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Administrative PSA: Big changes are coming to Skullheart!

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Where am I going to get my copypasta from now...

RIP
 
I just don't think I get who this helps.
Does it help people who more or less exclusively post in Gameplay and tech threads? I don't think removing a piece of the forum that they never went to anyway.
Does this help people who just post OT? Obviously not, the sub-forum where they did that is dead now.
Does it help people who post in both? Well, now they can only post in one, and if they were posting in both to begin with, one assumes they enjoyed posting OT, so now their enjoyment is reduced.
Does it help new people? Maybe, but as I said before, if their interest is largely in Gameplay exclusively, than it's three clicks and they're where they want to be.
I don't even think that it would help the make the mod's jobs any easier. Granted, I can't exactly speak from experience in the subject, but completely overhauling the forum and introducing stricter rules to enforce doesn't seem like the best way to reduce workload.
So I guess my question, to whoever wants to answer, is who does this help?
If someone could answer that for me, I would be very thankful.
 
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I've loved fighting games since my sister and I walked into a Blockbuster on a summer day, saw a sumo palming a huge eye-patched due in shorts in the SNES section. I love playing the games, but I don't know OTG from a OTP (uguuu Senpai!) but I absolutely eat up the lore. Street Fighter, Darkstalkers, Bloody Roar, KoF, I devour all the obscure info I can find inorder to appreciate the world more. I might discuss mechanics I want to see in a future SF game or something, but not at length, instead I'll be talking about "what X means for the sequel" I didn't post much in the OT section, but would check it out on occasion.

I've been part of Comic forums, movie forums, even voice acting forums, and they all have off topic sections. I see them as safety nets to one, keep things clean and separate from main discussions, but two, a good way to ease into the main forum. See what other people like to talk about, make connections and friendships and jump on in. Less intimidating in my opinion than just being a new player and member and going into a thread discussion intense fighter lingo and being nervous about getting things wrong and putting your foot into your mouth. It's not always the case, but, eh, I think OT doesn't hurt.

You guy are making your choice, I get that, I respect that, but I just am in the camp of people who don't understand what ultimately this will accomplish. Oh well...
 
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MMan7172 said:
I don't even think that it would help the make the mod's jobs any easier. Granted, I can't exactly speak from experience in the subject, but completely overhauling the forum and introducing stricter rules to enforce doesn't seem like the best way to reduce workload.
So I guess my question, to whoever wants to answer, is who does this help?
If someone could answer that for me, I would be very thankful.

Allow me to be facetious for a moment. If nobody posts, the moderators won't need to work nearly as hard.

For real though I think people can find a common ground here. OT was probably a mess that needed cleaning. I just don't know if this was the best way to go about it, but I can see where this is coming from. I also doubt it will be very effective at focusing discussion in quite the way some people would like it to be.
 
is one of the changes that you finally got sick of me?
Cause I can't post anywhere lol.
 
This level of salt really takes me back to the Waifu War days.
 
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Cleared out most of the page. Anyone who decides to spam messages not related to this news post will be infracted and have their post deleted. Be considerate for the people who want to have their opinions heard.
 
It is kinda depressing, but I'm not going to go ahead and call all the mods dictators or fucking assholes (Even though in the past, I used to think of some of the mods on here as such). I do think that removing off topic will hurt this place in the long run, but unfortunately we don't seem to have a choice in this. I do see WHY they are doing it (there was a bunch of garbage threads in off topic), but in the long run, yeah this won't be good for this place. I did hear a steam group was made that people can join...seems like a lot of people will probably migrate there.
 
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Users that continued to post spam after I asked them to stop have been issued a warning for repeated spam. Please try to show even some small shred of restraint, particularly when a mod specifically tells you to stop. All related spam posts from before I gave a warning have simply been deleted.
 
I will still use this forum to learn useful tech and see some matches. But I guess I will barely post, since I don't have enough knowledge to contribute for the discussions and I'm a crappy player myself. Also, with the moderators being this rigid, I'm afraid of posting something that could be interpreted as off-topic
 
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Raging_Zoroark said:
I will still use this forum to learn useful tech and see some matches. But I guess I will barely post, since I don't have enough knowledge to contribute for the discussions and I'm a crappy player myself. Also, with the moderators being this rigid, I'm afraid of posting something that could be interpreted as off-topic
I haven't been banned yet, so if you wanna make sure you're on the right track just check my post history for examples of Great Posting
 
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BrandX+ said:
I do see WHY they are doing it (there was a bunch of garbage threads in off topic)
If there's garbage in my room, I clean the garbage and enjoy a healthy living space. I don't seal the room and never go in there again. But this isn't my room, so I have no say in the matter.
 
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Zidiane said:
If there's garbage in my room, I clean the garbage and enjoy a healthy living space. I don't seal the room and never go in there again. But this isn't my room, so I have no say in the matter.
The only thing in your room is a coffin and other satonic vampire things.

Can confirm.
 
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Uhhh.

I s'pose I'm one of those garbage folk who spend 98% of their time on OT threads. Why? Two reasons come to mind. The first is I guess joining competitive-centric SG discussions is sort've intimidating. I adore SG to pieces, and there have been times where I've tried to 'git gud' and did semi-well at that, but like a lot of other OT-goers, I'm not invested enough to play SG all the time. One could argue that 'doesn't make me a real fan of the game.' Well, that may be true, but that's a whole other can of worms that could be opened if one wishes to open it.

The other reason? I fucking love the community. Both sides. The casual, calm and funny dudes that hang out on OT threads and the extremely kind and helpful folks who are great at the game and try to teach others how to be great as well. And I personally don't want to lose either side. Sacrificing one in order to attempt to help the other grow is foolish.
 
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The general feel and tone of this thread with regard to the moderators seems to be:

"We are doing you guys a disservice so we will allow you to voice your complaints in this thread, we, however will not actually be listening to your complaints as any kind of valid response to get things changed back to the way they were, or for some sort of compromise to be found"


Which i find to be exceptionally dictatorial and condescending, but with a light hand that tries to insult our intelligence.

Idk at this point if i should even be mad. More fighting games are coming out and ive found a new main in a new game that i really like and could even possibly eclipse my fondness for pw.

So when the forum implodes on its own inactivity... I will have somewhere else to go... So... Perhaps the sky isnt falling afterall.


None of us are beholden to this place and there ARE other options out there (just none so far with that ggpo) but i digress.
 
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Raging_Zoroark said:
I will still use this forum to learn useful tech and see some matches. But I guess I will barely post, since I don't have enough knowledge to contribute for the discussions and I'm a crappy player myself. Also, with the moderators being this rigid, I'm afraid of posting something that could be interpreted as off-topic

Much like many people on Dustloop, I feel like you have the wrong idea about the gameplay discussion threads/forums. While it's true that sharing combos and tech is an important part of the discussion in these areas, helping beginners and weaker players is pretty much just as important a part of the gameplay discussion areas (in my opinion, it's the most important part)

You shouldn't shy away from posting in the gameplay discussion areas because you consider yourself crappy. You should use that as your excuse to post there. If you're having trouble with a combo, post about what's giving you trouble and ask for tips. If you are having a hard time dealing with a matchup or setup, post about what's troubling you and ask for advice. If you're reading a discussion and people are using terms you aren't familiar with or you aren't 100% clear about like chicken blocking, PBGCing, double snaps, etc, politely ask people to explain it to you. If you focus on posting about stuff that'll help you improve as a player, I'm sure you'll find plenty to post about in the gameplay threads.
 
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RurouniLoneWolf said:
Much like many people on Dustloop, I feel like you have the wrong idea about the gameplay discussion threads/forums. While it's true that sharing combos and tech is an important part of the discussion in these areas, helping beginners and weaker players is pretty much just as important a part of the gameplay discussion areas (in my opinion, it's the most important part)

You shouldn't shy away from posting in the gameplay discussion areas because you consider yourself crappy. You should use that as your excuse to post there. If you're having trouble with a combo, post about what's giving you trouble and ask for tips. If you are having a hard time dealing with a matchup or setup, post about what's troubling you and ask for advice. If you're reading a discussion and people are using terms you aren't familiar with or you aren't 100% clear about like chicken blocking, PBGCing, double snaps, etc, politely ask people to explain it to you. If you focus on posting about stuff that'll help you improve as a player, I'm sure you'll find plenty to post about in the gameplay threads.

A lot of trouble people have isn't going to be related to stuff that can be discussed, though. Much of it is just stuff that you need to grind out, like practicing certain combos, testing character-specific setups in training mode, and learning to buck your own bad habits. There's not a lot to talk about there. If someone is having trouble with a combo the most likely solution is to keep trying, and that has nothing to do with posting on Skullheart.

BrandX+ said:
I did hear a steam group was made that people can join...seems like a lot of people will probably migrate there.

I'm interested in hearing more about this.
 
gold163 said:
A lot of trouble people have isn't going to be related to stuff that can be discussed, though. Much of it is just stuff that you need to grind out, like practicing certain combos, testing character-specific setups in training mode, and learning to buck your own bad habits. There's not a lot to talk about there. If someone is having trouble with a combo the most likely solution is to keep trying, and that has nothing to do with posting on Skullheart.
.

I disagree. A lot of the time, combos don't actually need to be grinded unless there is a particular part of it that has very tight timing or execution. In a lot of the cases for beginners, the issue is in reality that they don't understand what the timing is for something or how a specific part of the combo works and they just don't realize it. Testing character specific setups on your own in training mode is honestly pretty tough. If you're not very knowledgeable, it's very easy to overlook options that can both work for you and against you. I'd definitely recommend getting advice for this sort of stuff when you're first starting out. And finally, in order to get rid of bad habits, you have to know what are the good ones, which players might not know. Asking about what others do in these situations can give a lot of insight and help a lot in these cases.
 
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Flotilla said:
Be considerate for the people who want to have their opinions heard.
I don't see any indication that our voices are being heard, though? It seems like no matter what anyone says it doesn't matter because it's not open for discussion. And if that's the case, why bother punishing Bonk as if he's doing us a disservice by interrupting our complaints if our complaints don't matter? Why not just post the thread and leave it not open to reply?

I mean, if we are being listened to, please, tell me. But I've asked "does it matter what the people who don't want this say or think" a few times and mods chose to respond to the guy being disruptive or the guy being insulting instead of me (or any of the other people having doubts or who are discussing leaving). I'm not trying to say you guys are assholes or anything, but I've seen nothing in the realm of addressing calm or reasonably worded complaints. All I've heard is "we've discussed it, among ourselves, and even though even some of us have reservations still, and we predicted many of you (the loyal Skullgirls fans who have some of you stuck with the game from the beginning) would be upset as well, we're pushing through with this anyway."
 
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This thread is purely for venting, for allowing everyone to shout and get tired. Mods are here to announce, not negotiate, that became clear fast enough.
The only non-negative responses I see are either "I don't visit offtopic so I don't care" or "I was considering leaving anyway". I see very few gameplay regulars go "this will help".

Despite the lack of positive feedback, moderators are unphased in their decision. I mostly get a defeatist acceptance vibe from them though, like this with all of the reactions and consequences is exactly what they intended to do, even though not necessarily what they wanted to do.

If my hunch is correct, question would be who and why is pushing their hands. Domain/server owner requiring only specific content to be on the site? Mike/Lab Zero demanding this or that from the forum? I'd like some honesty on the plan behind it all, though I'm not expecting we'll get any.
 
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Zidiane said:
I don't see any indication that our voices are being heard, though? It seems like no matter what anyone says it doesn't matter because it's not open for discussion. And if that's the case, why bother punishing Bonk as if he's doing us a disservice by interrupting our complaints if our complaints don't matter? Why not just post the thread and leave it not open to reply?

I mean, if we are being listened to, please, tell me. But I've asked "does it matter what the people who don't want this say or think" a few times and mods chose to respond to the guy being disruptive or the guy being insulting instead of me (or any of the other people having doubts or who are discussing leaving). I'm not trying to say you guys are assholes or anything, but I've seen nothing in the realm of addressing calm or reasonably worded complaints. All I've heard is "we've discussed it, among ourselves, and even though even some of us have reservations still, and we predicted many of you (the loyal Skullgirls fans who have some of you stuck with the game from the beginning) would be upset as well, we're pushing through with this anyway."

Even if things will continue to go forward, it's good to know where members of the community stand. Some community members have already brought up legitimate issues that we'll be addressing as the week goes on, and we encourage the community to continue giving us (constructive!) feedback.

Muro said:
If my hunch is correct, question would be who and why is pushing their hands. Domain/server owner requiring only specific content to be on the site? Mike/Lab Zero demanding this or that from the forum? I'd like some honesty on the plan behind it all, though I'm not expecting we'll get any.

These changes were decided solely by the moderators and administrators of Skullheart through the feedback of community members. Lab Zero Games was not involved, and no one was forcing us to do anything.
 
I strongly disagree with the removal of the Off-Topic section. I believe having an OT section is healthy for any forum because it allows people who share a common interest in whatever the forum is about to discuss other topics of interest with people they came to know on that forum and do not keep contact in another form, for whatever reason they have for that.

Since the best post we had explaining the reasons for this decision was Flotilla's, I'll talk about it.
In his post he states the biggest reasons for this decision were that Skulheart encouraged people to talk about things unrelated to Skullgirls and that the forums in their current state could scare off new players.

First of all. Why is Skullheart encouraging people to discuss things unrelated to Skullgirls? The OT section is not in a special place to attract posters. The best justification I saw for this was the fact that OT threads may clutter the Recent Threads section. And that came with the suggestion of simply making it so OT threads do not appear in that section.

Then comes the issue of Skullheart in its current state keeping new players away.
How is the OT section responsible for this? Practically every forum has an OT section. SRK for example has a Fighting Game Discussion for games that do not have their own forums, a General Discussion section to talk about anything and a Tech Talk section to talk about hardware/software. Smashboards has a General Gaming Discussion, a General Discussion, a Nintendo Discussion, an Arts and Entertainment section, a Debate section and a Forum Games section. Does having these keep people away from the games discussed in those forums? Does it make those forums any less respectable in the FGC?

Like @Zidiane said. Having off topic sections might even make people feel less intimidated by the game and more interested in taking it more seriously.
Zidiane said:
If I go to a forum and I'm not immediately invested, I usually can't find any reason to go back. Turning visitors into lurkers should be the goal, and it's hard to make someone want to lurk with limited lurking materials. I'm going to give you guys an example of a potential forum-goer.

Let's say "Tim" picks up Skullgirls, kicks it around for a week, but can't quite figure it out. He decides to look for a forum, and finds us. He looks around, doesn't have any questions he's willing to ask, but can't quite get a grasp on how to play just yet. While he's contemplating sticking around and making an account, he decides to look through all the subforums (maybe he'll see something he can more easily understand) and finds the Chess thread. He's a big Chess fan, and enjoys listening to Isa talk about chess. He makes an account to leave a comment, then gets distracted on Reddit.

The next day he remembers he left a comment, so goes back to check if there was a reply, and there was. Before he checks the reply, he sees in the recent threads section a witty title for someone's Training Diary. He decides to click on it. He gets to know Gllt's, the funny thread creator's, struggles to git gud. And while doing that, he notices that Isa also takes part in gameplay discussions. Tim is still not ready to partake in gameplay discussions, but now, little by little, he's getting more invested in lurking in gameplay threads. All thanks to the off-topic chess thread.

This is the type of Skullgirls player that we will never see again. If they end up on Skullheart, they're at one point interested in Skullgirls. Shutting off avenues that keep them coming back is not good.

I'm particularly not very interested in posting the OT section. But I do enjoy reading some OT stuff from time to time when I come here looking for gameplay discussions and new things to try out. It was mostly because of the OT threads that I came to like the people who post here. And because of that I made an account. And also because of that I decided to make a training diary to see if that would help me take practicing more seriously. So far it's working.

Now if there are concerns about the quality of the discussion in the OT section, then it's important to make sure the forum's rules do not allow innapropriate content to be posted. And it's the Moderators' job to make sure those rules are followed. Removing the OT section is killing the patient to cure a flu.
 
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Mr. X said:
I also dont like having to be hush about the logic behind this move.

wait a tic
so is there more logic and reasoning behind this change that we don't know about?
 
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Flotilla said:
These changes were decided solely by the moderators and administrators of Skullheart through the feedback of community members. Lab Zero Games was not involved, and no one was forcing us to do anything.

What sort of feedback have you been getting before the big change? I'd like to know what spurred on the crackdown.
 
Muro said:
This thread is purely for venting, for allowing everyone to shout and get tired. Mods are here to announce, not negotiate, that became clear fast enough.

If my hunch is correct, question would be who and why is pushing their hands. Domain/server owner requiring only specific content to be on the site? Mike/Lab Zero demanding this or that from the forum? I'd like some honesty on the plan behind it all, though I'm not expecting we'll get any.
I know that all too. I'm trying to post to clearly state my stance rather than just go "yup" and leave (nothing against those who are doing that). If something could have changed but didn't, I don't want to wonder if something I could have said might've made a difference.

And Lab Zero has been pretty transparent, and none of them have posted here, so I would doubt it's them (even if the mods didn't deny their involvement).
Flotilla said:
Even if things will continue to go forward, it's good to know where members of the community stand. Some community members have already brought up legitimate issues that we'll be addressing as the week goes on, and we encourage the community to continue giving us (constructive!) feedback.
I'm still very much troubled. But I'm glad to know it isn't goin in one ear and out the other. And I can respect the "we're taking this period to asses the community's reactions, and when all input is given, we will make any additional changes we feel are necessary". It was just a little eerie not getting that earlier (unless I missed that post).
 
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Muro said:
Dunno about "official" groups, but I mentioned these two if you're interested.

Thanks for rolling out the welcoming mat, Muro.

So, as Muro mentioned, one of the two groups is the BnB. It's a descendant of the Unofficial Official Temporary Skullheart group I made over a year ago, when Skullheart was down and SG was announced for steam. Muro and more have been with me for over the span of that time, and even if it's not the same group, the intention is the same; to bring a fighting game community together. Since then we've expanded on games, so it's not soley Skullgirls, but we don't turn anyone away based on their preference. We do ask that you respect one another, regardless of what game they do play. We have all kinds of people in the group, and somehow we manage to coexist peacefully. I modeled the group after Skullheart long ago; come for the game, stay for the community.

Even if Skullheart has lost its way, we haven't.

If you decided to join us, then we welcome you.
 
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Talking about Not-Skullgirls on Skullheart?

Welcome to Skullheart!

... is what we're trying to get away from.

The Official Skullgirls Forum should actually BE official and not just your backyard to talk about not-Skullgirls with a passing interest in Skullgirls.

The fact that a good portion of people come here, the supposed central discussion hub for Skullgirls, to talk about not-Skullgirls makes it a joke of a forum.

This restructuring is supposed to focus discussion on Skullgirls, whether it be casual or competitive. It is not dividing casual Skullgirls and competitive Skullgirls, it's dividing non-Skullgirls from Skullgirls.

konkrete said:
Skullheart would be (much) better if it started without an off topic section.
But it didn't, so you have to hold that shit imo. Just gives people the wrong antagonizing vibe to up and change it now. I would love to see stricter rules for OT in place if it were to stay, though.
It started with an off-topic because it started as a fan forum. When we were told "Hey, you're the official forum now!" no one took it seriously.
Now we are.

If it makes everyone feel better, although the off-topic forums will be locked and eventually hidden from public view, they will not be deleted.

This means that we can reinstate that forum upon a later date.

We're still in a transition period and some things will still be getting moved around, added, or removed, not just in terms of threads, but in certain forum applications as well.

Although we're making big changes, it doesn't mean we aren't listening to you. We are taking all valid points into consideration in case things don't work out as planned with these changes.

This is not the end of the world, and you do have a voice.

Thank you, and please keep an open mind as we move forward.
 
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worldjem said:
... is what we're trying to get away from.

The Official Skullgirls Forum should actually BE official and not just your backyard to talk about not-Skullgirls with a passing interest in Skullgirls.

The fact that a good portion of people come here, the supposed central discussion hub for Skullgirls, to talk about not-Skullgirls makes it a joke of a forum.

Except that's the way every forum works. I can't say I've visited one big forum that didn't have a thriving off topic forum which constituted a huge part of its activity. And no, having even more activity on off topic doesn't constitute a problem, there's only so much anyone can discuss on one genre, let alone one game. Not to mention not every poster is going to feel confident in contributing discussion to a competitive game that could take years to fully understand.

Even it was true that "nice big official forums don't have active off-topics" (which it's not), in no way will disposing of off topic posts in any way help the rest of the forums. There is nothing rational about this action and no redeeming qualities or advantages.
 
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Mr. X said:
Just was told I don't have to be hush, which means I'm confused why the lack of honesty and transparency in the opening post then.

The lack of transparency was because these changes were supposed to roll out around a week from now, and it was assumed that not every detail of what we were going to do was finalized. Instead, the changes began only a day after and now the OP looks a tad bit dishonest. I'll be making an edit to it to explain exactly what has already happened, and why.
 
worldjem said:
The Official Skullgirls Forum should actually BE official and not just your backyard to talk about not-Skullgirls with a passing interest in Skullgirls.
Screenshots from the official Playstation, Nintendo, and Capcom forums (just the first three official companies I could think of). They all have OT sections.
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If a larger percentage of users than you'd like happen to use the OT section, that doesn't mean you nuke it.
 
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Kinda off-topic, but I was unaware Nintendo had an official forum. How recent is it?
 
I mentioned this earlier, but I think it needs to be restated. Off topic forums can actually help the activity of "on topic" boards. People will check in on the forum more often and as a result will end up getting sucked into "on topic" boards more often. Getting rid of off topic means people are going to have one less reason to check in on the forum every day. Overall activity will drop.

There's really only so much you can discuss one game to be honest. Unless your spamming and posting garbage and redundant threads, but don't expect to get half as much activity now.
 
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worldjem said:
The fact that a good portion of people come here, the supposed central discussion hub for Skullgirls, to talk about not-Skullgirls makes it a joke of a forum.

On top of what has already been brought up, to whom is this a 'joke of a forum' to? Who's respect are you trying to earn by removing OT? Do you and the other members of the mod team just not like that Skullheart wasn't just Skullgirls talk? If so, it seems a bit egotistical to think you that and maybe 10 other peoples views are enough to warrant the locking of a good 70 or so threads. Hell, if there was as much discussion as we are being told there was about the issue among the team, then it wasn't even the entire mod staff backing the decision. At this point I'm done being angry, I'm just curious as to the series of events that lead to this decision being passed.
 
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