sure someone else has something better to suggest.
Level 3 & Hunger Duration:
The fact that level 3 only gives you *one* extra pip (if it still does) you probably wont have time to use by finishing a character is largely questionable to me for such a big commitment because the conditions to land it are so incredibly narrow. Especially if you're using meter for retina reflector or other things. If her play is focused around ravenous make this worth it. Also odd how it sends the opponent across screen when she can barely run/slide back up to them. Add 2 pips & remove the finishing prereq. i've seen lvl3 used against me from 2 players, main one being nope.avi. And even so after it's done, ive seen they couldnt really capitalize on ravenous after. Match is almost over...or i mean you just ended the match with it. It doesnt make much sense at all. I wouldnt even mind it also being a hitgrab too for half as much damage & only 1 extra pip. The process of progression of your meter throught the match I'd love to see.
Tbh if you wanna get real interesting, you can let the player decide to add an overstuffed, satiated, or ravenous pip depending on button combination depending on what style
you like best. More choice-based play solving duration...because it really is quite short. Especially if the opponent isnt just letting you grab them left & right or has them getting mixed. Draining half as much in general seems better...can't say how many times i've thought 'damn that sucks' for getting hit. If anything, I dont mind it pausing. If you like any particular mode, unless you're a pro who can combo/grab when you want, staying in a desired mode isnt too doable. it's easier for me to just lame them out. I understand her main way is feeding on the opponent, but i really dont see that realistically with how sensitive the timer is. A chocolate bar/ice cream special like 60f restoring one pip serving a good role here (same time it takes for a vial or squigly charge, standing still). Animation already exists so let it rock in a match.
Overstuffed:
Overall I get It's supposed to be a tradeoff but it needs more. Slower frame data in this game is bigger penalty than people realize. I think the 'performing as intended' thing is a bit bunk rn also seeing that annie was
designed to be an install character and effectively install's been dead for a long time. There's always an argument for being usable for nearly anything, but do people
*want* to use it? It's what I see when i see Machi's comment. Is it worth using over something else? Does it
feel good? Is it
worth the risk over something else? Actual original designs have changed a fair amount for half the cast. It'd be different if a bunch of people were playing her. That alone speaks volumes. I think most people were at least interested in the beginning including myself in the very least. Of course there's always taste, but people play characters they initially dont have a taste for all the time. Because they're interesting/fun.
Design might have an understandable intent & doesnt have to be
terrible. Her design isn't terrible at all. She's NOT bad obviously, but pretty boring. But it might as well be bad if people generally dont see a value in it. Pointing to lack of umbrellas out here. Going off of something said in beta thread a bit ago about options...yes shes designed around ravenous, but if someone wants to stay overstuff/satiated, they should and have a good reason to. again, slower frames/low grab damage/inability to eat projectiles are enough to provide a proper drawback. But starving is supposed to be the actual
punishment, not the other modes. Ravenous balanced of course by how if you dont pay attention & feed, you'll hit starving in no time. If you wanna stay far away from ravenous you can, but youll be slower.
For most part ravenous is fine, but being able to cash out 3bars to extend duration
sooner would be a welcome addition.
Last Thoughts:
That was a doozy. Overall I love the fact SG has been ok with trying new things for DLC. But the main issue is it seems to always end in a half-measure these days while not being applied to rest of the cast & as I've said, the fear of going into new (once normal/expected) territory is kneecapping any sort of real satisfaction. End of the day, most cool stuff's reverted & I'd like to see that done away with. Can always adjust & modify to what works end of the day with lower damage/scaling but the movement, slow frames for overstuffed, and danger of reaching starved with ravenous is more than enough. She needs some actual upside now making more people
want to use her. Last thing ill say is many designers, especially car designers focus on the looks, feel & theme first before structural (balance) things to make it 'realistic.' I think it's about time for that way of thinking & not getting lost in forum convos only to bypass majority of whats been put forth. It's not fun to argue/debate points back & forth only to leave it on paper. Everyone's voice is important who's supported SG because no single person including myself has the answer. Lets put the rubber to the road for a change to truly collaborate. What ends up being final product, who knows, but being ignored/written-off from anyone in power to enact changes no matter how non-confrontational/polite wont really help. Nor should "No" or 2-3 small inconsequential changes should rarely be the first or final answer for things this involved.
At any rate thanks for reading, have a good day/night
