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We're All Spoiled (Observation)

Is it weird that I think (edit: most) people are playing the game/characters more than they're playing the player?

I feel like a wild mutant heretic that lives in the mountains every time I think this and compare it to what the SG community is discussing.
 
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hlvn said:
Is it weird that I think people are playing the game/characters more than they're playing the player?

I feel like a wild mutant heretic that lives in the mountains every time I think this and compare it to what the SG community is discussing.

More like, people are playing based on what they've heard and not based on what's actually going on in the match, imo. If there was less whining based on what players read/hear on forums and more focus on figuring out what's going on while they play, I'm sure the community would be much better.
 
@hlvn I'm not sure what you mean? Not to mention that the characters play roughly the same. Add to that the randomness of ranked, and with only a handful of exceptions all I see is "generic Filia #46" or whatever.

@View619 I don't think that is entirely fair. While there are certainly some opinions on here that seem rooted in regurgitation, I find that most of us have a fair idea of what is going on. It isn't like I bitch about Updo on the forums as I do, and then log in to game only to give up when I see Updo (every... fucking... match). I, and I assume this holds for most average+ players, am actively trying to counter it.
 
hlvn said:
Is it weird that I think people are playing the game/characters more than they're playing the player?
Not the case unless I'm playing bella vs head off fortune or bella vs peacock+HK HB
 
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Spencer said:
I don't think that is entirely fair. While there are certainly some opinions on here that seem rooted in regurgitation, I find that most of us have a fair idea of what is going on. It isn't like I bitch about Updo on the forums as I do, and then log in to game only to give up when I see Updo (every... fucking... match). I, and I assume this holds for most average+ players, am actively trying to counter it.[/USER]


sorry to say but this kind of just highlights what @[USER=47]hlvn was trying to point out.

you aren't losing to updo, you are losing to players.

updo assist is good. its up to you to figure out where and when your opponent calls the assist or uses the move and how to punish it and capatlize off that moment.

people in SG are generally pretty bad at using assists (no offence to anyone, i don't exactly think i am hot shit with assists in anyway, and its a mechanic which especially in SG takes some advanced understanding to apply to full potential) and if you focus more on their human patterns then the properties of the move, you will find gaps and places to counter it.

i see lots of players who are considered "top" the neutral with this mentality. its always worth making maneuvers that allow you to get reads on your opponents habits.

and to be honest i don't see updo a majority of matches. is it one of the more popular assists? yes. are over 50 % of the matches i play involving an updo assist?

nah.


to bring back on topic, i think a focus on offline play is really important and something i am trying to improve in my immediate scene; you just learn so much more playing people in person because the frustration you feel is different then online. it has a face, and usually that face belongs to a pretty cool dude that will help you out instead of some evil faceless online entity.

its really fun showing people tech i have found or more optimized combos or different approaches to neutral that i think of.[/user]
 
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GirlyStyle said:
...

Well first my point to View is that despite what we think we see here, most of us are actively working on fixing our shortcomings in game. I was merely criticizing the notion that complaints here stem from reading complaints here. I won't address why I hate Updo (or any invuln DP) except to say that I think it dumbs down the game unnecessarily in its current incarnation, but we can reserve that topic for another day.

As for playing the player, I just don't think it is realistic in many cases. I don't find myself encountering great players regularly on ranked. On a lucky night, I might get paired back to back against a solid player only to not see them again for an indefinite amount of time.

Those I do play relatively regularly ( I'm looking at you @hlvn ), we do find ourselves "playing the player", but generally the best we can do is play the team.
 
Spencer said:
As for playing the player, I just don't think it is realistic in many cases. I don't find myself encountering great players regularly on ranked. On a lucky night, I might get paired back to back against a solid player only to not see them again for an indefinite amount of time.


a lot of people are going to disagree with you and i am one of them
 
Online play, which is what most SG players get the most of, definitely favors learning the character matchup rather than learning how to play against a specific player.
 
and people wonder why they go 10-0 against players better then them
 
Ranked is bad.

When it comes to hosting sessions cnce the console version is out it will be easier to host them. Pc brings a lot of annoying issues
For example at NEC:
.Not everyone's controller worked on every set up
.Every set up felt different and some had lag people weren't used too(like mine)
Or just in general
.Not everyone can bring their desktops to the venue(same with laptops)

See you guys in 2 weeks yes yes?
 
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GirlyStyle said:
a focus on offline play is really important and something i am trying to improve in my immediate scene; you just learn so much more playing people in person because the frustration you feel is different then online. it has a face, and usually that face belongs to a pretty cool dude that will help you out instead of some evil faceless online entity.

its really fun showing people tech i have found or more optimized combos or different approaches to neutral that i think of.[/user]

This, 100%. Solving a problem that you run into once or twice on the ladder is one thing, seeing that problem every week/month is entirely different. It also helps to immediately see what happens to that person/situation when someone else is on the stick, and give you a better idea of what to do when the stick is passed back to you. Lobbies are a fantastic addition to the game, but I don't think it hits quite all the right buttons just yet.

It's also worth mentioning that having someone in your corner that knows you, your team, your habits, everything counts for a lot. Having those people lean over your shoulder and tell you "you're doing X, try Y I bet it'd work" at a tournament can be invaluable.

Online play is super cool and everything, but there's some things that just can't be replaced.
 
GirlyStyle said:
a lot of people are going to disagree with you and i am one of them

Like you, we played together... once. Do you remember anything about our MU?

Edited to add:

Online play is all I'll get. I live in Wyoming. It has 500000 people in a big ass area. In other words:

lowest population state + 10th largest state = no local scene

Hell, I haven't heard shit all about a Denver scene (largest city between 2 and 3 hours away).
 
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hlvn said:
Having those people lean over your shoulder and tell you "you're doing X, try Y I bet it'd work" at a tournament can be invaluable.

At NEC during my match with @winnie (iirc) @ShadeMoneh was basically over my shoulder and he said "That's a nice combo you got there. It'd be a shame if..."

Then I dropped it. That's pretty invaluable right there if you ask me
 
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Spencer said:
Like you, we played together... once. Do you remember anything about our MU?



a) we have played more then once. i change my steam name a lot.

b) adjusting to players as opposed to mu's are things you can do on the fly with certain tactics to get a read. its stupid to play someone once and assume that is how they will always play. its not like i keep notes on everyone i play, lol. there's so many little things you can do with spacing and the use of certain moves/blockstrings/whatever to begin to get a read on how a player plays; how they use meter, how the approach defence, how the approach spacing, etc.

c) no offence intended but with a question like that, i don't think you understand how reading your opponent works in the short term.

someone good to watch to get a sense of what i am talking about is watching PR Balrog's stream; he is really good while playing calling out what he thinks his opponent is thinking and how he thinks they play based on little things they do and ways he conditions them. he then states how is going to counter them. check it out when he is playing sf4 its pretty cool and a good skill to start picking up.
 
dekillsage said:
At NEC during my match with @winnie (iirc) @ShadeMoneh was basically over my shoulder and he said "That's a nice combo you got there. It'd be a shame if..."

Then I dropped it. That's pretty invaluable right there if you ask me

addon.php
 
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Eh, I've seen more whining about hit-stop, 2 meter dhc into pressure, invincible assists, Fortune Fiber Upper than threads for discussing how to handle these things
GirlyStyle said:
and people wonder why they go 10-0 against players better then them

People wonder about this?

I agree that ranked is rubbish, lobbies are as close as you'll get to offline scenes if you don't have that option. Just create a room, and make sure you add players to your list and talk about your matches with them. Playing vs character while completely ignoring player tendencies works up to a certain level, then just fails after that.
 
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View619 said:
Playing vs character while completely ignoring player tendencies works up to a certain level, then just fails after that.

just to clarify, in what way do you mean this? like, when you don't have the abilities/knowledge on how to make player reads, or like thinking your opponent is a scrub so you can just play the matchup?

i agree with the first one because obviously you can't do what you don't know and that's part of leveling up.

but against scrubs i ALWAYS play the player; i am going to play safe and not challenge them at all and let them kill themselves because they don't necessarily have the knowledge to make match up based decisions and have the random factor of doing something i wouldn't naturally account for. to me, although it is a very basic, simple example of it, is playing the player and the best way to approach low level players
 
GirlyStyle said:
a) we have played more then once. i change my steam name a lot.

You son of a... well add me: QSpec

And yes, I know how to read the short term. I can't imagine that most people don't do that.

EG:
Q. Everytime I throw reset, dude jumps backwards, what do I do?
A. Jump throw... got him.

Q. Mashing Filia, what do I do?
A. Bait airsuper and let him burn meter.

I'd be incredibly surprised and disappointed if even the most basic players can't read patterns like that. It is really over the span of a multitude of games that skill begins to separate itself.
 
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Personally the troubles I run into is the fact that as a rookie fighting game player I've had to relearn the game I want to learn multiple times within the last year. SG has been my training ground for my fighting game mindset, execution, and matchup experience. I played a little bit of UMVC3 to start off with, which I regret terribly, I never got into SF4, I only play KOF missions to help execution and I just play casual Vsav and old SF games with my one friend over GGPO.
Since I don't have the execution of a veteran relearning combos that do not work anymore because of the prior, consistent undizzy changes has been a bit frustrating considering I don't even have an Encore Squigly combo yet, part from being lazy and part from having trouble with the cancels required for the new optimal ones.
What my point is I believe is that while the undizzy changes worked out for a better game in my opinion, changes also wear the player down. It might be fun to change your combos or techniques up the first few times, but after a while it's good to have some stuff stick for the player base to learn.
I see new mixups every single time I play, which is the fantastic thing about SG, but also a frustrating one in some cases. If people push for more changes, the relearning of a game like SG can be a put off for some intermediate players.
 
See, that's interesting, because my same non-optimal-still-good-dmg Filia combo has worked forever.
I think a decent amount of this is the mindset that optimal combos are the only things worth doing, and the resulting focus on that instead of on aspects of the game that haven't changed and have instead become more useful as combos got shorter...but I guess that's just me! :^)
 
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dekillsage said:
Ranked is bad.

When it comes to hosting sessions cnce the console version is out it will be easier to host them. Pc brings a lot of annoying issues
For example at NEC:
.Not everyone's controller worked on every set up
.Every set up felt different and some had lag people weren't used too(like mine)
Or just in general
.Not everyone can bring their desktops to the venue(same with laptops)

See you guys in 2 weeks yes yes?
Who the hell does bulleted lists like this
 
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Xephyr said:
Since I don't have the execution of a veteran relearning combos that do not work anymore because of the prior, consistent undizzy changes has been a bit frustrating considering I don't even have an Encore Squigly combo yet, part from being lazy and part from having trouble with the cancels required for the new optimal ones.
What my point is I believe is that while the undizzy changes worked out for a better game in my opinion, changes also wear the player down. It might be fun to change your combos or techniques up the first few times, but after a while it's good to have some stuff stick for the player base to learn.
I see new mixups every single time I play, which is the fantastic thing about SG, but also a frustrating one in some cases. If people push for more changes, the relearning of a game like SG can be a put off for some intermediate players.

That's weird because my same, crappy Parasoul and Bella combos that I've been doing forever suddenly got a lot closer to optimal with the undizzy cap reduction.
 
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Mike_Z said:
See, that's interesting, because my same non-optimal-still-good-dmg Filia combo has worked forever.
I think a decent amount of this is the mindset that optimal combos are the only things worth doing, and the resulting focus on that instead of on aspects of the game that haven't changed and have instead become more useful as combos got shorter...but I guess that's just me! :^)

I think its because up to a point optimal combos were the only thing worth doing.

With the changes, the sting has been taken out of them quite a bit, and I don't know that everyone has adjusted.

Not to mention that most combos have natural exit points and yesterdays optimal combo is today's slightly shorter optimal combo.
 
Spencer said:
I think its because up to a point optimal combos were the only thing worth doing.
I'm not even starting with this.
Spencer said:
Not to mention that most combos have natural exit points and yesterdays optimal combo is today's slightly shorter optimal combo.
I don't think this is true - optimizing so you could get all your chains in before -> skipping the last one now (or equivalent) is not necessarily optimal anymore.
I remember a certain person complaining Parasoul didn't have over 6k anymore because he was using cut-short older stuff, whereas if you do something totally different, she has much more damage now. I also remember that even Severin was surprised by that.
 
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I'm late, there's a lot of other conversation, I'm sorry, but
Mike_Z said:
That's the problem with trying to be "an abstract kinda guy" and then ask about real situations. :^)
I know. It sucks. But unfortunately, I don't have any in-depth experience with any game but Skullgirls (so when people say "OMG Nu/Tager!" I kinda just go "okay, I'm guessing it was super broken"). And Skullgirls doesn't have super broken anything, so there's that.
I know you can get a lot farther than you think if you just stop complaining or really want to play whoever.
Solo Bella. Hat Arms 4 life.
 
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Jason said:
That's weird because my same, crappy Parasoul and Bella combos that I've been doing forever suddenly got a lot closer to optimal with the undizzy cap reduction.
My midscreen Filia combo with multiple hairballs long ago was patched out, my old Filia corner combo was shortened by the newest Undizzy, and the only Squigly combo I know was shortened as well.
For internet purposes I'm not complaining at all...even though the way I have to type this stuff makes it seem like it.

MikeZ is right, though, per usual. The new changes to screw up my combos have made me look at the game at a string by string basis rather than entire combos that I must optimally do. Learn more strings, learn more combos and confusing resets.
 
Spencer said:
Not to mention that most combos have natural exit points and yesterdays optimal combo is today's slightly shorter optimal combo.

I feel this is (mostly) with Painwheel, because of the corner damage she's capable of when riding max undizzy. But of course I'd say that.

8k meterless midscreen into a burst-proof 6k corner... DHC for unoptimal setups... Add an extra 2k on CH in most cases...

She just does hobillions.

Edited for more numbers.
 
dekillsage said:
At NEC during my match with @winnie (iirc) @ShadeMoneh was basically over my shoulder and he said "That's a nice combo you got there. It'd be a shame if..."

Then I dropped it. That's pretty invaluable right there if you ask me

Dunno what you're talking about man. Kappa
 
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Spencer said:
Hell, I haven't heard shit all about a Denver scene (largest city between 2 and 3 hours away).

Contact D Jones on steam, he was trying/did get something going in Denver.
 
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