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Undizzy Discussion

Luweewu

Luweewu

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We had a thread for it on pre-crash SH, so might as well bring it back.

What are your thoughts on the Undizzy/Drama system? Is it doing it's job? Should stun be higher/lower than it is now? Should it even exist at all, with the IPS system change?

I think it's been doing it's job well. It along with other changes have made the game more reset-oriented which I think was a good thing. I don't think it's stifled creativity as I remember some were concerned about, but has in fact helped increase it. Players have been experimenting with various ways to beat it or exploit it, leading to tactics being used that wouldn't have been bothered with in SDE. There's still things to tweak, but I think it's got it mostly down pact.
 
Definitely a step up in the right direction from no undizzy in SDE so props to Mike Z, but don't expect undizzies to be your "magic cure" of not being bodied by aggressive rushdown. All you got is a little more leeway buffer so leveling up your game is the real magic cure.
 
I like it; not sure how much it will change in the long run yet, but things like the deterioration are great.
 
I feel like it didnt really change much. All it did was remove some of those ridiculous long combos which only Severin did anyways. Everyone else is still doing mostly the same stuff, and killing with 1 reset. Maybe 2 resets if its a throw or something.
 
A big thing undizzy messes with is long carrying combos (like barrel loops, standard valentine combos, etc) that are supposed to get the opponent to the wall and then put them in a reset/pressure grinder. By the time they're at the corner the undizzy will matter a lot. Generally any long carry combo with a late reset will trigger undizzy if you try a full length combo on the reset. I imagine in 3v3 a long carry combo + an optimized short reset combo with a good non-install super dhc can kill with two bars but not on a 2v2 or 3v2.
 
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obscura said:
I feel like it didnt really change much. All it did was remove some of those ridiculous long combos which only Severin did anyways. Everyone else is still doing mostly the same stuff, and killing with 1 reset. Maybe 2 resets if its a throw or something.
A lot of people had long, multiple character combos in SDE. I did, @keninblack did, @winnie @SonicFox5000 etc. Maybe non east coast players had them too but who knows/cares. Severin's combo was notable in that he continued it via raw tags rather than DHCs, but it's the same sort of thing.
 
Why the fuck does Undizzy carry over weirdly on resets and shit?

Someone explain this to me because it's pretty weird.
 
Say you have a 100 hit combo.

No Undizzy carryover:
- Do 90 hits, reset
- Do 100 hits, kill

Undizzy carryover:
;; EITHER
- Do 90 hits, reset
- Do 30-something hits, reset
- Do 30-something hits, reset
- Do 30-something hits, kill
;; OR
- Do 50 hits, reset
- Do 50 hits, reset
- Do 50 hits, kill
;; OR
- Do 30-something hits, reset
- Do 30-something hits, reset
- Do 30-something hits, reset
- Do 100 hits, kill
;; etc

The idea is that you get a reward for resetting early in your combo and can't just do a full combo into reset into another full combo.

.. That's the theory, anyways. In practice you still just kill everything -_-
 
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What I would love to see and Im going to try is people taking a combo half way to undizzy and then reseting their opponent then continue their new combo until undizzy kicks in and burst bait it. As of right know it seams as if no one knows when undizzy is going to start. There may not be a way to track it during a real match but if a player can memorize when undizzy will activate after a reset then they would have an advantage. I don't know how hard this would be but its something I want to try when I get this version.
 
mcpeanuts said:
A lot of people had long, multiple character combos in SDE. I did, @keninblack did, @winnie @SonicFox5000 etc. Maybe non east coast players had them too but who knows/cares. Severin's combo was notable in that he continued it via raw tags rather than DHCs, but it's the same sort of thing.
I honestly dont know. I use burst baits way more now since it resets the stun gauge.
 
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Here's something annoying I haven't seen anyone else mention about undizzy: It carries over completely for frame perfect resets like a meaty airthrow, but if the opponent gets a single free frame it instantly drops to 346 no matter how high it was. That 4 points under 350 means the reset combo can include an extra chain after reaching combo stage 5 before undizzy kicks in.

So if you have a chain you are intentionally using to get way over 350 undizzy for an undizzy burst bait reset, it may or may not work if there is a near-imperceptible gap in hitstun.
 
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Well it certainly stops silly 1 meter TOD combos and such but it doesn't stop the 1 reset = kill problem.

That said, I don't know how you could really fix that without drastically reducing the stun limit which i don't think is a good idea.
 
keninblack said:
Why the fuck does Undizzy carry over weirdly on resets and shit?

Someone explain this to me because it's pretty weird.


I think that number next to the combo stage keeps track of undizzy. When you drop a combo, it doesn't automatically reset to 0. It waits a second, and then starts counting down. So if you reset and then hit them before the number counts all the way down, it will stop at whatever number it was on when they got hit and continue counting up from there. That's also why it's difficult to track exactly when it will go off in your reset; if your timing isn't frame specific you likely won't get the same number each time.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
The idea is that you get a reward for resetting early in your combo and can't just do a full combo into reset into another full combo.

.. That's the theory, anyways. In practice you still just kill everything -_-

This.
 
winnie said:
What I would love to see and Im going to try is people taking a combo half way to undizzy and then reseting their opponent then continue their new combo until undizzy kicks in and burst bait it.
I think people don't give the fact that Undizzy burst only occurs at the start of a frame enough credit. I don't have access to SQE, but as soon as the patch hits I'm gonna be playing around like mad trying to find something that'll work as a bait.

Like, you don't need to get the Undizzy counter to an exact amount, it only starts going down at the end of a combo so if you learn the Undizzy increase of a few chains and put it together to make something that fits in a certain range, then follow up with a reset into a combo that fills the rest of the capacity, then start a chain with a move that'll set up a bait and voila, a burst bait is made.

To put together an example that's made up of inaccurate and untested values:
Let's say there's an average increase of 50 Undizzy points per chain, some do 40, some do 45, some do 50, 55 or 60, and you want to get to 350 with these chains.
You have one simple combo consisting of 3 chains (counted by Undizzy), the total Unidizzy value of the combo is 55 + 55 + 50 = 165, so you want another 185 to finish reaching the cap.

What this really means is that you need to either perfect your timing for a reset to be perfect to the frame, or you set yourself up an error correcting chain. To do this you need to make another combo consisting of chains that add up to a number less than 185, and then another chain to put on the end which reaches the cap. So say the maximum Undizzy reduction amount between your combo's end and your reset->follow up combo's start is 50, you want a chain that has an Undizzy value of more than 50 to tack on the end, this means that even if you take the full amount of time to get in your next combo, it doesn't matter because this chain will make up for the lost Undizzy value, then all you have to do is follow up with a move that'll put you into a position where if they bait you'll be safe and BOOM, burst bait from Undizzy.

Now this seems like quite a bit of work, but if you think about it you can split it up into 2 resets (which would be more work in terms of calculations, but less work in raising the Undizzy counter to where you want it). The hardest bit is probably going to be getting that hit at the start of the last chain to put you in a safe position, but you could always work backwards. Take a burst bait you know already and work in reverse from that to get something together that'll actually work.
 
Undizzy is honestly better than I originally thought. It does the job it needs to and it helps prevent those nasty combos from SDE. Combos are still deadly, but not as...what's the word......stupid?

That's what I feel anyway.
 
Well, even if matches are still structured combo->reset->dead, combos are shorter at least.
 
Jason said:
Well it certainly stops silly 1 meter TOD combos and such but it doesn't stop the 1 reset = kill problem.

That said, I don't know how you could really fix that without drastically reducing the stun limit which i don't think is a good idea.

I think certain things should grant stun before stage 5, or maybe it should work after x hits in a stage of an IPS. (stuff like Valentine jab forward fierce should add stun after the first time you do it in a combo, or barrel loops, or some of Parasoul's links)
 
As a solo player the thing that bothers me the most about undizzy is how it carries over between characters. Like I will kill 1 char with a combo then if I manage to hit the next character coming in, bam green undizzy burst.
 
One thing that really annoys me is how IPS now tracks normals across characters so it gimps raw tag combos unnecessarily, when undizzy already does the job of not having combos go for absolutely stupidly long and skew the risk-reward which was the entire problem with raw tag combos in the first place.
 
Tag combos have the immense benefit of getting a character out safely (billion times better than raw tagging) without costing meter (billion times better than DHCing).
They needed a downside, and a noticeable one at that. I'd prefer if you flat couldn't combo after tags, but this way is workable too and keeps a bit more swag in the game.
 
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