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Why do some people consider Valentine a bad character?

Cynical said:
Yeah, as though anyone is going to finish a combo against a full-health character, instead of going for resets.

In reality, both characters are going to go for resets, and the 51% damage max undizzy character is going to need a lot more of them.

Please learn the character before complaining about her damage output.

cloudKing211 said:
val can be reaction air grabbed out of her moves, even in between the 3 hits of j.hk. However, most importantly these moves would be too good otherwise so this only helps my idea that she is solid mid

You're too close when using. j.HK. It's a godlike move but it does have that weakness. Try something like j.LP or throw when someone is too close air to air.
 
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My video got myth buster'd. I love you people.

Also Valentine is far from bad. She's my second fav character and the point of my new favorite pocket team.
And if you think moving her to a pocket team means I think she's bad, you dunno how I play son.

The girl is sick. Val/Double/Bella is strong.
 
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Her damage IS pretty crap without vials preloaded but give her an assist that lets her load a vial and helps her in neutral, something kind of like a flying butt attack, and that problem is kind of gone.
 
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Shin ATproof said:
Please learn the character before complaining about her damage output.



You're too close when using. j.HK. It's a godlike move but it does have that weakness. Try something like j.LP or throw when someone is too close air to air.
I know why I'm getting grabbed lol. Just trying to let people know vals moves are not op or terrible. Thanks for the advice though
 
cLK cMK1 cHP jLK1 ADC jMP1 jHP rejump jLP jMP1 jHP adc delay jHK Shuriken/PVial dash sLP3 sMPall cMK2 sHK3 otg HBypass EKG (Shuriken 6k, Vial 7k, UNIVERSAL IIRC)


There, I met the standard for Val damage AND I made it truly universal. 95% sure this is universal. Really, truly. Yes, it's odd. Bend standards to meet them.

Got a green vial? Of course you don't. Hahahahhahahahah well you should.


Universal. 7k+ level one green. Maybe some jMP timing adjustments on Double and...?
Free tag to Double. You'll probably get in with catheads, but situational is situational.

What can we do with bomber and HLnL?
Anything we want really.


Damage is in the corner! Carry them there with green vial combos and bomber, side swap back into the corner with HBypass+Assist starters, what do you get?


What can HBypass do for you?


This one is outdated but relevant in terms of route theory.

A lot!

Val can have damage if you're creative, she can have universal combos if you're creative and still reach 6k without a vial and 7k with, she can hit 7k with character specific combos without a vial, she can break 7k easy in the corner, she can do buku shit with assists and her HBypass assist is the most godlike combo extender.

Stahp.
 
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This took me like literally 2 minutes to come up with, probably some optimization to be had.
 
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Cynical said:
(EDIT: also, LOL @ everyone saying "she's just underdiscovered!". It's not like she was the most played character for most of 2013 or anything. She just sucks, and everyone dropped her when they realized that.)
Aren't you like the same guy who said Valentine vs Peacock was 0 - 10 when TJ our best Peacock puts Bella first vs Valentine to avoid Pea vs Val?

I've read your diary and posts in the tier thread and...

I've seen you play too and...

You're not abusing anything Valentine is good at.

And holy shit lmao if you think people have discovered everything a character can do at this stage of the games life.
Only recently did Peacock become bottom.
Only recently some Parasouls do TK tear, and stopped doing jHP in neutral.
(Also Parasoul is dropping too)
Squigly finally has some good players.
Bella is on every team now.
Valentine can't down back + assist for free wins...
Etc...

Not aimed at you:

Things are changing, Val's tier placement plummeted (controversially) after people stopped making "Omg how do I beat updo assist" threads because now Val has to do things other than down back and call assist.
And a lot of them are doing new things! there's good shit from Outlaw and Cloudking etc but then there are others still slow to the draw.
You have to make good decisions and move well in neutral and you're rewarded with godlike positioning every time.

There's a crisis right now though about effort vs reward though so maybe everyone should just pick Fukua and Filia and throw in LnLH until people learn to play against it. #koppa
 
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The only buff I wish Valentine would get is the ability to throw the vial at different angles during combos by choosing which button you press so that I could throw one at a straight forward angle during a combo instead of a downward one sometimes. @Mike_Z

Ready to get yelled at :'^)
 
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Wouldn't that look weird because she has no animation for different angles?
 
Sooooo what you're saying is to give Val some soul fist angles.
TK shuriken would be the new crazy thing
 
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Lem said:
Aren't you like the same guy who said Valentine vs Peacock was 0 - 10 when TJ our best Peacock puts Bella first vs Valentine to avoid Pea vs Val?

I've read your diary and posts in the tier thread and...

I've seen you play too and...

You're not abusing anything Valentine is good at.

And holy shit lmao if you think people have discovered everything a character can do at this stage of the games life.
Only recently did Peacock become bottom.
Only recently some Parasouls do TK tear, and stopped doing jHP in neutral.
(Also Parasoul is dropping too)
Squigly finally has some good players.
Bella is on every team now.
Valentine can't down back + assist for free wins...
Etc...

Not aimed at you:

Things are changing, Val's tier placement plummeted (controversially) after people stopped making "Omg how do I beat updo assist" threads because now Val has to do things other than down back and call assist.
And a lot of them are doing new things! there's good shit from Outlaw and Cloudking etc but then there are others still slow to the draw.
You have to make good decisions and move well in neutral and you're rewarded with godlike positioning every time.

There's a crisis right now though about effort vs reward though so maybe everyone should just pick Fukua and Filia and throw in LnLH until people learn to play against it. #koppa
Yeah, people are "discovering" things... let's ignore the fact that Updo and Pillar assist calls were nerfed THREE FUCKING TIMES IN THE LAST YEAR, amirite?

People haven't "discovered" the way to play against those things; those things were nerfed because they basically couldn't be played against.
 
Almost getting 7k with a late green vial in what looks pretty universal. So close. :c Help @Shin ATproof

 
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all i want in life was counter to break armor and a bigger range on her air throw, i have one of those things and now i want the other c:
 
Cynical said:
Yeah, people are "discovering" things... let's ignore the fact that Updo and Pillar assist calls were nerfed THREE FUCKING TIMES IN THE LAST YEAR, amirite?

People haven't "discovered" the way to play against those things; those things were nerfed because they basically couldn't be played against.

Bullshit. You throw the point man when calling Pillar/Updo/AnyDP or bait the assist call and punish it accordingly. The reason it was nerfed was the reward was too great when it did hit. People still get bopped for that shit because people still don't throw enough or don't punish hard enough.

agent13 said:
all i want in life was counter to break armor and a bigger range on her air throw, i have one of those things and now i want the other c:

IIRC Countervenom is suppose to armor break and is coming...unless it's already in the beta...haven't checked lately.
 
I don't believe dp assists were nerfed at all. there were beta experiments but they were reverted.

there were assist nerfs but that applied to every assist.
all I remember is this

Starting a combo off of an Ensemble starts the combo with 66% damage scaling. If the Ensemble counter hits, it scales the combo to 90%.

that and snapping an assist would put it away for like 300f or something.
 
Updo and Pillar having their blockstun reduced by 2 frames, higher damage against assists, and assist lockout were all things specifically designed to weaken "downback behind a DP" play.
 
Cynical said:
Updo and Pillar having their blockstun reduced by 2 frames, higher damage against assists, and assist lockout were all things specifically designed to weaken "downback behind a DP" play.

you forgot combos started by an assist being scaled down heavily unless it was counterhit, at which point it's scaled to 90%.

options like throw, countercall, and such still exist/existed.
 
I don't play her, so this may all be bunk... but my view:

She's not as bad as a lot of people say.
- She is easily the most mobile character in the game, and she is frustrating to catch even by my PW that has almost 100% mobility in the air.
- She can easily turn her air defense into a pretty awesome offense while not having block restricted like the other air mobile character in the game.
- Her damage is low, but in a game in which any character can kill with two hits... that's not as big a problem as people say.
- Her reset game is horrifying. In a game in which resets rule... this is not nothing.
- Her jump-ins are scary. j.hp... which side do I block on??? No one ever knows!

Her lack of reversal is a problem, and her lack of decent assists too. They do pigeonhole her into a fairly predictable niche, but in that niche, she performs admirably. But she's not the only one. If anything, for my money, Val should be looked to as the example of great character design. A good character with clearly defined weaknesses (Fukua should be looked at as terrible character design, but I digress).
 
Shin ATproof said:
IIRC Countervenom is suppose to armor break and is coming...unless it's already in the beta...haven't checked lately.

It didn't for a long long time until recently, so i used to get really mad when painwheel would do j.[HP] at me and it would just miss and boom two meters gone
 
Shin ATproof said:
IIRC Countervenom is suppose to armor break and is coming...unless it's already in the beta...haven't checked lately.

yeah mike changed it a while back

hence why i never tested if this was actually something that BB could super cancel out of in time.

 
Cynical said:
Updo and Pillar having their blockstun reduced by 2 frames, higher damage against assists, and assist lockout were all things specifically designed to weaken "downback behind a DP" play.
note that these not only affect dps (save for one) but EVERY OTHER ASSIST.

please don't call them dp nerfs if they aren't they only thing targeted. affected

so they got nerfed (edit: specifically) ONCE
 
sir/mam that was quite rude
fukua is a gorilla because she makes the game dumb and ugly
 
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Cynical said:
(EDIT: also, LOL @ everyone saying "she's just underdiscovered!". It's not like she was the most played character for most of 2013 or anything.
Uh, she wasn't? Double probably was (people still have no idea how to play Double btw), or maybe Filia (how many people have an actual Filia neutral?).
Val players were Duck, TOOD, Omni (when he played), mpgame and that's about it? Maybe missing someone, but definitely not the most played character by any stretch.
Kind of logical that Val has never been and will never be a much-played character, because she really only works on point, which limits her team selection greatly and eg forces someone who wants to play Parasoul point to pick someone else, even if he were to like Val.

Base Example; EVO2013 Top8:
5: Filia
4: Double
2: Bella, Fortune, Parasoul, Peacock
1: Valentine
0: Painwheel
That's roughly how the general distribution of characters was.

Btw even if she WAS the most played character back then (she wasn't) - SDE was an entirely different game, and discovering stuff about Val back then (eg that Jumparound Assistcall is Godlike) doesn't necessarily translate to how Val operates nowadays; the "First Order Optimal Strategy" of "I let my assist play the game" was so strong that people didn't really have to bother learning other things.

Val has a certain way she "has to" play, which some people (Cynical) apparently don't get, has some distinct weaknesses and some huge strenghts. She's pretty okay? Too lazy for more.
Her main issue is that she's the most godawful boring looking character - both by herself (would need some cat-ears to fill out the last edgy teenager fetish) and by her moves.. nothing looks fun; everything is a snoozefest - especially great when sitting through one of her 50 second corner combos zzzz

Random Note: I don't really understand the complaint about weight specific combos; Valentine is the only character which regularly scores Doublesnap Kills against me after landing a happy birthday somewhere in the middle of the stage.
Did I pick a team where Vals combos just happen to work, or are her "corner carry" combos and her "high damage" ones different choices, with only the latter having issues against differing character weights?
 
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gllt said:
Almost getting 7k with a late green vial in what looks pretty universal. So close. :c Help @Shin ATproof


Thaaaaat's pretty fucking tight bruh...like take out the c.MK in the beginning and see how it scales other than that...ain't much you can add that I can think of right now.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Her main issue is that she's the most godawful boring looking character - both by herself (would need some cat-ears to fill out the last edgy teenager fetish) and by her moves..

Ninja scarf and glasses please.

nothing looks fun; everything is a snoozefest - especially great when sitting through one of her 50 second corner combos zzzz

Just wait until Eliza starts seeing more play. Her full undizzy combos can be submitted to Cannes.
 
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Hilary said:
Just wait until Eliza starts seeing more play. Her full undizzy combos can be submitted to Cannes.
I agree that Liza is also pretty snooze, but at least she has some pretty moves where she snaps her finger and birdman does footdive, or s.MP looks pretty nice, and LK.Swirl into s.LP is a nice continuation etc; her problem mostly lies in length.
Valentine is boring as shit even if she only does 10 hit combos, cus the hits just.. don't feel right. Everything looks bland. And shit is so deadass repetitive ;_; She's sitting in front of even Barrel Loop.

When's Doublejump combos becoming optimal?
 
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Cynical said:
Yeah, people are "discovering" things... let's ignore the fact that Updo and Pillar assist calls were nerfed THREE FUCKING TIMES IN THE LAST YEAR, amirite?
Yes people are discovering things what the fuck lol.
Maybe you personally aren't?

ALL assists were nerfed.
I still don't even think it was needed.

Getting hit with an assist is like getting throw now (50%) unless you got read and hit a button.
Cynical said:
People haven't "discovered" the way to play against those things; those things were nerfed because they basically couldn't be played against.
That's a weird way to say "I'm a scrub please nerf"

Stop projecting.
You're really biased when it comes to what is good and what isn't, because anything you personally struggle against is broken!

DP assists is easy to punish too!
You let your assist be your jump in and you yourself block and slide into them.
People are just barely starting to understand the idea of counter calls even now.
(OMG DISCOVERIES)

More new discoveries from small to big:
- Bike xx Sniper vs Peacock.
- Parry + Call assist, delay into 2LK OS vs mash on wake up as Big Band.
- Projectile OKI with Avery (Dubs + Pea) to beat any non invincible from frame 1.
- Burst baits to create hard knockdowns a from SKD's.
- Painwheel dash assist with SSJ.
- Alpha counters to beat safe DHC's and punish cat heads.
- PBGC is a whole new thing people are using more.
- s.MK(?) xx Brass H for full screen vs Peacock.
- LK Giant Step fake outs (Still only Mike)

Like do you even lab?

Fuck off with that the game is fully evolved thing, that's crazy talk dude.
Look at Peacock recently!
New tech, new combos, burst baits, set ups, assist usage and style of play, neutral concepts and tier placement,
ALL changing constantly.
Maybe Peacock will go back to being a joke in a year.
Maybe people will stop mashing super as an answer to everything.
Who knows. Things change. Adapt.
 
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A lot of these are neat ideas. I never even thought I could do them!
I love you Lem.
 
Lem said:
ALL assists were nerfed.
I still don't even think it was needed.
It waaaaaaas.

More new discoveries from small to big:
- Bike xx Sniper vs Peacock.
- Parry + Call assist, delay into 2LK OS vs mash on wake up as Big Band.
- Projectile OKI with Avery (Dubs + Pea) to beat any non invincible from frame 1.
- Burst baits to create hard knockdowns a from SKD's.
- Painwheel dash assist with SSJ.
- Alpha counters to beat safe DHC's and punish cat heads.
- PBGC is a whole new thing people are using more.
- s.MK(?) xx Brass H for full screen vs Peacock.
- LK Giant Step fake outs (Still only Mike)
What exactly is "New" in your book?

Maybe Peacock will go back to being a joke in a year.
There were ~certain people~ who called those buffs out as completely unnecessary the moment they happened :~
 
Eu is ahead in tech. ;_;
We're stuck in soloBella Stone Age sometimes.
Woofly my booiii
 
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IsaVulpes said:
What exactly is "New" in your book?

Anything that doesn't yet have a good amount of popular visibility in play. The majority of the SG player base is very slow to adopt new technology or force a progression of the meta. Too many players are content in just playing without learning, or being content with their current inefficient playstyle because it's 'good enough'.
 
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Those Peacock buffs were a terrible idea. As far as I understand it, it was to compensate for the SOID nerf which was hardly a nerf at all turning a brainless move into a mostly brainless move.
 
Stuff said:
A lot of these are neat ideas. I never even thought I could do them!
I love you Lem.
Oh shush :'(
It's probably going to be all new to Cynical anyways.
 
The most I feel Valentine is sometimes is boring but not hardly as boring as Filia at all, who is almost the queen of boring for me. But that's subjective.

And I have a lot of fun with Valentine. I just get tired of the same old stuff and this is coming from someone who does a LOT of stuff with her. Hence my idea about the vial throw direction change, it's mostly for combo video material. Ahuehuehuehue. But Stuff` is right, would look weird without the proper animation probably.

She's a solid character. She really is. She has great pressure, great mobility, great resets, acceptable damage, SLIDING KNOCKDOWNNN DO YOU KNOW HOW GOOD THAT IS, an amazing ground throw, sHK is hilarious, really cool kara tricks, and a totally unused unexplored orange vial whats up with that anyways
 
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hi lets have opinions on the internet

val is fun like a GSXR she's all over the place and when she gets a hit, the forward carry momentum of her combos is satisfying as fuck.

filia is fun like a CBR where she handles corners well and is constantly changing angles in/out.

painwheel is the dodge caravan of skullgirls and lmfao if you try to get crunk in it
 
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