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Why not 3/5?

Daemyx

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Why do we still run 2/3 for tournaments?
SG is a fast enough game that we could do 3/5. Is there a real reason why we run 2/3 besides "that how it is" or "that's how mvc2 was"?
Since the game doesn't need buttons checks and has all the awesome features of tournament mode, why don't we take advantage of that and run more matches?
If you do have a good reason, please enlighten me.

@CaioLugon back me up mate.
 
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We still run finals as 3/5.
 
I also have that question, given that we finish a top 8 in half the time MvC3 does.
 
Although I haven't ever organised tournaments, as I see it, there are 2 variables that effect whether a game is played in 2/3 or 3/5 sets:
  • The time taken for a game to finish
  • How "random" or "abare" said game is
SG is kind of fast, true, but it isn't Super Turbo fast. Running an entire tournament with 3/5 sets would increase the time a by a large margin.

For the second point, let's consider UMVC3 (which I believe runs all its games in 3/5), where a single stray hit can be converted a lot of the time to a dead character. That's 3-5 hits for a match to be decided, basically (as long as no-one drops their combos). As a result, there's less time spent playing neutral - the part that requires inter-player skill, which is what a tournament wants to reward. This means there's more variance in terms of who can win a single match. The more matches played, the less this variance affects the outcome.
Though SG is heavily based on resets and mixups, you still need to score a clean hit in the game multiple times in order to win a match. There's definitely many chances for the defender to bring the game back to neutral and resume playing the game on their terms. This makes it less "random", so it reduces the necessity of 2/3.
 
In Chicago, we actually ran an entire local tourney as 3/5, recently. Frankly, it adds more time than you think. If I had to estimate, I's say it increased the amount of time by 50-75%. So, if your tourney would've taken 2 hours, it'll take 3-4 hours as a 3/5 event.

I say it's feasible for majors, where everybody knows we're all there for the weekend. For me, though, I can barely spare the time to attend my own monthly, so increasing the time at all would actually impact my ability to attend it. I don't want to have to leave early 'cause locals start taking 4+ hours.

At a very minimum, I think we should move to Top 8 (at larger events) being 3/5.
 
That is the kind of thing what I wanted to hear. Fair point, it may be stretching a little to have every single match in a local 3/5. But I do think is doable for majors to be all 3/5 or at least Top 8.
 
I would rather 3/5 if at the very least because it's more games for people that go 0-2 and traveled far for a tournament
 
??? Ok then.
 
High level Skullgirls runs very fast, in a major you could still have the whole top 16 being 3/5 and not make it very long, for comparison, on summer jam SG top 8 took around 1:10, UMVC3 was around 1:40 and USF4 took over 2:10.
 
I would suggest 3/5 only for top-8's.

In pools you see a LOT of one sided 2-0's and I don't really see benefit in extending the sets there. Maybe for finals of a pool you could do 3/5.
 
In Chicago, we actually ran an entire local tourney as 3/5, recently. Frankly, it adds more time than you think. If I had to estimate, I's say it increased the amount of time by 50-75%. So, if your tourney would've taken 2 hours, it'll take 3-4 hours as a 3/5 event.
That's... literally the math.

Like, FT2 means sets last 2-3 games. FT3 means sets last 3-5 games. It's a baseline 50% increase in tournament length, although the variance is such that anytime somebody comes back from a 0-2 set (Which is the entire point of 3/5, right? That's one of the two precise reasons to switch to 3/5, the other being coming back from 1-2 sets) the length of the set increases by 150%. Holy shit! A 2-hour tournament extends by a minimum of an hour, and a maximum of 3 extra hours. Not saying that's likely; just saying that's a potentiality.

As a TO, my question for you is, "Are you asking to play more games, or are you asking for the top players to win more often?" In the former case, you can just play casuals. In the latter case, we encounter a specific problem that is highlighted best by the difference between Japanese and US tournaments-- tournament volatility. You see, we can do every set 3/5 and even do triple or quadruple elimination (or even round-robin!) but on the macro scale all that does is make the best players more apparent. The point of 2/3 and double elimination is to allow room for good players to make mistakes and also allow bad players a longer chance to enjoy the experience (which are good things in moderation), but we do so at the cost of time and drama. It might not matter much to you personally now, but if you are a player who could potentially place (or even win) then it absolutely matters to you and the audience that you be given that chance. While I'm not expecting Sonicfox to get randomed out anytime soon, it's asking a lot less for somebody to take 2 rounds off of him than 3, and that matters for the overall environment. In Japan, they play Single Elimination, which means they have a greater variety of winners. Japanese players love coming to the US for tournaments because they view it as much easier for them to win (and they're right). Conversely, there's something to be said for different people placing at tournaments, both us as a community and to outsiders who need to see a good, inviting impression of our community.

Another thing I need to ask you, and by "you" I mean the parts of our community that want longer sets, is "How consistently do blowouts happen?" I had a debate a few years back with Melee players because I believed that switching to 2-stock (or even 1-stock!) would not affect tournament results at all based off the streamed top 8 at Evo that had just occurred at the time. 4-stock as a rule only exists to arbitrarily extend the length of the game, boring spectators who are not invested in Melee, without actually contributing mathematically to results. Whoever took the first stock went on to win 85% of matches with the exception of Wobbles, who was only excepted because he could remove a stock with a single touch at any point. If you changed the game to 2-stock, nothing would be affected other than sets not lasting 20 minutes each. If you want SG2E to switch to 3/5, are you sure it will make a difference?

As @keninblack said, top 8 being 3/5 in a 64+ sized tournament is fine, but anything less results in a huge increase in tournament length for little potential gain.
 
As @keninblack said, top 8 being 3/5 in a 64+ sized tournament is fine, but anything less results in a huge increase in tournament length for little potential gain.

I agree, if NEC pulls in the numbers and has 4-8 pools of many players i'm down to make it happen.

But yeah locals/tournaments below like... late 50's in entries should just stay 2/3 all the way. Until WF LF GF ofc.
 
I like 3/5 for Top 8/16.

I also like 3/5 for the finals of pools to see who gets out and who goes home, but I might be alone on that one.
It's probably too hard and not worth the effort for a TO to communicate which matches are suddenly 3/5 in pools.

At the events I've been too the TO is always saying we're going to fast and need to slow down to get more matches on stream during pools.
 
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For me it's just simple economics. There is more value to EVERYONE if there are 3/5 matches throughout. I just find it to be a bigger draw for international and out of state competition. More bang for your buck so to speak, also in SG it's entirely possible to lose a match without ever getting off a confirm. Combine that with sg's speed in tournie and it makes at least a bit of sense to make it 3/5.

But, I mean it's a community thing, if no one wants it then so be it. I'm not arguing for myself, I went 4-2 at the only SG major I ever attended. I just think it's nice to try and give more value to people that pay. Casuals dont count because you aren't paying for casuals past venue fee, and casuals aren't the same experience as tournie... As any tournie player would know.
 
I think 3/5 SG would still be faster or about the same as other games. We get maximum of 99 seconds a game, even in 1v1, and it rarely goes into time out. A single game of Street Fighter can take way longer then a full match of Skullgirls. Tournament mode also saves a lot of time.
3/5 is better for players, that won't feel like they got cheap'd out, and for viewers that get to watch more SG. We get a really hype match on early top 8 and 50~ seconds later it's over.
I'm not a TO myself, but I wish the ones who are would experiment with the format. I just don't feel like 2/3 does the game justice.
 
The fact the game is quick is super convenient for the people organizing the SG tournament and the overall tournament itself. No reason for anything outside of top cut to be 3/5 though. Never going to advocate that.
 
I'm curious, since no one's mentioned it, if those of you advocating for top 8 to be 3/5 would also want Winners/Losers/Grand Finals to be bumped up to 4/7 accordingly.

EDIT: Derp. It's 4/7 not 5/7.
 
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I'm curious, since no one's mentioned it, if those of you advocating for top 8 to be 3/5 would also want Winners/Losers/Grand Finals to be bumped up to 5/7 accordingly.

Nah ft5 is too long.
 
On the line about 3/5 (could go either way and I wouldn't be sad/care though I slightly lean to 3/5 because I do like the ability for people to have more time to understand their opponent a bit, so like, 55 in favor/45 not split opinion here), absolutely no on the 5/7 W/L/GF unless a practical demonstration proves.. that it's practical. So, to the above posts, 6.

EDIT: Heavily agree with Skarmand's post for the record.

And I greatly value the opinion of people like kenin considering they've been involved in organizing stuff like this before (a lot, IIRC? kenin, so helpful!), so they WOULD have insight that matters. But it doesn't mean I take their opinion for gospel either, just that it weighs heavier than some other's. Love you kenin. <3
 
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Just cause it'll bug me if no one points this out, it's actually 4/7, not 5/7 (that's 5/9).

I think it would be a better format if pools n stuff were 2/3, and then top 8/16 (but mostly 8) were run to be 3/5. As the player skill goes higher, 3/5 can be a more viable assessment of the matches and things like that. Also the game does go fast, so 3/5 wouldn't be that bad for the later matches of a major, imo.
 
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I'm curious, since no one's mentioned it, if those of you advocating for top 8 to be 3/5 would also want Winners/Losers/Grand Finals to be bumped up to 4/7 accordingly.

EDIT: Derp. It's 4/7 not 5/7.
No, that is just pushing it too far. I think W/L/G finals should 3/5 just like the rest of top 8/16 or so.
 
The thing is, how this affects events and such?

I mean, someone already did the calculations, is at least 50% more time in the tournament, maybe the organizers in events like combo breaker don't have that much time to give to skullgirls.

Yeah, skullgirls tournaments are fast, but extending it, is something unnecessary IMO, and we have the factor that most top 8s are the same in the case of skullgirls, the same players, almost the same positions.
 
and we have the factor that most top 8s are the same in the case of skullgirls, the same players, almost the same positions.
Don't really think this is true. The three furry gods get top 3 at everything they enter but outside of that the top 8s tend to vary a lot. Like compare Winter Brawl 2015 to Summer Jam 2015, two tournaments held the same year at the same venue. Only 2 players were in top 8 of both tournaments.
 
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Top8 - ft 3/5 would be wise test this format to push forward the game, high level matches on SG currently are like 20-35 seg. per match (?) thats insane fast comparing like the other counterparts like UMVSC3, SF4, etc. I think would be wise test this format this year in a a few/ rest of the tournaments because its the first year of "final version" of the game and "if we tested quick, would be have a experience feedback by participants and fans quick."

In the worst escenario just will return to the actual format.
 
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I think I like the idea of extending the 3/5 format to top 8 from top 4.

I think the best way to get our feet wet with this new format is to do 2/3 for pools like normal and only do 3/5 for top 8.
Then if it works out, maybe try top 16 or do the pools finals to make it out to top 8 be 3/5.
I don't think anything before pools finals should be 3/5 and should stay 2/3.

I think the size of the tournament is also a factor to decide how much should be 3/5.

I think top 16 could be 3/5 if we get Combo Breaker or EVO numbers.
top 8 for smaller than that.
top 4 for smaller than that.
 
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Pools should never have 3/5 to qualify out. Your reward for getting OUT of pools is that you get the treatment of 3/5.

Yeah I fuss with that though.

16+ pools= top 32 cut off 2/3 until top 16 3/5

8 pools= top 16 3/5

4 pools= top 8 3/5

Tournament with no pools= top 4 3/5

I'm down to be the guinea pig and try this out with NEC, CEOtaku and TFC are too set in stone to mess with anything now. Don't want to step on any toes, but I can easily make changes at NEC.
 
Pools should never have 3/5 to qualify out. Your reward for getting OUT of pools is that you get the treatment of 3/5.

Yeah I fuss with that though.

16+ pools= top 32 cut off 2/3 until top 16 3/5

8 pools= top 16 3/5

4 pools= top 8 3/5

Tournament with no pools= top 4 3/5

I'm down to be the guinea pig and try this out with NEC, CEOtaku and TFC are too set in stone to mess with anything now. Don't want to step on any toes, but I can easily make changes at NEC.

Yes pls!
 
Don't really think this is true. The three furry gods get top 3 at everything they enter but outside of that the top 8s tend to vary a lot. Like compare Winter Brawl 2015 to Summer Jam 2015, two tournaments held the same year at the same venue. Only 2 players were in top 8 of both tournaments.
Seconding this. On any given East Coast tournament you can reroll the results and there's a high chance that everyone outside of the fur trinity will be in a different place.

IMO 3/5 should be for Top 8. Top 16 if the tournament is big enough. I don't like 3/5 for pools because it basically means stomps will take longer and that's about it.
 
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As someone who gets more timeouts than probably anyone else in this game, I'm not in favor of 3/5 for anything out of Top 8 or so depending on tourney size. At the KC monthly, I personally managed to hold back the 3S tourney by about 2 or 3 hours.
 
Is that relevant to our discussion in any way?
It's one off topic post, dude. You need to relax.
 
Due to the discussion from the Combo Breaker thread, I think now is a good time to revive this thread.

A good post for this was by keninblack here:
Pools should never have 3/5 to qualify out. Your reward for getting OUT of pools is that you get the treatment of 3/5.

Yeah I fuss with that though.

16+ pools= top 32 cut off 2/3 until top 16 3/5

8 pools= top 16 3/5

4 pools= top 8 3/5

Tournament with no pools= top 4 3/5

I'm down to be the guinea pig and try this out with NEC, CEOtaku and TFC are too set in stone to mess with anything now. Don't want to step on any toes, but I can easily make changes at NEC.

@thehadou: I think this is the kind of thing people are talking about.
Historically, the early rounds of pools have been 2/3 for 2 main reasons:
1. There are more games to be played so this will naturally take longer than after the tournament has whittled down the competition to top 32 or less
2. Lower level matches can take longer than higher level ones

Once you get to that top 32 or less the skill levels rise and individual games within a set go a lot faster. 2/3 almost starts to become a bit random at higher levels judging by past tournament placements of players. Not that SG is inherently random (there are no instant 1-touch deaths like Marvel 3 from any random hit, and anything that actually can ToD outright needs a specific starter, counter-hit, lots of meter and/or a specific ratio matchup), but sometimes a player can win off the momentum from that first push even if the other player has several chances to get out.

Having 3/5 earlier in and for the rest of the tournament (instead of just finals) would allow the higher level matches a bit more room for adaptability to decide a clearer winner without impeding on the time constraint all that much (and it's also way more exciting).

Also, ANYTHING that has to do with putting games on stream will always take up a lot of time because, at least in SG's case, most of it is waiting for the next match to end (whether it be SG or waiting for a different fighting game to finish to put SG on) regardless of the set's format, but I guess I don't need to tell you that. lol

I, for one, would not be recommending more of the tournament be 3/5 at all if it was detrimental to keeping the tournament running smoothly.

More recently, the player skill levels are getting even higher to the point that some are considering running the entire tournament in 3/5. I'm not too sure about going that far, but I definitely think we could do the latter half of the tourney in 3/5 without adding too much time to the tournament.

These are my 2 cents on this topic.
 
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