• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

What constitutes character mastery/high level play?

IsaVulpes said:
I mentioned guitalex because he made famous remarks of the sort "Filia resets are predictable and easy to defend against" and "HK.FiberUp has a ton of startup, you can just reaction block it"

P.S.

Wtf at this statement

I think you are misunderstanding the point of that quote.

The problem with old HK Fiber Upper was not that it was super fast, it was that it was stupid invincible and recovered faster than it should have.

No one complained about how fast HK came out, you COULD reaction block it, but if you were blocking in the air, it was hard as shit to punish, and if you weren't blocking, you would die by the time the combo was over.
 
iLoli said:
I think you are misunderstanding the point of that quote.

The problem with old HK Fiber Upper was not that it was super fast, it was that it was stupid invincible and recovered faster than it should have.

No one complained about how fast HK came out, you COULD reaction block it, but if you were blocking in the air, it was hard as shit to punish, and if you weren't blocking, you would die by the time the combo was over.
I hate to steal the words straight from Isa like this but, what does this have to do with anything you originally quoted? He was talking about Filia's IAD overheads which require you to switch from your default crouching block to a standing block in <20 frames. Fortune's Fiber Uppers and all her ground normals can be blocked by a simple crouching block and don't require any reactions to successfully block in the middle of pressure.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
I hate to steal the words straight from Isa like this but, what does this have to do with anything you originally quoted? He was talking about Filia's IAD overheads which require you to switch from your default crouching block to a standing block in <20 frames. Fortune's Fiber Uppers and all her ground normals can be blocked by a simple crouching block and don't require any reactions to successfully block in the middle of pressure.
Okay, let's follow this.

*Alexis is mentioned because of his quote earlier*

*I think he's mentioned along with Filia for "hard to react jumping normals"*

*ISA responds to that with the quote*

*I respond to that with a reply telling him that he is misunderstanding the point of what Alexis said in the first place*


Heeere we are.


Also, I guess guess if we all played a character with something as silly as old lk Fiber, we'd think her resets were predictable.

Pretty much everyone knows where the reset points are, the question is "how do I react?".

But for Fortune, her answer WAS "just fucking uppercut".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dime
Dhoppler said:
Honestly, why is this community so bad? What do we, as a unit, lack that other communities have?
Volume and experience.

The competitive playerbase for Skullgirls is scattered and each respective area has a small portion of the playerbase, meaning most people must rely on netplay to get matchup experience (luckily, SG's netplay is good enough to accommodate this, but netplay is always suboptimal).
Most new players are picking up Skullgirls as their first fighting game and, so far, there hasn't been much overlap from other established fighting games. For the most part, those who have come from other fighting games are the best players right now in Skullgirls.
 
  • Like
Reactions: iLoli
Personal attacks will stop now. Please stay on topic.

Don't start a harassing post and don't reply to them either.

Thank you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dime
Hk fiber is easy to react block offline. It's slow as shit. It doesn't make guitalex any more right since it can't be blocked when one is sticking out stuff on a jumpin. But if one uses twitch here, it can easily be reaction blocked. And when one is jumping, one would already be blocking for the most part but it would even work on dashins... In sde at least. But like I said this is offline.

Online I play against a guy that uses fortunes head on iad j.hp all day like its the fucking bizness, and mixes it up with cr.lk... Offline I know for a fact that I was blocking 95% of those overheads on reaction at evo. They are slow. I only got bit when I was in the middle of something. Point being its a lag tactic. It work irl. Same as me using painwheels fly instant j.lk... Offline people were react blocking it 80% of the time if not more.


And about milia blocker:


It proves little cause there is little telegraph about what move is coming. If an overhead is 20 frames, but one can't tell it's an overhead until its 10th frame, then one only actually has 10 frames of reaction time.

But take a move about the same speed but, is airborn on frame 1 or very close to it and its MUCH easier to block cause its early airborn state telegraphs the move.


I know for a fact that I was react blocking filias iad j.hp pretty consistently at evo offline on 0 lag monitors. Online is a whole different story. On laggy monitors is a whole different story. Against hard to read people is a different story. But in a situation where I know that there is a high chance of an iad j.hp attack coming, I can sit in down back and wait till I see her feet leave the ground and block high before the j.hp hits me. Can't do it against j.lk though.

Also, people are trying to pigeonhole reactions into something it isn't. You can't just say that twitch doesn't count cause twitch relies on a partial guess.

As much as it relies on a guess it ALSO relies on reactions. And that makes it a reaction based strategy. There are things out there that not even twitch can react to. And when saying that not even twitch reaction can catch these things... One has to realize that twitch is a component of reaction time and can't be dismissed as "you are just guessing" cause there is a lot more to it than that.
 
HK Fiber starts up in 15 frames.

You're really gonna tell me you've never been in a point of play where you've blocked things you've normally wouldn't?

Well okay.
 
In my opinion, character mastery is knowing your character to the point you are aware of all your move properties, and what works on which character(s)

Yeah that second one is match-up knowledge, go figure.

Additionally, if you know all the colors by heart, you are well on your way to being a fashionista
 
  • Like
Reactions: Broseidon Rex, KhaosMuffins and Dime
iLoli said:
HK Fiber starts up in 15 frames.
I just wrote a wordy post on how it is impossible to reaction block something at <18f startup, and you think 12-13f is blockable anyways.. ?

Dime_x said:
Also, people are trying to pigeonhole reactions into something it isn't. You can't just say that twitch doesn't count cause twitch relies on a partial guess.
Opponent's Filia dashes towards me, c.MKs
- Bit later in the match -
Opponent's Filia dashes towards me, c.MKs
- Bit later in the match -
Opponent's Filia dashes towards me, I spam 21212121212121, see him twitch and Lvl3 his c.MK
.. Woo, I can reaction-super 10f moves?

This is shooting off the charts
 
Last edited:
IsaVulpes said:
I just wrote a wordy post on how it is impossible to reaction block something at <18f startup, and you think 12-13f is blockable anyways.. ?


Opponent's Filia dashes towards me, c.MKs
- Bit later in the match -
Opponent's Filia dashes towards me, c.MKs
- Bit later in the match -
Opponent's Filia dashes towards me, I spam 21212121212121, see him twitch and Lvl3 his c.MK
.. Woo, I can reaction-super 10f moves?

This is shooting off the charts



Dude... Your ridiculous arguments are annoying.

I never say anything about being able to reactively block or super 10 frame moves so I guess you can't read.

The human limits of twitch reactions (which is a partial guess as we already know) is around 12-14 frames for the fastest people in the world. My reaction time on reaction tests varies from 0.168 best clicks on that sheep test to around 240 ms average on the human benchmark. That is slow. But it's 2 completely different types of reaction tests. the sheep test is based on diagnosing movement, the human bench mark is based on diagnosing a change in color. Milia blocker is based on diagnosing the difference between 2 moves that hide the moves telegraph in the startup.


People can be hit by incredibly slow things as long as those slow things don't telegraph the move. Filia iad telegraphs itself by leaving the ground. It's a guess as to what she will do during the iad. But the iad itself when followed up by a j.hp is reactable. J.lk not so much for someone as slow as me. Only the fastest players in the world could probably twitch that one down and even then you still have a mixup via iad wiff airthrow, land, cr.lk or throw.
So yeah don't know what you are arguing about. I never said that sub 12 frame reactions were possible.


Age once did neutral game raw cilia slide against me at around half the slides max range. I lvl3'd it with double on reaction. But I guess that wasn't reaction either since I guessed wrong (I thought it was going to be a dash)...


You seem to have a really hard time separating the fact that some reactions require guesses, but aren't fully guesses and aren't fully reactions either.
 
Dime_x said:
But I guess that wasn't reaction either since I guessed wrong (I thought it was going to be a dash)...
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU don't get that a reaction is = It does not involve a guess

If I guess, I can block 1f overheads. They're still not blockable on reaction.
If I guess, I can twitch super a 15f move. That's still not doable on reaction.

Yeah, that "I see him twitch and only super because I did see him twitch" is a 'reaction'
But I would also have supered if he had just switched guard, and as such it is not reliable in any way, shape or form

"You can't do X on reaction" = "You can't do X without guessing".
 
IsaVuples is making the point that twitch reaction is different from recognition reaction or decision reaction.

Twitch reaction will always be the fastest, with decision being the slowest.

In order to properly recognise a certain move, it takes time for your brain to process that "yes this is that move" and then perform the proper reaction to the move. He posted a link and quoted that part in his post, so you should read that to get more detail on it.

In order to properly do a recognition reaction to a move in a fighting game, you need more than 12 frames as detailed by Vulpe's post.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Broseidon Rex
Dime_x said:
Naw man it was 10 star snes streetfighter, what the true ogs played.
respect knuckles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dime
worldjem said:
IsaVuples is making the point that twitch reaction is different from recognition reaction or decision reaction.

Twitch reaction will always be the fastest, with decision being the slowest.

In order to properly recognise a certain move, it takes time for your brain to process that "yes this is that move" and then perform the proper reaction to the move. He posted a link and quoted that part in his post, so you should read that to get more detail on it.

In order to properly do a regocnition reaction to a move in a fighting game, you need more than 12 frames as detailed by Vulpe's post.


How fast is Chun Li's low forward in 4?

I've U1'ed it with DJ, while knowing it was low forward.

But that might have been a mix of knowledge and reaction.
 
you would have reacted to a button push or it be a twitch reaction, with a mix of knowledge/anticipation. Its impossible to specifically react to a low forward in time for a charge ultra.
 
Anticipation, or a correct prediction, can lead people to believe that they can react to things sooner than they actually can.
If you're anticipating an attack, it isn't a pure reaction to what's happening because you already know what's coming and when it's coming.
At this point it's just a twitch reaction because you're already primed in all other areas, so it's just a matter of executing it when you need to.
 
High level play = knowing the difference between twitch reactions and recognition reactions with a little side knowledge of anticipation being mistaken for reactions. Got it.

That said, who here uses a note book so they can keep track of things?
 
Not a notebook, but I do have a bunch of google docs of shit and then I store it into my head.

Once again, I'm REALLLY sorry about starting that whole "training diary" fad, my bad, didn't think that would catch.
 
Dhoppler said:
High level play = knowing the difference between twitch reactions and recognition reactions with a little side knowledge of anticipation being mistaken for reactions. Got it.

That said, who here uses a note book so they can keep track of things?
I use a notebook for SFIV to keep track of thoughts for the billions of matchips you have to deal with in that game. I don't use one for SG, but then I'm not a high-level players so that may not answer your question.
 
High level play and master of a character all come down to two things, optimization and winning.

High level play in all fighting games is based on how well the player can optimize there character to there full potential. What makes a player "good" is if they can beat other "good" players and becomes recognized by their piers. Fully optimizing a character means you learn everything about them and can use what you know in a real match. This includes defense as well as offense, defense equals blocking, reversals, and zoning while offense means combos, approach and mix ups. (note that this only a few examples of offense/defense and does not cover everything) This should be basic knowledge for anyone who plays fighting games competitively.

Well thats all I have to say about this topic hope it helps.
 
  • Like
Reactions: blufang, KhaosMuffins and Dime
OHT


(One handed terror) used to keep a notebook of sf4 stuff, he was one of the chun crew between me shizza him and a few other so cal chuns that used Togo hard... Let me serif I can find some of his vids... They are great even if you don't play streetfighter.
 
Dime_x said:
OHT


(One handed terror) used to keep a notebook of sf4 stuff, he was one of the chun crew between me shizza him and a few other so cal chuns that used Togo hard... Let me serif I can find some of his vids... They are great even if you don't play streetfighter.
If we're naming top players who use notes, then Infiltration is probably the most notable example.

EDIT: Pun not intended.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dime
Yeah, that dude lives by his damn notes:


"Watches infiltration get blown up"

"Infiltration takes out his notebook and reads up"

"Infiltration trashes the other player"



Infiltrations notebook is SSS tier.
 
winnie said:
What makes a player "good" is if they [..] becomes recognized by their piers.
uguc3si3.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: ClarenceMage, Sydoh, deice and 5 others
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back