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Yatagarasu / Legend of Raven thread

this netcode is awful. couldn't play against someone with 40 ping. since there's no rollback, but fixed input delay, the game just runs slower the worse the connection is. It really fucks with inputs too since you have to do motions slower when the game is slower. ggpo is coming, right?

Also does anyone know why running this game opens a zillion instances of lav splitter?
 
Anyone know how I shoul be playing Kotaro right now? I'm slowly figuring her out, but my damage output seems to be a ton less than every other character and my normals don't seem to have the speed or range of most of the cast D:

Really love her gameplay though, really wanna learn how to use her right.
 
herbvijkl said:
this netcode is awful. couldn't play against someone with 40 ping. since there's no rollback, but fixed input delay, the game just runs slower the worse the connection is. It really fucks with inputs too since you have to do motions slower when the game is slower. ggpo is coming, right?

Also does anyone know why running this game opens a zillion instances of lav splitter?
did you fiddle with the delay just in case? I've been playing with people around 150 and it feels even better than SG. You can set the delay (just like in GGPO) on the character select screen by pressing O and P (O to decrease and P to increase). I hope GGPO doesn't ruin this feature because at least I can feel the delay before I start the match. But yeah GGPO is on it's way.
 
obviously adding delay helps the speed, but what's the point since I'm playing with 3+ frames of delay?
 
I like this game, except that everything that is not actually fighting really sucks!
It's a precious gem surrounded by technical problems. Drives me nuts.
 
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Agreed. They really took the "this is a fighter first and foremost" spirit to the next level.

Having said that, the training mode has some super cool features.
I'm still waiting on ggpo. But I may be waiting forever it seems. Something that I don't like is that parrying can be done from block. That's fucking stupid IMHO.

And to make matters worse, when I asked how this feature was balanced since they are always talking about BL counters and such to make parrying have more risk, they just said that parrying while blocking was balanced by a smaller window during block... Which isn't a balance at all. At best it gives a block/parry os and at worst it is balance by execution stupidity. They guy that learns to parry well while holding block will have a distinct advantage over the guy that uses the wider window of neutral parries.
 
UI updates are on there way eventually. While I don't like the look of the current menus and the fact that Arcade rerandomizes on loss and ranked match kicks you out of training/arcade after a match, I can deal with those. The lobbies definately need to get fixed. As it is, I can create a lobby but no one can join it aside from certain, seemingly random ppl (tried with a number of friends who can join other lobbies just fine) can join. I don't do lobby a lot, but it creates annoyance when me and my opponent have to go out of our way to use the private lobby system, which I feel should also be fixed to add the option of steam invites or create lobbies with a passcode.

Either way, we know they're slow, so give them time on the UI stuff.

I wish the challenges would display either both move name and input, or just input. I play kotaro and have yet to memorize her move names, so going through challenges can be a bit annoying.

I find this last bit funny. The returning cast still uses old portaits it seems, cause Kotaru uses her current char select portait in battle, but chars like Kou or Juzumaru have a different portrait that doesn't seem to come from any of the assets currently in the game. Portraits from an older version? It bugs me a bit as I like consistency, but I find it more amusing than anything.
 
So yeah I heard there's this one guy who's super is a Galactica Phantom.

And another guy who has rappukens.

So...what about those guys?
 
Oh god I REALLY wish the challenges just used what the move is rather than the move names... So frustrating having to look back at the novelist over and over again or even worse, try to do the challenges with the move list superimposed on the screen.
 
6-Let said:
did you fiddle with the delay just in case? I've been playing with people around 150 and it feels even better than SG.
I think you missed the point of GGPO. The point is that you can set the delay to 0 at all times. Just sayin'.
 
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Dime_x said:
They guy that learns to parry well while holding block will have a distinct advantage over the guy that uses the wider window of neutral parries.

The guy who uses block+parry, neutral parry and forward/down+parry depending on the confidence of his reads will have a distinct advantage over people who only use one style of parrying at any point.

Also keep in mind that parrying locks out throw tech, and if you know someone is gonna wait and parry(or you look at their parry lights) you can dash grab them at neutral, and they wouldn't be able to react with a delayed throw tech like you would normally choose to react against dash-in grab.

It moves the risk/reward more towards throws being used to beat parry, instead of high/low parry guessing.

"But then they could poke you out of your moving forward/dashing forward to throw them" which if they're poking they're obviously not parrying. Counterpoke their poke when they're trying to keep you out from dashing in for throw - and the cycle continues into good footsies.
 
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North888 said:
Anyone know how I shoul be playing Kotaro right now? I'm slowly figuring her out, but my damage output seems to be a ton less than every other character and my normals don't seem to have the speed or range of most of the cast D:

Really love her gameplay though, really wanna learn how to use her right.
I'm sure you could find some YT video on how some people play her. I believe her qcf+P is pretty safe isn't it? Her cr.lk is also amazing it's like jabbing with Jet.
She's also got a hop forward command grab into damage with 50% scaling. She seems to me like a straightforward rushdown character with mobile specials. Her love dart special seems to support that.
 
I actually played a few rounds with @6-Let last night to help improve my Kotaro. Really great matches, even if there was some trouble getting them setup and I was falling asleep by the end of them XD

Kotaro isn't really a rushdown char I'm learning. She's more a midrange hit and run style character. Her pokes lack a bit of range compared to other characters, but they're fast and effective, while her qcf+p in the air is a decent read move for ppl chasing you into the air and qcf+p is pretty much safe all the time unless you get parried, since you bounce off on hit. You can even chain qcf+p into her air qcb+HP which tends to catch most ppl off guard, especially if they're trying to get in to punish. She has good normals, but I'm learning she has a greater reliance on effective and fairly safe specials. It's actually a play style I like, since I tend to be overly reliant on my special moves as opposed to my normals.

Her Supers are where she both shines and has a few issues. Love Dart is a fun tool and can be chain pretty easily. The slow status it gives throws a lot of players off and makes running in for a grab or combo easy. Her air combo special is a different beast. It's possible to do a Tiger Knee (still have to practice that, thanks for showing me that 6-Let!) and get the special low profile, but you can also chain it off of QCF+P easily for extra followup damage, but it's a fairly weak special. You're better off using the meter on EX qcf+P (both air and ground) or Love Dart super.

The biggest thing that throws ppl off is her dash special. QCB+K throws her either straight up like a double jump feint, or forward wit both heavy and EX uses. It can be fun to use it to juke ppl and bring down the knife on their heads, but it lacks as much use as simple jumping back and throw kunai to bait the opponent for her dive attack. You CAN, however, if you the timing of a god, use it to cancel out of one move into another. For example: CHP>6HK>JHP can go into any of her 3 specials. If you delay the JHP, you can go into her dive, or if you don't you can throw a kunai for potentially extra damage as a sort of reset. Alternatively, you can do the QCB+HK to jump foward, and if you time it right, throw out her aerial supers for guaranteed hits, but the timing of it is hit or miss, and the frame timing online is near impossible.

Her little hop grab is a great move if you can time it right, as you can go right into 6HK or 2HP>QCF+LP or jabs>QCF+LP. The issue with it is that a lot of characters will be trying to get around you and expect either a jump in or for you to dash in with her QCF+P. Its best used more like an OS, with the hop able to avoid some attacks and get around some ppl's defenses. You don't want to use it in neutral unless you want to get punished or eat an attack expecting you to use a different move.

Either way, really enjoying her and looking forward to putting some time into the lab to figure out some more devious setups with her.
 
Hmmm ok. I saw the hop command grab as the alternative to annoying qcf+p since some people will look to parry qcf+p.
 
kotaro's command grab is better suited as a mixup after an air reset.
2C > 6D > 236C > 236C[whiff low in air] (or 214D low in air) > 5B (air reset) into:
- 63214C
- dash up low/throw/bait reversal (same animation as cmd grab)
- cancel 5B into 236C for cross under

Off throw in the corner you can go for meaty knife / crossups
Off cmd grab you can go into damaging star's gift combos into more resets

I think Kotaro definitely wants to play rushdown as she's super weak on defense.
 
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Just picked this up and I must say I suck. Bad. Like 25 matches online and I won 2. This game is rough. So far picked up Shimo and I'm finding her fun to play but each hit pretty weak compared to others in the cast. This might take more patience to learn than I have. Ugh learning an new fighting game is so troublesome for me.
 
It's not necessarily rushdown as far as Kotaro goes. I'd say more a mix of "Hit and Run" and "Mid-Range Zoner." Kotaro lacks defense options, but her rushdown tools allow her to get in close for mixups and resets and other fun things, but then back out quickly after hard knockdowns or whiffs with her amazing kunai and dive kick-esque air sword spin. She gets in, does damage, and then punishes those looking to retaliate immediately. It's a fun play style.
 
ClarenceMage said:
The guy who uses block+parry, neutral parry and forward/down+parry depending on the confidence of his reads will have a distinct advantage over people who only use one style of parrying at any point.

Also keep in mind that parrying locks out throw tech, and if you know someone is gonna wait and parry(or you look at their parry lights) you can dash grab them at neutral, and they wouldn't be able to react with a delayed throw tech like you would normally choose to react against dash-in grab.

It moves the risk/reward more towards throws being used to beat parry, instead of high/low parry guessing.

"But then they could poke you out of your moving forward/dashing forward to throw them" which if they're poking they're obviously not parrying. Counterpoke their poke when they're trying to keep you out from dashing in for throw - and the cycle continues into good footsies.


I didn't know that parry disables throws. That's something that should have been said when I asked the question in the steam questions chat and the answer I got was "blocking while parrying has a smaller window"

I don't agree that the guy that uses more parry timings will have an inherent advantage over the guy that only uses the small window. In the early life of the game I can see it definitely, but once the game becomes known I see it being less and less good since parties are going to be better and better timed the huge window won't be needed as much. However the 50/50 option select of block/parry will be just as strong if not stronger once the game becomes known. Unless of course one can input f+parry then immediately hit block and still get the extended window... Idk if that works but if it does then I see that OS being very powerful. But it's still basically the same thing, parrying while downbacking.

As far as throws to beat parries ala 3s that's always an option as well, but personally I've never liked the abuse of throws that this leads to. Seeing Japanese players throw people 2-3 times in a row and juice box stream where he throws people the same amount, makes me cringe. I like strong throws, I don't like looping throws like ST though.. It just looks dumb. I can get used to it of course but it's still terrible looking gameplay and makes the game look various forms of kusoge.

Not having the inherent high/low parry mixup is probably the most upsetting thing for me though. But yeah I've gotten my question answered. Abuse throws
 
Rizil said:
Just picked this up and I must say I suck. Bad. Like 25 matches online and I won 2. This game is rough. So far picked up Shimo and I'm finding her fun to play but each hit pretty weak compared to others in the cast. This might take more patience to learn than I have. Ugh learning an new fighting game is so troublesome for me.

That's like me! I have about 15% win rate with Shimo. I still play Shimo a little, but I've mostly moved on to Hanzo now. She feels like the hardest character in the game for me...which is kind of why I like her.

Theoretically you could shut down high/low parry mixup, but even if the community has leveled up to a high level (let's say Juicebox's level if you consider him high level) it still sounds impractical. Just delaying an overhead or low will beat it. I believe the smaller window is about half of f+parry, I don't exactly remember. It's like 4-6 frames. It's not like high/low parry mixup doesn't exist because you can do a well timed parry. Even if they remove throwing from the game, it is hard to believe just doing that parry and block will stop a high/low parry mixup. It's not like people can react to all high/low mixups all the time.

Something like 2-3 throws in a row is something that the players let happen. Because the other player decides, "Hes not gonna through again. It's too obvious." Well guess what? It could be stupid, or it could be just that the enemy has gotten into your head for a moment like when BJ Unchained beat Bon-chan.
 
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Dime_x said:
In the early life of the game I can see it definitely, but once the game becomes known I see it being less and less good since parties are going to be better and better timed the huge window won't be needed as much.

I disagree. In a 3s-like game, committing to risk-averse play can be blown up and capitalised on. Playing a varied playstyle, or a playstyle tailored to blow up specifically your opponent is more important than finding abusive strategies that could work on everyone by virtue of being bs.

At higher levels of play in any fighting game, smaller and smaller windows of timing become relevant, and NOT using a tool that provides larger parry-window coverage (forward/down+parry) for the same cost (parry lockout), in favor of ALWAYS using a tool that provides smaller parry windows while locking it out for the same amount of time is a habit that will be abused and exploited.

Dash forward grab is the obvious one, but for instance timing a forward moving plus on block move (ie Hina's LP dash slash) or fireball after their block parry window runs out will be frustrating for such a risk-averse player, since the whole point of a low-committal blockparry is to blow stuff up at specific timings and not care if it doesn't work. "Staying Safe" by blocking at half screen is exactly what fireballs and plus on block forward moving moves are great against.
 
ClarenceMage said:
I disagree. In a 3s-like game, committing to risk-averse play can be blown up and capitalised on. Playing a varied playstyle, or a playstyle tailored to blow up specifically your opponent is more important than finding abusive strategies that could work on everyone by virtue of being bs.

At higher levels of play in any fighting game, smaller and smaller windows of timing become relevant, and NOT using a tool that provides larger parry-window coverage (forward/down+parry) for the same cost (parry lockout), in favor of ALWAYS using a tool that provides smaller parry windows while locking it out for the same amount of time is a habit that will be abused and exploited.

Dash forward grab is the obvious one, but for instance timing a forward moving plus on block move (ie Hina's LP dash slash) or fireball after their block parry window runs out will be frustrating for such a risk-averse player, since the whole point of a low-committal blockparry is to blow stuff up at specific timings and not care if it doesn't work. "Staying Safe" by blocking at half screen is exactly what fireballs and plus on block forward moving moves are great against.


I still disagree. This would be something that I would agree to disagree about. But I'll explain my reasoning:

Your example centers around worst case scenario but doesn't take into account an actual worse case scenario.

Lest say I'm using small window (it isn't actually small BTW) parry and OSing with block. You are using big window parry and OSing with either a normal which invalidates your parry, or a jump which sets you up for punishment or "something else" what we aren't considering here is that that parry window comes at the price of being a high or low parry and is thus blowupable by huge damage via BL counter or at the very least a combo. Where the player with the smaller window for parry is blowupable by at most a throw, and that's mostly when inside, and is almost completely immune to BL counters. So that player will be hitting parries and getting damage and will not be getting countered for trying to parry nearly as much as the higher window guy nor will he be getting damaged as hard as the longer window guy.

Short window parry guy is basically "low risk high reward"
Long parry window guy is basically "high risk high reward"

The rewards for parry in both cases will be the same. The consequences however will be higher against the long window guy. Also, the short window guy being more confident of not being severely punished for a failed parry can go for more of them, offsetting the long window guys natural ability to have a higher success rate per parry in a percentage setting.

And finally, idk what hinas frames look like but shimos lp dash attack is minus 3 and gives the next turn to the opponent at advantage. So, not a huge loss to have to block that sometimes and parry it others, versus getting hit by it sometimes and parrying it other times.


At best what I see happening is long parry window being used against anticipated attacks that can be parried high or low, and short parry being used against anticipated high/low parry mixups.
 
A third variable to risk/reward that is often ignored, is success rate. Risk, reward, success rate.

Parrying is high risk, high reward, and high success rate with appropriate reading/situational analysis. A smaller parry window with block parry is low risk, high reward, but also lower success rate than just parrying. With block parry when you win you win big, and you don't lose much if it doesn't work, but you also don't win often.

In a game with high burst damage on correct guess and correct mixups, constantly picking a low risk, low success rate option is not ideal. Using it to hedge your bets is smart, but being constnatly safe in exchange for Not Losing Much if you make a timing error or your opponent throws you/fireballs/+onblockspecials you, will turn into a ballsier opponent converting throw oki/fireball positioning/frame positivity into a very dangerous scenario for you, since they have positional advantage and your parry is locked out.

With the inch you give your opponent in block+parry habits, a good player will take a mile.
 
I already addressed that variable up above.

Long parry equals higher success rate. Yes. Higher amount of punishes per missed parry however reduces the long parries ability to be used frequently. This Means few(er) attempts at long parries, versus more attempts at short parries.

This diminishes the long parries effectiveness when compared to short parries and brings us basically back to square one. Where wiffed long parries take direct damage versus wiffed short parries at best equal blocked moves.
 
I'll never understand characters like Chadha, how are you supposed to do the 360 grabs without jumping into the air all the time? Maybe I'm just stuck playing rushdowns and shotos.
 
Lucky said:
how are you supposed to do the 360 grabs without jumping into the air all the time
Just takes some practice, trust me, if I can do it, which I can, anyone can. Well anyone with hands.

You can also buffer the motion with a dash or jump in most games, which is required for 720's (unless you're in block stun or knocked down) for most people.

Don't ask about Chadha's 1800 though.
 
AdenPhoenix said:
Just takes some practice, trust me, if I can do it, which I can, anyone can. Well anyone with hands.

You can also buffer the motion with a dash or jump in most games, which is required for 720's (unless you're in block stun or knocked down) for most people.

Don't ask about Chadha's 1800 though.
I think I've got stupid fingers, they just don't move fast enough.
 
Has anyone else had display issues? The game just shows up as a small box in the center of my screen, I clicked the 2X zoom option in the start up menu but it doesn't seem to have any effect?

Lucky said:
I think I've got stupid fingers, they just don't move fast enough.
Practice will make it natural if you just keep trying. He's a fun character, and worth the effort of learning.
 
Lucky said:
I'll never understand characters like Chadha, how are you supposed to do the 360 grabs without jumping into the air all the time? Maybe I'm just stuck playing rushdowns and shotos.
A simple mixup you can do while you can't do 360s fast enough is just after you get a knockdown, you jump at them to land right as they get up, so you can go for a 360 (buffered during the jump), a meaty low, or just bait a reversal if you know your opponent likes doing wake-up dps.
 
Does the game have input lenience on 360s like others do? So you can just do 12369 like SFIV?
 
Just want to say as awful as the UI is they deserve credit for integrating fully functional challenges into the training mode, I never understood why it didn't work like that for other games.
 
I never got why Juzumaru has a dark version that you can select by hitting up/down on him in char select. I mean, no one else has an alternate variant, so why not just make him a separate char? Unless they plan on putting in more variants like Dark Juzu in the future?
 
North888 said:
I never got why Juzumaru has a dark version that you can select by hitting up/down on him in char select. I mean, no one else has an alternate variant, so why not just make him a separate char? Unless they plan on putting in more variants like Dark Juzu in the future?
yeah you got me there. Not sure why only one unless they couldn't make up their mind on which one. But I can see why having both elements in one would make him somewhat OP with the armor Shoulder and frame frame advantage with the LP>LP link
 
Trying to learn Kou. I don't normally play Shotos, but I'm not really minding him so far. I just wish the DP was a bit easier to cancel into. A lot of times I get Fireball instead of Fire Uppercut despite the same movement getting uppercut for me in neutral. It's kinda annoying. liking him overall though. Need to play some actual practice matches with him however.
 
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Spencer said:
Does the game have input lenience on 360s like others do? So you can just do 12369 like SFIV?
No. Have to hit 8. Also only sf4 has that kind of input leniency.
 
So the game just got an update recently, anyone up for a few rounds tomorrow evening EST?
 
DukeMagus said:
Have they fixed the menu interface?
Menus make a bit more sense now, I'd say (the second arcade is now Side Story, for one). Only thing that's missing now is GGPO.
 
DukeMagus said:
Have they fixed the menu interface?
Fix what? The menu works fine. I seriously don't get the complaints unless you have a phobia of text based menus.

The only problem is lack of GGPO
 
Soo...does anyone still play this game? Cause I like this game and I wanna play it more.
 
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