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Why do some people consider Valentine a bad character?

I'll eventually post something here when I get out of work.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Painwheel is the other character with really subpar assists,
[snip]
Also as far as I know, Painwheel still has the only assist that lets Big Band convert off midscreen Super Sonic Jazz, so that's one reason you'd use her for the assist.
Val HK bypass lets Cerebella convert off Diamond Drop or Dynamo (F+HP+Val), lets Parasoul convert off midscreen pillar->bikes on anyone the bikes don't OTG (Val, dash, F+HP), lets you put extra high-damage knockback moves in your combos, etc, and her throw assist stands them up. She doesn't have mashable neutral assists but she can give you a lot.

Cynical said:
As an actual pixie she's pretty damn bad given that her actual movement speed isn't terribly fast and her "alpha blade"-like move needs meter to do anything good, and the ground version is always awful, and her projectile is horribly minus on block.
Ground LK Bypass is -4, which is unpunishable except by Big Band. And you'll forgive me if I can't think of a (reasonably balanced) game where there are projectiles that cover screen space and are plus on block at point blank.

Damage does not determine if a character is good or not.
 
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Cynical said:
As an actual pixie she's pretty damn bad given that her actual movement speed isn't terribly fast and her "alpha blade"-like move needs meter to do anything good, and the ground version is always awful, and her projectile is horribly minus on block.

(Also, I didn't pick her because I wanted a pixie; I picked her because I wanted a character that threw fireballs on QCF but was more focused around using her normals in neutral rather than a pure projectile runaway. SG needs a shoto... Eliza kinda fits the bill, though).

She has the ability to double jump and airdash and and iirc has the fastest running speed in the game. She can get where she needs to be provided her user isn't terrible at reacting and blocking. She's designed to basically be Chipp without the teleports (and a DP) and frankly, she doesn't need them and if she did, she'd be without a doubt the best character in the game since she'd have quite literally everything at that point.

Also her Savage Bypass has uses in meterless combos near or in the corner as well as it's uses for Okizeme from a knockdown. Seriously, you want to corner push someone, hitconfirm into s.HKx3 and do MK/HK Bypass. And that's just counting Val by herself. But you're right...no good uses for Bypass without meter.
 
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Thanks for the ~~~~~great~~~~~ help
great notation
congratulations
you're contributing so much to this thread
(y)

c.lk c.hp
j.hp IAD j.mp j.hp
j.lp j.mp j.hp IAD j.mp j.hk
s.lp(3) s.mp c.mk s.hk(3) xx H bypass xx EKG

j.hp
s.lk c.hp
j.hp IAD j.mp j.hp
j.lp j.mp j.hp IAD j.mk j.hk
dash s.lp(3) s.mp c.mk s.hk(3) xx H Bypass xx EKG Flatliner

Frequently drops on double and parasoul (j.lp or second j.mp whiffs, not enough heigh to do both hits from j.hk)
It IS universal, but I wouldn't call practical. Learning a more damaging weight specific would be better.

The problem is that what she can do, other characters can do the same thing and better.
I just want a backdash that you can cancel with normals, ffs.
 
Mike_Z said:
Ground LK Bypass is -4, which is unpunishable except by Big Band. And you'll forgive me if I can't think of a (reasonably balanced) game where there are projectiles that cover screen space and are plus on block at point blank.
Even without FRCs, GGXX has a few. Venom's Stinger Aim and Carcass Raid, Testament's "forward" EXE Beast, Johnny's coins, and some of Dizzy's shit. Add FRCs, and... yeah.

(Also, isn't Jin's A Ice Blade in BlazBlue +1? It's been ages since I touched that game...)

(Oh, and your own game has Parasoul and Peacock. LP Napalm Shot is +2 on block, so is LK George).

Damage does not determine if a character is good or not.
No, but it's a factor, and in a game with assists it's going to be a bigger factor than in a game without assists.

EDIT:
She has the ability to double jump and airdash and and iirc has the fastest running speed in the game. She can get where she needs to be provided her user isn't terrible at reacting and blocking. She's designed to basically be Chipp without the teleports (and a DP) and frankly, she doesn't need them and if she did, she'd be without a doubt the best character in the game since she'd have quite literally everything at that point.
Chipp has a + on block cS, basicaly + on block rekka, and a (shitty) standing overhead from his rekka chain. As I've mentioned in other threads before, Fortune does a better job at being Chipp than Val does.
 
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Val has super good offense. Her neutral isn't exactly conspicuously powerful, but it's still effective. Her defense leaves something to be desired since she has no AA reversal, but can still catch you with PBGC EKG.

Her normals feel kind of slow, also, but she seems more plus on things than other characters.

Bypass H, Throw, 2MK, 5HK I think would be her most common assist choices with honourable mention to Vial Load, Shuriken, and Command Throw.

Normals have decent range, generally, which allows for easy converts from assists. Fast dash, high jump.

She has an instant overhead crossup in Backdash > airdash > j.HP that I rarely see used.

She's really difficult to Pushblock because of her AD j.MP and AD j.HP and can keep pressure for longer than most.

She can't AD back and do normals, so abuse that but be careful of super jump, and because of her slower normals, it might be good to try and frametrap her more often than other characters.

Not a bad character, but not outwardly powerful. She's mostly just really safe on a lot of things as opposed to having ridiculously strong normals, or doing high damage.
 
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-off topic-
Cynical said:
Even without FRCs, GGXX has a few. Venom's Stinger Aim and Carcass Raid, Testament's "forward" EXE Beast, Johnny's coins, and some of Dizzy's shit. Add FRCs, and... yeah.
I should have specified "non-charge projectiles without any downside" because charge moves are generally given better advantage, it's why they're charge moves.
Forward EXE beast was the most broken move in GGAC, bar none, and is a pretty good example of why you don't want generic projectiles that are plus on block. Coins are limited ammo, and Dizzy's axes are 30+f startup. FRCs take meter and are game specific, as well as affording that advantage to anyone.

Cynical said:
(Oh, and your own game has Parasoul and Peacock. LP Napalm Shot is +2 on block, so is LK George).
Shot is a charge move, and yeah LK George is but it also has gigantic cooldown, and if you miss you can't throw another for years. None of these things are shoto-style projectiles.

-on topic-
Cynical said:
No, but [damage is] a factor, and in a game with assists it's going to be a bigger factor than in a game without assists.
Well of course it's a factor, everyone would like to deplete your lifebar, but it's not like she does 1 point per hit. Half health is 2-touch death the same as 2/3 health is.
And I disagree it's more of a factor with assists, that makes no sense. If anything it's less of a factor because assists can either add damage or fill your holes as a character.
 
People complaining about Val's weaknesses are missing some of the strengths or glazing over them.

agent13 said:
I do like playing val but there are some issues

  • you need to learn combos specifically for characters due to the basic bnb not working(fuck filia).
  • needs vial to do a decent amount of damage/lag gimmicks
  • metered reversals
  • No decent assists besides 2mk or bypass which are beyond mediocre
  • Assist reliant
  • one of the harder characters to use without as much payoff (this is big)
  • Throw range on air grab is laughable(plz buff this)

1. Val has two midscreen combos that will carry someone to the corner and deal reasonable damage. One of lights/mediums, and one for heavies. That's better than other characters' combos that have very real character-specific issues. Her corner combos are more or less universal. As for not wanting to learn a lot of combos, this is Skullgirls and I've never thought "I don't want to learn a new route" upon seeing that one exists.

2. I would disagree with vials being necessary for damage, but more to the point pink vial deals unscaled damage that does not require you to keep hitting them. Also consider that it's a DoT that you can put on an assist who would otherwise be healing while benched.

3. Yep. Painwheel and Chargeless Squigly are right there with you. TBH as a painwheel player, I just kind of got used to it and thought of it as "well most DP/Flashkicks require a meter to make it convertible/safe anyhow so I'm just skipping a step to get to a similar place."

4. She does have some terrible assists.

5. Assist reliant, but also one of the best at supporting her assists and ensuring good conversions when they hit.

6. Until Fukua came along, I always felt that the work/effort you put in with Val scaled beautifully with the results/options it provided. That said, I think the current issue has less to do with Val and more to do with Fukua being a fucking gorilla.

7. It's fine. It doesn't need to be Parasoul's consider how long she can stay in the air when she wants to.
 
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Colossi said:
Thanks for the ~~~~~great~~~~~ help
great notation
congratulations
you're contributing so much to this thread
(y)

You're welcome! I know! Best notations! =3

Frequently drops on double and parasoul (j.lp or second j.mp whiffs, not enough heigh to do both hits from j.hk)

Just did the combo on both Parasoul and Double. Adjust your jump timing after the launch and if it's a heavy (or if you're not confident you'll confirm into the next chain) do 2 hits instead of one on the first j.MP. You'll be able to get all hits of the j.HK. You're welcome.

It IS universal, but I wouldn't call practical. Learning a more damaging weight specific would be better.

You people wanted a practical midscreen universal that is yields high damage. I list one that requires minimal resources and now the complaint is that it's not high enough or somehow too hard to do and that it may be BETTER to do character specific combos instead?

K

The problem is that what she can do, other characters can do the same thing and better.

In terms of combo damage, they may have universals that do more but they lack the tools she has. This is a character with the highest mobility and has a moves that allow her free and easy crossups and crossunders. Her ability to convert hit confirms into damage is ridiculous. The fact other characters have higher damage combos is irrelevant. Damage does not determine if a character is good or not.

I just want a backdash that you can cancel with normals, ffs.

She literally won't be "good enough" for people until she has everything it seems.
 
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so her biggest strength is her versatility for conversions or what? cause that seems to be the greatest aspect of val (i still want to pick her up but i don't know so i would like more insight).
 
Mike_Z said:
-off topic-
I should have specified "non-charge projectiles without any downside" because charge moves are generally given better advantage, it's why they're charge moves.
Forward EXE beast was the most broken move in GGAC, bar none, and is a pretty good example of why you don't want generic projectiles that are plus on block. Coins are limited ammo, and Dizzy's axes are 30+f startup. FRCs take meter and are game specific, as well as affording that advantage to anyone.
Gamma Blade (ironically enough, given the character in question in this thread) is another example; +5 at point blank, 15f startup, and I don't think anyone has ever called that move "broken".

And I disagree it's more of a factor with assists, that makes no sense. If anything it's less of a factor because assists can either add damage or fill your holes as a character.
The fact that assists fill a character's holes are exactly WHY damage is more important in an assist-game than in a non-assist-game.

Think about Potemkin vs. Dizzy. It's OK for Pot to kill Dizzy in two or three hits, because Dizzy should never get touched in the first place. Now, imagine Pot with LnL or mBomber or Brass; he'd have a much easier time getting in, and still having "Potemkin damage" would be utterly imbalancing.

Having assists works to homogenize the neutral options across characters, which will always work to make damage more important.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
so her biggest strength is her versatility for conversions or what? cause that seems to be the greatest aspect of val (i still want to pick her up but i don't know so i would like more insight).

Pretty much that and her movement is ridiculous and compliments her ability to convert.
 
If you want good conversions off of everything, play Eliza. c.mk converts off of absolutely fucking EVERYTHING.
 
Cynical said:
The fact that assists fill a character's holes are exactly WHY damage is more important in an assist-game than in a non-assist-game.

Think about Potemkin vs. Dizzy. It's OK for Pot to kill Dizzy in two or three hits, because Dizzy should never get touched in the first place. Now, imagine Pot with LnL or mBomber or Brass; he'd have a much easier time getting in, and still having "Potemkin damage" would be utterly imbalancing.

Having assists works to homogenize the neutral options across characters, which will always work to make damage more important.
What if Dizzy has an assist that gives her a bunch of extra damage, or an assist that gives Pot a much harder time getting in? What if Dizzy plays solo so she has more health/damage than Pot?

Edit: or to give another example, Juggernaut wasn't "utterly imbalancing" in Marvel vs Capcom 2 despite dealing insane damage with the powerup glitch. Why didn't people just pair him with an assist that magically solves all of his neutral game issues and dominate tournaments?
 
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mcpeanuts said:
The buffs to changed c.HP and c.HK I think really help her mixups after a DHC to install.
2HP overhead change breaking the block high when she's in the air rule really sucks yeah. I hate that change.

But I agree there's no reason to run Val second or third. She should be there by DHC.
Dreamepitaph said:
EXCEPT PW has near invisible resets? AND the best way to deal with mashed supers AND a good option to deal with rediuclous mixups via armor?
Everyone has invisible mix up its Skullgirls.
Thankfully FC JNormal is easy to block but it's the cross over JHK stuff that catches people.
I'm still learning all that.

Also Armor vs Resets is not a big deal.
You're committing to a read that they will not throw you. If they throw you, you get CH.
Also not to mention the start up time before armor even kicks in, that's begging to be hit with a reset. Painwheel has to block just like Valentine or use Deathcrawl, like Valentine has to use EKG or Scalpels.


Also Valentine is always attacking from above you and a little bit in front.
Launchers aren't good anti airs yet and it's not a good idea, and it's hard to deal with that angle without a DP but she will push block it to hover up there longer.

She can stay up there for a really long time bested by Painwheel only. Nobody abuses her flight like Outlaw_Spike does.
He only attacks when he's falling on you with her dope air normals and it works splendid with fast falling into lows and throws and cross over JHP's or NON cross over JHP's :^]

Also no, its not easy to deal with.
Outlaw sweeped Keninblack, SonicFox, and Skarmand back to back in the team tournament at Evo2014 without an assist complimenting her flight and conversions.

She doesn't need more damage she needs like... Smarter people using her strengths instead of her weaknesses.
 
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Colossi said:
  • No back dash/back airdash cancellable into normal
  • No high damage without loading a charge
  • No instant overhead
  • No reversal besides a slow-ass hitgrab that you can't even combo after it even tho you wasted 3 bars
  • A shitty tag in that even got nerfed
  • No safe DHC
  • No way to burst bait efficiently on the ground without wasting a meter
  • A lvl 2 that most of the times is not worth wasting because if you countered an air attack you won't be able to combo right because of height
  • The constant need of an DP assist to be not-that-lame with her
  • Slow/highly predictable resets without lag vial
  • No reliable anti-air
  • Not recovering from air bypass until you reach the ground or waste a meter to be kinda safe, and still suffer a 50% chance of being hit or grabbed after it
  • She is a ninja but needs to play defensively instead of being able to kill people fast and I think this is fucked up
But hey, this is my opinion

1. Backdash that can beat low/throw, albeit situationally. Backdash that can allow for doublejump air normals /really/ low to the ground too.

2. Damage is fair imo.

3. IAD and backdash dj are pretty damn good.

4. Scalpels and EKG get the job done. Counter if you wanna get c r a z y.

5. Tags are cool when they're really good (see Bella, PW, Fukua, Double) but it's always icing on the cake to me.

6. This is true, but if you get the kara vial bait, it's not really wasted. She also has great air baits/options and can still do the IPS/Undizzy trigger into raw tag that anyone else can.

7. Counter super is great, my only real problem with it is that it's kinda rough to get two meters in most games. If done without a vial and they're airborne, jHK + Assist = conversion solved. Never really had a problem converting the vial loaded version either.

8. I feel it. But Val with a DP? Shit.

9. Disagree 100%.

10. I know you hate hearing it, but cMP or sHK are great at their respective ranges. We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

11. Yolo Assist > Bypass > Scalpels is kind of great. Scalpels recovery at the right height is great and you don't really risk much if you're ready to block/tech.

12. I am often infuriated that as a ninja, Valentine does not have a long flowing scarf. Like really Alex/Mike what the fuck is going on here fix this shit ASAP.
 
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ummm Cynical if I recall correctly you use LnL assist. If you're complaining about damage, you coulda learned my Val + LnL combos that I've been doing since early this year. Hell Gllt was dumping a bunch of them that do 8k+ in the combo thread not too long ago.

Honestly I think there's some untapped potential in Val.
s.hp can ruin the opponent's spacing since she takes a step back on startup (great for baiting throws/throw techs, also eat it parasouls that like to rush in at the start of matches), backdash jump cancel j.hk adc pressure is cool, and there's green vial to convert off of any random hit. And what do we do with all that undizzy we get from lvl2/lvl3 green vial? When's lag vial bandwagon?
 
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BDC IAD j.HK (and j.HP) is fucking amazing.
There aren't enough Vals that believe in the power of the lag vial and at times I feel I'm the only one.
Also there aren't enough Vals that believe in the power of the counter. TOD teams of 2 and 3 in one combo now from that shit.

Seriously...try PBGC into Counter Venom into a TOD....that shit will put lead in your pencil!
 
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Mike_Z said:
Val HK bypass lets Cerebella convert off Diamond Drop or Dynamo (F+HP+Val), lets Parasoul convert off midscreen pillar->bikes on anyone the bikes don't OTG (Val, dash, F+HP), lets you put extra high-damage knockback moves in your combos, etc,
Cilia Slide does all this, while also hitting low and breaking armor. Granted H Bypass does 250 more damage.
Mike_Z said:
and her throw assist stands them up.
Is that really that useful?
 
Like all of Val's normals multihit or you press the same button twice for another attack. She forces you to pushblock properly and even then she might bait you into dashing when you wanted pushblock. She eats armor because of this.

If everyone kills in 2 openings, there no difference in 51% damage or 75%.
 
Fedora_Ninja said:
ummm Cynical if I recall correctly you use LnL assist. If you're complaining about damage, you coulda learned my Val + LnL combos that I've been doing since early this year. Hell Gllt was dumping a bunch of them that do 8k+ in the combo thread not too long ago.

Honestly I think there's some untapped potential in Val.
s.hp can ruin the opponent's spacing since she takes a step back on startup (great for baiting throws/throw techs, also eat it parasouls that like to rush in at the start of matches), backdash jump cancel j.hk adc pressure is cool, and there's green vial to convert off of any random hit. And what do we do with all that undizzy we get from lvl2/lvl3 green vial? When's lag vial bandwagon?
I completely agree with you. I honestly think she is really underdeveloped (especially her reset cross up game cause its ridiculously good) And that s. hp is great cause you can kara that into cross which is pretty useful. And lets not forget the god like potential of lv 3 poison on combos (SO MUCH DAMAGE).

With regards to this claim that val is bad I will humbly disagree she has way to many tools to suck eg:
God like ADC potential
Convert off of air scaps
Speed of cross ups
Speed of mix ups
Air Projectile for zoning
Ludicrously fast grab which leads to a full combo (although its scaled -_-)
Sexy DHC options with EKG
Decent raw tag
Great neutral pokes
Grown ass man combos
Also have you seen those tits? (Its a joke (pause for laughter) -_-)
 
Mr Peck said:
Edit: or to give another example, Juggernaut wasn't "utterly imbalancing" in Marvel vs Capcom 2 despite dealing insane damage with the powerup glitch. Why didn't people just pair him with an assist that magically solves all of his neutral game issues and dominate tournaments?
I'm gonna give an example of this just because I wanna link this video. Go to 4:25 for an example of the damage you can get from BB Hood with powered up Juggernaut. It's funny:


If damage was much more important in team/assist games than it was in other games, surely something like this would have dominated.
 
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Val needs no outright buffs. Changes to overall gameplay would be nice. Unless it's an outright nerf to something that is completely reactable, then that's just wrong
 
Mr. X said:
If everyone kills in 2 openings, there no difference in 51% damage or 75%.
Incorrect, because undizzy means that early resets are mandatory, so the amount of damage you do in your first few chains matters a lot. And Val's is abysmal.

@Mr Peck , why play Juggernaut when you can play Sentinel or Mags and have infinites anyways?

(EDIT: also, LOL @ everyone saying "she's just underdiscovered!". It's not like she was the most played character for most of 2013 or anything. She just sucks, and everyone dropped her when they realized that.)
 
Yeah Val is totes the worst. Can confirm. She just tanks the damage for my Bella. Def a bad character.
/snark

- muh assists

Sure, you could say that if you only use the assists that everyone else uses. Course, if I get in a poison vial with my Bella BnB, you get some results (1:1)
level 1 poison with Bella BnB = 8.3k (10.2k with DHC into Flatliner)
level 2 " " = 8.6k (10.8k " ")
level 3 " " = 9.3k (11.7k " ")

- muh damage

You could, I dunno, use Val's mobility to get in resets 4 dayze and then those not so damaging strings suddenly add up to a lot of damage? I dunno, that's just me tho.

- muh anti-airs

Personal opinion, but if you're legitimately relying on Valentine for anti-air options, then you're kinda playing the character wrong. Besides, you could at least try s.hk since that's got a pretty big hitbox going on. Other than that, just be patient and block, yo. Cause last time I checked, ninjas aren't known for being overly aggressive.

- muh reversals

Again, I don't think you should be relying on reversals with someone like Valentine, but she does have EKG Flatliner for those resets. and if the person's jump reset happy, you got ground scalpels with invincible startup.

-
Stuff said:
This is all I know Val for:


(I think a lot characters with disjointed normals and good pressure are good. I put valentine in that spot.)

Because I can't let this keep going, I'm gonna break this down right now. Right before the Flatliner gets mashed out by P2, P1 uses s.hp. Ordinarily, if P1 was doing anything but s.hp, they'd get hit because of the proximity. However, P1 used s.hp, and this move moves Valentine backwards a bit. The fact that this happened gives P1 enough spacing to be able to go right into scalpels. Scalpels has invincibility, so there's that, and the scalpels themselves hit on contact. By the point P1 and P2 are together, the invincibility on EKG has worn off and you get this:

2014-10-24_00001.jpg


2014-10-24_00004.jpg

This literally took less than a minute to debunk, c'mon guys
The combination of invincibility when Scalpels go out and the hitboxes of the bottom scalpel and P2 Valentine's foot gets you the hit, and since P2 Val's player point is behind, it counts as a crossup.

So yeah, there you go.

TLDR: Val really isn't that bad, try to experiment, please learn the character before talking, and never ever ever use ground scalpels unless in dire situations.
 
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Cynical said:
Incorrect, because undizzy means that early resets are mandatory, so the amount of damage you do in your first few chains matters a lot. And Val's is abysmal.

@Mr Peck , why play Juggernaut when you can play Sentinel or Mags and have infinites anyways?

If one character does 51% damage max undizzy and the other does 75% damage max undizzy, do they both not need to 2 combos to kill?

What infinite does Sent have? Mags doesnt kill in 1 touch. Juggernaut can kill in way less hits/openings (Mike Z played a team around Juggs high damage). He was still bested by lower damage characters.
 
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Mr. X said:
If one character does 51% damage max undizzy and the other does 75% damage max undizzy, do they both not need to 2 combos to kill?
Yeah, as though anyone is going to finish a combo against a full-health character, instead of going for resets.

In reality, both characters are going to go for resets, and the 51% damage max undizzy character is going to need a lot more of them.
 
Cynical said:
Incorrect, because undizzy means that early resets are mandatory, so the amount of damage you do in your first few chains matters a lot. And Val's is abysmal.

(EDIT: also, LOL @ everyone saying "she's just underdiscovered!". It's not like she was the most played character for most of 2013 or anything. She just sucks, and everyone dropped her when they realized that.)

Early resets or burst baits/mixups. Not to mention resets somewhere in the middle and just riding undizzy, which Val excels at. And again, vial damage is a completely separate and unscaled source of damage that works outside of (and with) combo damage regardless of Undizzy. That was a huge part of Omni's ToDs when he was in his prime, and no other character has something comparable.
 
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Converting of assists: yes. Converting off of optimal starters: not so much. More importantly, people complaining about val have yet to say anything about how air to air, val can be reaction air grabbed out of her moves, even in between the 3 hits of j.hk. However, most importantly these moves would be too good otherwise so this only helps my idea that she is solid mid
 
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