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Why do some people consider Valentine a bad character?

Well i guess people consider her bad for her damage output and cause she doesn't have an invincible DP or any invincible/armor move for that matter, but for me, she is great.

Jumping back with j.HK is so easy to hit confirm into a full combo or cancelled into a dead cross, air dash, j.MP for more pressure. iad j.HP can cross up which is ridiculous some times (not as good as Filia's iad j.HK, but still) solid pressure, amazing grabs, very scary reset game specially with her lag vial, definitely the most underrated move in the game, her countervenom is so hype and the fact that she can decide when to throw the syringe now makes her so much better. Also, iad j.MP pressure all day against people that use armor assists like those are the second coming of Jesus Christ, Val multi hit moves break armor like its nothing.

Granted, she's way better with an assist on her back but i think she's awesome anyway and btw, she has a bubblehead nurse palette, she's just perfect, accept it.
 
edit: nvm we should probably take para things elsewhere is-val-good thread is probably very serious
 
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Mike_Z said:
@mcpeanuts
HK Bypass lets Big Band combo two SSJs without using sound stun! Mash assist and then do the 2nd super when they hit the ground.

Oh right and people skipped the fact that you can't hit the body or limbs on j.HK.
That means he can do 3 with sound stun?

:oooooooo
 
As someone who regularly plays against Val players, I'm really not looking forward to these changes.
 
Mr. X said:
That means he can do 3 with sound stun?

:oooooooo

Not quite, because they hit the ground before the bypass hits them, letting them tech before you can hit with giant step the next time. You can get 3 without sound stun however if you're supering out of the corner, because it puts them in the corner and allows enough time to ssj again without sound stun or assist, then you can do the bypass thing after that. I think they need to be a little higher than normal for the second ssj to hit without letting them hit the ground, so it kinda requires them to be in the air or you need to launch/beat extend which uses sound stun I think.
[/mostly relevant bandchat]

Uhhh these val changes look interesting I don't know a lot about this character but from what I've seen on the changes they make her less boring to watch so that's cool.

Someone correct me then delete this post I can't be seen talking about gameplay.
 
Bypass change is unnecessary. It looks cool but to the people who are going to pick up Valentine now, it's not like she got any ridiculous buffs (Not from what it looks like anyway)

The QoL changes are welcome although don't affect me much. I don't use that wonky s.MP catch combo.

One QoL I sorta want to see is expanding c.HP's hitbox inwards towards Valentine because there are some instances where you accidentally cross yourself up and the other character slides down Valentine's arm and c.HP whiffs.

Also maybe make the damage floor of Scalpels higher? At point blank it barely does any damage so most of the time if you need to kill you'll want to DHC or use Flatliner. Maybe increasing it by 200-400, idk.

Just thinking out loud.
 
Ok I didn't read this whole thread so I don't know what was already said but here is my input. Val's damage output isn't really that bad. The light weight bnb I stole from duckator does about 6500 1v1 but it corner to corner carries. The heavy weight bnb does about 7100. Using assists to load vials inbetween (or just having one at the ready) allow you to break 7600+. Maybe not max damage but i've only gotten 6800 with parasoul midscreen and 7000 with double in the corner. Val's bnbs are character specific but I never felt like that really made her low damage.
Her neutral is pretty strong. It's kinda like peacocks in the sense she uses projectiles and her mobility to make her hard to catch. The fact that she can be at so many different angles ( as shown by isavulpes and khaosmuffins) gives her the ability to pretty much dominate most matchups. Speaking of matchups, her only real bad one is painwheel. She does pretty good against peacock and fukua(albeit still annoying to deal with). She doesn't have a dp, but I personally believe having a lot of air mobility and an air super make her better than parasoul.
Val's mixup and block pressure really isn't that great though. I do like being able to end a combo in a sliding knockdown and tagging to someone with better pressure and mixup though.

That's all I got for now. If I think of anything else I'll post more(or not).
 
My only complaint for Val is that her L Dead Cross doesn't hit on certain characters after an air grab in the corner. I also can't seen to land a vial after an air grab on certain characters either.
 
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ashxu said:
Bypass change is unnecessary. It looks cool but to the people who are going to pick up Valentine now, it's not like she got any ridiculous buffs (Not from what it looks like anyway)
Looking cooler is completely necessary, and was the entire point. (^.^)
A bit more damage is a bit more damage.
Lag vial and counter buffs are also useful, people seem to miss the idea that buffing moves you don't use makes them moves you should use more...

ashxu said:
One QoL I sorta want to see is expanding c.HP's hitbox inwards towards Valentine because there are some instances where you accidentally cross yourself up and the other character slides down Valentine's arm and c.HP whiffs.
Vid or combo notation example?

Fedora_Ninja said:
My only complaint for Val is that her L Dead Cross doesn't hit on certain characters after an air grab in the corner. I also can't seen to land a vial after an air grab on certain characters either.
Vid or character list? "Certain characters" doesn't help me fix it. The angle of L cross and syringe is changed so whenever that update happens maybe it's fixed...
 
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ashxu said:
One QoL I sorta want to see is expanding c.HP's hitbox inwards towards Valentine because there are some instances where you accidentally cross yourself up and the other character slides down Valentine's arm and c.HP whiffs.
The techs, man
The techs
 
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Colossi said:
The techs, man
The techs
That one is never gonna hit no matter what I do to the hitbox, they're already completely behind you when it goes active.
 
I'm not asking to extend the hitbox.
Also, in the video is badly executed.
I like that cross a lot and works with pretty much everyone, even big band with the right timing.
 
Mike_Z said:
Vid or character list? "Certain characters" doesn't help me fix it. The angle of L cross and syringe is changed so whenever that update happens maybe it's fixed...

Here's a list. I may be an idiot with shit execution, but these are the characters I couldn't get consistent with for some reason.

Eliza - Corner, vial
Fortune - corner Dead cross + vial, midscreen vial
Squigly - midscreen vial hits, but needs to change timing
Filia/Fukua - corner Dead cross + vial, midscreen vial
Cerebella - Corner Dead cross + Vial, midscreen vial, midscreen dead cross requires early cancel from throw


Also this seems relevant. If anyone bitched about needing to spend meter to convert off an air grab, lab harder.

got it to +8 once, dunno the reason why/how. Yes it works midscreen, but I don't have a full list on who it works on and doesn't work on. Easiest on Double and Band. Band doesn't require an air dash. Hitting with a green or orange vial would be great in this situation for obvious reasons.
 
While you're looking at Val, could you take a look at her s.LP, too? At point-blank range, at least one of the 3 LPs will whiff on Double, Filia/Fukua, Val herself, and Peacock (depending on where she is in her crouch animation).

Can't wait to play around with these changes!
 
ashxu said:
Bypass change is unnecessary. It looks cool but
Looking cooler was pretty much the only buff Valentine needed.
Now we only need to kill all the old combos so the Bypass stuff is mandatory, and the char will be fun to fight against~
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Looking cooler was pretty much the only buff Valentine needed.
Now we only need to kill all the old combos so the Bypass stuff is mandatory, and the char will be fun to fight against~
Sure, let's make the bypass combos do 30% more damage than the old ones so no one will use them.
 
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who needs damage when you have style
you don't even need 2 bypasses in air midscreen, just be able to combo off of them.
 
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Outlaw_Spike said:
s.LP
[snip]
(depending on where she is in her crouch animation).
Don't use s.LP vs crouching, then.

Colossi said:
I'm not asking to extend the hitbox.
I meant, that setup will always be a viable whiff even if I were to fix it.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Looking cooler is completely necessary, and was the entire point. (^.^)
A bit more damage is a bit more damage.
Lag vial and counter buffs are also useful, people seem to miss the idea that buffing moves you don't use makes them moves you should use more...


Vid or combo notation example?
Some combos against Filia and stuff can do the weird cross up but now that I've played with it a bit more it seems like it's more the fact that Valentine takes a step forward so it just completely whiffs. I can't remember the combos anymore because I scrapped them for that reason.

Also yeah I like the lvl2 buff, forgot about that.
 
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destruction_adv said:
Sure, let's make the bypass combos do 30% more damage than the old ones so no one will use them.
The old ones have corner carry, so there will always be a reason to chose them.

I do think it is cool that she gets the option to go for damage instead of corner off a confirm if she wants, now, though. Not that she needs any buffs.
 
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ashxu said:
One QoL I sorta want to see is expanding c.HP's hitbox inwards towards Valentine because there are some instances where you accidentally cross yourself up and the other character slides down Valentine's arm and c.HP whiffs.


Mike_Z said:
Vid or combo notation example?



Up to you.

Val can:
  • cMK so that they fall on its active frames (not optimal CH/undizzy and subsequent cHP launches them higher/weirder than where a normal cHP would've put them)
  • backdash > doublejump(9) jHP jHK (optimal damage:undizzy but not universal, and difficult to get between the burst and them landing from burst when midscreen)
Val + Bomber/Cerecopter/Whatever can:
  • jHK + Assist (scaling considerations, requires assist)

I remember you kicking around a bursts-don't-cause-preblock idea for a while which could just as easily fix this one, but I'm sure there's combo lab monsters having problems with this too.
 
Last edited:
I'd personally just do an s.LP conversion off of a midscreen burst bait. It's not optimal but it is something.
 
Fortune has a similar problem (after a burst) and I'm not sure if this applies to Val but I just backdash then 2hp because there's enough time after a burst.

EDIT: Perhaps a fairly delayed 2hp could do it?
 
cool val experiments. They in the beta yet?
 
Hilary said:
video + other stuff
Launching them right away would throw they too damn high
Also, this is an option
 
So when val buffs come in I can finally test if fortune buffs are even helpful or not. ...Right?
 
Stuff said:
So when val buffs come in I can finally test if fortune buffs are even helpful or not. ...Right?

The additional hits with the head are annoying. Kid Panda was trying them out last Salty.
 
Also Valentine Buffs.

It's really nice being able to combo from any hit in the air now. Countervenom on an enemy too high in the air to combo will be a thing of the past.

Getting upwards of 6.8~7.7K no poison 1 bar (1v1) using new Bypass routes....pretty funny shit.
 
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Shin ATproof said:
Also Valentine Buffs.

It's really nice being able to combo from any hit in the air now. Countervenom on an enemy too high in the air to combo will be a thing of the past.

Getting upwards of 6.8~7.7K no poison 1 bar (1v1) using new Bypass routes....pretty funny shit.
its in now? OMW
 
cloudKing211 said:
its in now? OMW

Not quite. Shin was at the UGC thing on Saturday night playing around with the changes. It'll probably be in the next beta update, whenever that is. Hang tight. :D
 
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Whoa what happened to page 5 of this thread? Every time I click Chrome freaks out and says it contains malware.
 
If I knew Val was a "bad" character from the beggining I never would had spent over 300 hours playing it.

I picked one character from day one and just kept playing it because I thought they where all balanced.

I am committed to Val now.

I don't want all those hours going to waste,

Oh w3ll...
 
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