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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

No point in not doing barrel loop when you get more reset points, and more consistent reset points from it.

Cilia slide stuff barely gets you anymore damage and doesn't give you any new reset points you couldn't get from barrel.

Her corner damage is also embarrassing.
 
dekillsage said:
the luger one will get double counter hit and killed if blocked it sucks.
Filia players do c.HK xx Updo as a reset option

I don't think a reset is instantly garbage just because it gets you hit if it didn't work - In the end, every reset is a gamble; Parasoul 6LP isn't a shitty reset option just because the opponent might have been mashing, either.

Luger is also currently kinda harder to punish in Beta

Worst case you can Luger+Assist?

E: Point wasn't whether this is good or not, but that Double is currently deadass boring and I wish she wasn't.
Whether she needs some "buff" to get away from that (burning barrels, higher dmg on Luger so routes with it are more beneficial, nerf jHP and compensation buff other buttons so she's less of a one-button-wonder) or ppl r bad I dunno, and don't care too much either way
But ples both playing and fighting Double is just uninspiring
 
Maybe Double's on-point DP SHOULD be a question. It kinda sucks that double can't do shit when she's made to block except for be ridiculously good at pushblocking, get a really smartly timed car, or have enough meter for level 3/5.
 
Her counterhit damage isn't that special either from what I can tell. And if you use an otg in your combo you're basically saying I want to go back to neutral, because you're not in a good spot after supering regardless of where you choose to go


IsaVulpes said:
Filia players do c.HK xx Updo as a reset option

I don't think a reset is instantly garbage just because it gets you hit if it didn't work - In the end, every reset is a gamble; Parasoul 6LP isn't a shitty reset option just because the opponent might have been mashing, either.

Luger is also currently kinda harder to punish in Beta

Worst case you can Luger+Assist?

Nah I didn't mean it was garbage, my sentence was just bad. I meant its a good reset but the risk is a dead double. I personally try to do as little resets like that because of it.

Also no Filia player should do cr.hk -> updo. The risk reward isn't good enough and she has infinitely better options. imo

Luger when you block it in the air is actually kinda unsafe. It's the last thing you want to happen but its either it hits or it wiffs or it gets blocked and you can die for 2/3 of those things.

Luger + assist is good vs people without air supers for that reset. I like Double/Copter or DNB for that reason. Pretty fun
 
I thought lk bomber was 4 frames vulnerable?

Either way, yeah its not the greatest reversal getting stuffed all the time on point, and having deathcrawl syndrome the other time (people jumping over it and stuff) car is slow and people can always cancel into dp/tag through it.

Car becomes a good reversal when double has a safe on block dhc to make it safe... And thats about it.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Maybe Double's on-point DP SHOULD be a question. It kinda sucks that double can't do shit when she's made to block except for be ridiculously good at pushblocking, get a really smartly timed car, or have enough meter for level 3/5.
Hyperbole won't get you anywhere. Val/PW/etc don't have any meterless reversals
Double still has catheads offense.

About pushblocking -
Catheads already don't activate on negative edge. SoiD can be given some startup after blocking if it becomes a big deal, which it probably should have anyway in case you walk into a thing in 1 frame.
 
@cm
Yeah, i wasnt going by what you said, i thought i remembered mike saying that it was 3-4 frames vulnerable... But he might have meant the assist as well, or maybe its been changed since then since that was mde. I could get my lazy ass up and look at the frame counter though... But either way i still get it stuffed on startup.
 
I'm not being hyperbolic. Both on my defense and on my opponent's defense, if Double is made to block, you may as well write off the character unless you are godlike at blocking and pushblocking, or make an mlg420noscope level read or reaction super. I will snap in double like 90% of the time on my first scaled touch vs Double supported teams since I can usually make Double die before she can do anything relevant.

Valentine's and Painwheel's 1 meter reversals are all better than Car as a defensive option, for the simple fact that they have hitstop on them when done at point blank at midscreen which already makes them way more consistent than Car. Double's Car hitstop is only really functional if her back is to the corner and car is being done from the corner. Double has to already BE CORNERED in order to get the most out of her level 1 super as a defensive option.

Painwheel's Buer Thresher is the best air super in the game, it's got that small 1f hitbox right next to her so you can hitstop-fuck people, and it lets you convert off of it into your combo and therefore setup of choice. Car can't do that shit, and car can't be done in the air.

Death Crawl also isn't that bad of a reversal option for painwheel, due to the point blank hitstop and complete invul.

What car DOES have is utility as a neutral game super, which makes it better in different situations than Val & PW's level 1 supers. But those situations aren't defense for the majority of situations, unless you have a safe dhc, but literally everything is fixed by a safe DHC.

Implying that "Val/PW have no un-metered reversals so that makes their defense just as bad as double's" is disingenuous and incorrect because Val & Painwheels 1-metered reversals function as legitimate consistent reversals out side of the corner. If Val & Painwheel pushblock their opponents out successfully, they are also able to use their extra-good movement options to fuck off and bring the game back into their favour, while Double is too slow to not still be on the defensive the majority of the time after successfully pushing opponents out.
 
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Er... @Mike_Z this isn't the right build and I thought I'd let you know.
(or maybe a few things in the patch notes aren't in the beta like filia's hurtboxes on j.hk)
 
Yes, Double's defence is bad.. ..But she's still kind of the best anchor?
Do you really want to make her anchor game stronger by giving her a viable reversal option?

Sure she's susceptible to snaps, but snapping means you pre-emptively end a combo AND spend a bar to get the possibility of landing a hit on a character you'd prefer to kill.
That's a huge investment, and this investment being worth it even if the opponent's assist char doesn't sit on 90% red life isn't necessarily something I'd view as bad?

I kind of like when some characters have clear-cut team positions and weaknesses, rather than every character being able to do everything as good as each other.
 
IsaVulpes said:
I kind of like when some characters have clear-cut team positions and weaknesses, rather than every character being able to do everything as good as each other.
Agreed.
Can we have MDE damage back for bella then? I want to ToD 1v2 again without counter hit. I don't feel like I do that much damage anymore compared to most other chars.
 
I like band anchor now. Ssj has to be respected making the opponents offense kinda weak and band does monster damage either with his normal combos or ssj x2


Double being best anchor isnt where its at anymore unless you use val or parasoul point since both can convert mk bomber into combo.

But besides them, band or bella are probably better, band has way better assists to choose from and has massive damage, bella has good assists, massive damage and still,works well as a solo anchor because of threat of level 3 nuking an assist, and her neutral having great priority and not needing assists for her resets.
 
I'd honestly agree and stand with Big Band being a better anchor than Double.

Double anchor is EASILY top 3-4 don't get me wrong but she has no "get off me" tools or anything that stops her from getting bullied. She doesn't get damage like BB and Bella do.

She also NEEDS meter to be scary, don't act like your afraid of that blobby bitch when she has no meter.

But fucking BELLA?! Regardless of how much is in her tank you're stressed, same with Big Band but to a lesser extent.

Also the whole you can't call assist in neutral when Bella has +3 meters is also pretty good.
 
Double just doesn't feel like a threat without catheads. She doesn't have that strong "ima fk you up" vibe that bella and bb have. Nor, does she have as many options as fukua. Honestly I think she is the weakest of the four when it comes to being an anchor.
 
keninblack said:
No point in not doing barrel loop when you get more reset points, and more consistent reset points from it.

Cilia slide stuff barely gets you anymore damage and doesn't give you any new reset points you couldn't get from barrel.

Her corner damage is also embarrassing.

Barrel Loop for resets
Cilia Slide for damage

Pick one? Other characters have less optimized combos that yield more reset points.

You still get the same type of resets off the cilia combo, just with like, 1 less loop. It's not unheard of to have a combo that sacrifices damage for more reset potential.

I'm also kind of scratching my head at people thinking 7.6k for 1 meter is bad, more if you have an assist. It's like 700 extra damage than what you get from the typical barrel loop combo. That's more damage than Filia, Valentine, Parasoul, Ms.Fortune, and situationally, Squigly get on average. Take a look at their damage off a throw as well, on-top of the resources they need to convert off said throw in every situation.

Damage buff is definitely not addressing her issues. Her issue is the only reliable way to open you up is with j.HP/c.LK/grab/flesh step crossup
 
For only pennies a day you can help a Double with terrible jabs syndrome. This sweet child cannot even chain her terrible high jab to her terrible low jab or the reverse, neither of which extends more than a few pixels outside of her giant neutral hitbox, but she has drawn this crayon drawing of you to show you how much she loves her sponsor.

Those are some real nice standing jabs on Ms. Fortune, just sayin'
 
Heyo, dropping in here since it'll probably get the most exposure.

I downloaded both of the updates that went out earlier today, but now when I try to run either Retail or Beta, the "Preparing to launch Skullgirls" window pops up, freezes any of my Steam windows while it tries to load, then closes the Preparing window. It continues to do this indefinitely until I go into Task Manager and kill the SG process or restart Steam. I've managed to get retail to open once right as I restarted Steam, but I couldn't tell you what was different between that boot and any of the others.

Specs:
CPU AMD FX-8350
GPU 2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 (EVGA)
Win7 Home Premium 64-bit SP1

@Mike_Z What other information do you need? I know there's a log dump flag but I don't know if it would dump since the game doesn't even start.
 
@RemiKz combo is actually on point. I didnt like it at first because no st.mk x2 and that scales damage, so i thought cr.mk was just a terrible damage modifier combo vid only move...but looking at it on the frames and it is less on block than st.mk.... Obviously dont get to stagger another mk like with st.mk on block... But cr.hp can be staggered instead.

And now with the new mp shot, the entire string on block varies from -4 to -1 depending on character and spacing.

The only other thing bad about it is it is character dependent. But... Idk, maybe thats a reasonable thing to have in this instance.

Still though, 7.6k isnt to great, but it is nowhere near bad either.

The throw combos are still pretty bad, but looking at ips again i never realized that my otg pickup was level 2, which means that i can do 3 loops off of throw instead of just 2. Damage being about 5.7k... Not great but not terrible either.

This might make double better for me, might not. Still though she seems lacking in regard to other charcters buffs but will have to experiment with the new combos. Sage is right about using otg with a car ender though... But i guess thats just one of those things.
 
Dime_x said:
@RemiKz combo is actually on point. I didnt like it at first because no st.mk x2 and that scales damage, so i thought cr.mk was just a terrible damage modifier combo vid only move...but looking at it on the frames and it is less on block than st.mk.... Obviously dont get to stagger another mk like with st.mk on block... But cr.hp can be staggered instead.

And now with the new mp shot, the entire string on block varies from -4 to -1 depending on character and spacing.

The only other thing bad about it is it is character dependent. But... Idk, maybe thats a reasonable thing to have in this instance.

Still though, 7.6k isnt to great, but it is nowhere near bad either.

The throw combos are still pretty bad, but looking at ips again i never realized that my otg pickup was level 2, which means that i can do 3 loops off of throw instead of just 2. Damage being about 5.7k... Not great but not terrible either.

This might make double better for me, might not. Still though she seems lacking in regard to other charcters buffs but will have to experiment with the new combos. Sage is right about using otg with a car ender though... But i guess thats just one of those things.

No one ends barrel loops with car unless it'll kill, so no need to end the combo that uses an otg with car unless it'll kill either. It's more damage loaded towards the front compared to the barrel loop as well which is good for reset purposes.

I've toyed with ending barrel loops with HP xx Flesh Step and then trying to be cute with j.HK oki. Haven't put too much time into Double recently but do people even try this and how effective is it? j.HK is another REALLY GOOD attack that Double has.
 
Car is invincible for forever and post-flash unblockable at point blank range and has a gigantic hitbox. Yeah, its not a meterless reversal but not everybody gets a meterless reversal. Its at least as good as Dynamo and a lot better than anything that PW, Val or Squigly (without dragon stance charge) have available to them.

7.6K is enough to two-touch somebody which is a major break point in terms of damage output. Its good enough.

Throw combos.. most characters get in the 5-6K range for 1 bar with a throw combo unless you've got an assist adding damage in there.

Her mixup options could be buffed a little, sure, but honestly she always struck me as the sort of character who waits for their opponent to fuck up, rather than rush that shit down.
 
Jason said:
Car is [..] at least as good as Dynamo
27424758d1394748813-fansproject-stunticons-menasor-aka-m3-intimidator-notsureifserious.jpg
 
Dime_x said:
Still though, 7.6k isnt to great, but it is nowhere near bad either.

The throw combos are still pretty bad, but looking at ips again i never realized that my otg pickup was level 2, which means that i can do 3 loops off of throw instead of just 2. Damage being about 5.7k... Not great but not terrible either.
7.6k midscreen is really good. That's more damage than Fortune, Filia, Parasoul, Squigly(?), and Val can put out. The fact that that's more than 50% life is good enough.
5.7k off of a throw is also really good (if that's her actual damage off a throw). Especially since you don't have to spend meter to actually convert.

I don't know anything about her corner and counterhit damage compared to other characters, though.
 
This filia height change thing affects the jhk adc restand a lot. You used to be able to just j hk rising from the launch and then adc, but now j hk doesn't hit on the way up for a lot of the cast. This gets rid of things like duckator launch string (launch jhk adc jlk jmp j hk restand), jhk xx hk airball adc into big ground bounce from cr hp, and a lot of the time, from duck's string even if you do adjust to the character you're hitting (like delaying the j hk on the way up) either the jhk doesn't restand or it just doesn't come out at all.

edit: this also gets rid of things like being able to crossup with j hk after doing launch jhp adc jlk delay jhk
edit2: this also gets rid of combo options like in the corner when you do jhp jhk xx hk airball adc jmk jhp (somegroundstring to combo after jhp hits). The jhp just flat out doesn't come out like it used to
 
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@keninblack

I'm not sure about BB being better point than Double. BB has to make guesses. He wins on the merit of the opponent making shitty moves. Things like A-Train, Brass, and even the all-might BE are all highly, highly punishable. And once he gets locked down? His best option is mash, mash, mash and we all know it by now.

Double wins on merit. I've never (rarely) been beat by a Double and felt like it was a result of shitty luck or a bad guess. I feel straight up out-played. She has the tools she needs to wrap it up.

I like that she has some weaknesses. It makes her interesting. The characters with one of everything (even if balanced) are so freaking boring.
 
welp no fast AA normals or even specials with a decent hitbox (luger shot has a great hitbox right :P) but can do catheads for 2 meter or she has lackluster pressure outside of that. Also, the fact that lk bomber has vuln startup is pretty annoying in general i think since she has few outs, and most cost meter, that are really unsafe on block too'
 
RemiKz said:
No one ends barrel loops with car unless it'll kill, so no need to end the combo that uses an otg with car unless it'll kill either. It's more damage loaded towards the front compared to the barrel loop as well which is good for reset purposes.

I've toyed with ending barrel loops with HP xx Flesh Step and then trying to be cute with j.HK oki. Haven't put too much time into Double recently but do people even try this and how effective is it? j.HK is another REALLY GOOD attack that Double has.

Yes correct that no one/few people end with car. But it does happen sometimes such as when you dont want to go for a reset when you dont know the ramifications for the reset.

St.hp into j.hk oki is dubious. It cant be done off of throw starters for 1 and for 2 it doesnt setup any real dangerous mixups that i know of, its mostly a good way to keep pressure on the opponent. Which isnt worthless, but as a combo ender you want something a little better than sustained pressure... This is sg we are talking about where most charcters enders get 3 way unseeable mixups into pressure on block.

Of course there may be undiscovered tech with it, ive found ambiguous stuff, but it can be frame and character specific to boot..
Just to get the opponent to mash some safe on block reversal out since its a big ol huge sign that a mixup is coming.
 
IsaVulpes said:
27424758d1394748813-fansproject-stunticons-menasor-aka-m3-intimidator-notsureifserious.jpg

Well Car has the taller hitbox on the first active frame (which is the one with the hitstop), and more invul frames.

Dynamo gets you a combo in the corner and reaches a bit a further forward on the first active frame.

I'm really not seeing how Dynamo is soooooooo much better than Car.

So PLEASE enlighten me instead of posting sarcastic reaction images and adding nothing to the conversation, K?
 
On the other hand, there are a lot of different new restands now, and new things you can do to get +frames into reset. But I don't understand why its needs to be changed so arbitrarily. Like, she can do the same things before. Just now you have to do different things to do the same stuff for no reason. And it appears that she just straight up loses setups and stuff because of this change, and I am not a fan of that. I understand that this change could make new tech, but she was so close to being perfect as a char before I feel. I don't mind the hurtbox changes or anything like that, but the height thing just seems odd. Like, what situations did she truly "randomly" fall out of stuff due to this height thing?
Edit: another thing she lost is sideswitch combos, so now if you happy birthday with your back to the corner, you can't do launch jhp adc jlk jhk to switch sides and get the double snap.
 
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RemiKz said:
Could Filia always restand Val with HP, j.HK, adc, j.LP, j.HK? Because she totally can now.
She can restand with things like jhk adc jmk (1 hit) jhk as well, or adc jmp (1-2hits) jhk now as well
 
dekillsage said:
Cerebella's damage is the same as it was in MDE.
The only thing that changed was undizzy.
There are fundamental differences in Bella's damage, from my perspective, from MDE to Encore. Not big differences, but important ones. In MDE I could kill 1v2 off of c.lk from like 80% of the screen, and v3's die anywhere. I could also kill Double anywhere on the screen from c.lk with a bar and a half (@mcpeanuts probably remembers this, it was really bad).
That one could switch the Devil Horns for a c.mk and still get enough to kill v2's, meaning Parasoul and Cerebella and wonky hitbox characters weren't safe.
I was literally almost at the point where I didn't need to think or try for resets cause I did so much damage that it didn't matter cause if I touched it it died. The only times I had to think were off weird stray hits (like Horns or Kanchou or MGR or whatever).

Now, I can TOD v3 almost anywhere, but I need a HCH to guarantee it, and it is a necessity for it to TOD v2 (off normal starters for only 2 bars).

Edit: These are all good things imo. I almost stopped playing cause I thought it was stupid that I didn't need to be good at reading my opponent after c.lk.
 
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RemiKz said:
I've toyed with ending barrel loops with HP xx Flesh Step and then trying to be cute with j.HK oki. Haven't put too much time into Double recently but do people even try this and how effective is it? j.HK is another REALLY GOOD attack that Double has.

I do this, it's very effective as a conditioning tool. The first time you do it, just do avery, block and watch what they do. If they super, you get a full punish. If they upback, then go for lows next time. If they downback, go for throws conditioning into low/throw mixup before avery hits.

If they block avery, you can also do low/throw after they block/pushblock it, as well as assist left-rights if you're midscreen once they're conditioned to only expect low/throw.

Edit: Also +1 for giving double the ability to chain standing and crouching LPs into each other.
 
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