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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Spencer said:
Why the Val scaling change?
Because the change already opened up new conversion opportunities and higher damaging combos. Before you either needed j.MP or MK Bomber to convert off of j.HK but now you can OTG with Bypass which let you do less scaled combos.
 
Flotilla said:
Why is that an issue? Is Sekhmet not allowed to be good for anything but her summon crossups and as a combo extender?
dude......not even gonna try. but ok then let sekhmet rock then
 
cloudKing211 said:
Although I will gladly accept the buff(er), all it does is make both her midscreen (7.6k) and corner optimized BnB (7.8k) easier. Y

Just an FYI your corner probably isn't very optimized if you are only getting 7.8k because I can do 7.4k meterless off a c.LK that I'm pretty sure is universal and not very hard at all.

But yeah not sure why spiral got an input buffer after. It was already something like a 3f link? Not a big deal either way but yeah.
 
RemiKz said:
Just an FYI your corner probably isn't very optimized if you are only getting 7.8k because I can do 7.4k meterless off a c.LK that I'm pretty sure is universal and not very hard at all.

But yeah not sure why spiral got an input buffer after. It was already something like a 3f link? Not a big deal either way but yeah.
What route are you using and are you using sehkmet? Just wondering?
 
cloudKing211 said:
What route are you using and are you using sehkmet? Just wondering?
c.LK, c.MP, HK, 623MP > HP,
j.HK, adc, j.HK, 214MP > HP, recall,
MP, 236HK,
LK, MKx2, HPx3, 214LK,
LPx3, MKx2, HPx3,

623LP > MP > HP > air super = 8.2k ender

214KH > Lady of Slaughter = 8.7k ender?

214LK = 7.2k ender?

Don't remember the exact numbers
 
Ryin said:
That's not meterless.
No but you make just as much during the combo so its meter neutral. In fact you make a little more than what you started with.
 
I didn't notice the patch notes until just a little bit ago, because Mike mentioned them when I was asking about something irrelevant. May as well share my thoughts here too, if anyone wants to read them.

The change to Solo health regain seems odd. It's a buff, which is infinitely better than no buff, but it just seems like the times you'll (I'll) feel the effects dropped significantly. I'll get chunk of health back for using a bar to snap out an assist, which is another incentive to do that, but I very rarely want to snap out the point. Most of the time getting a good hit means that character is dead. And if I don't kill it, I want it to stay in so I can finish it.

This'll help for trying to kill that wounded character they're trying to let heal (either from taking too much damage from assist calls or after tagging/DHCing/ACing out), but usually when I land a hit on the new point I either can kill it (v3) or my effort and meter is better spent going for the one reset that'll end with a dead character (v2). And even in the situations where I can't kill that point, I feel safer staring at a critically wounded character with an uncallable assist (cause it'd die if it gets called) than I would staring at a critically wounded point with an only partially wounded assist (cause I stopped the combo early to snap).

I know this is probably more Solobella related than Solo in general, I think some of the other solo characters can't quite kill 1v3 off of c.lk (for 2 bars), but what I know is all I can share.

About Kanchou, I sorta liked that it whiffed on Big Band. It's nice that it no longer whiffs on crouching Peacock, but vs Big Band I liked being forced to have a second combo ready. Now it sorta feels like the game is telling me "yes, do Kanchou" rather than "IDK, figure something out, there's like a million billion million different combos". But I guess that's probably just another weird me-specific thing.

Aside from that, love that Elbow feels like a usable tool now. I have a second option for an overhead, one that isn't fickle about who it hits where!

MGR losing hit invincibility seems like it'll hurt quite a bit. I was starting to get the hang of actually using it to limit my opponents actions and force them to act how I wanted them to rather than just as a mixup tool. I was using it to stop people from like wakeup Dynamo into safe DHC (which I can't think of a real non-hard-read-that'll-get-me-killed-if-I-guessed-wrong alternative to).

Damage nerf on Cerecopter doesn't bother me on paper, but it effects something else; check the next spoiler

Last thing, something that pertains specifically to SoloBella, is damage output. It's not simply "I'm doing less damage now", the increased health across the board and the reduced cerecopter damage means that the game I'm playing has significantly changed when fighting duos.

I no longer seem to be able to kill anything 1v2 with a HCH (and reasonable meter), and 1v2 I'm having a hard time killing off of a grab reset (even using DDrop, Dynamo reset into the corner). Even if there's some small bit of optimization that I overlooked cause I was already killing before, the amount of health remaining doesn't look like it can be covered with any small amount of extra optimization. This change will also force me to use non-grab resets if I want to kill anything, which'll make my grabs not nearly as much a threat (I'm a grappler tho).

Additionally, under the current beta system, HCH combo routes are almost not worth learning as SoloBella since you can't kill anything with them that you couldn't otherwise. Even with characters who're already injured, it doesn't seem like a very large margin that you'll need to know a HCH combo for. The only difference will be if you get a HCH after they've been caught by a stray hit or two, as after a combo (even a short one) they'll die to a full NCH combo.
 
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I'm not necessarily defending that solo should be able to kill off of one or two touches.

That said, to take that away from solo is a pretty sizeable nerf as that is the one bit of respect that teams have to give to solo. They cannot afford to take meaningless hits and so (in theory, but usually not in practice) they can't afford to take huge risks. Whereas solo is often heavily based around huge risks... or in other words, sometimes we have to throw our health at a problem because we can often end up on top of the exchange.

We'll see how the extra health plus healing helps deal with what is effectively a damage nerf. It is a fairly even exchange across the board, but I have a feeling this nerf affects solos a bit more than teams.
 
Zidiane said:
I didn't notice the patch notes until just a little bit ago, because Mike mentioned them when I was asking about something irrelevant. May as well share my thoughts here too, if anyone wants to read them.

The change to Solo health regain seems odd. It's a buff, which is infinitely better than no buff, but it just seems like the times you'll (I'll) feel the effects dropped significantly. I'll get chunk of health back for using a bar to snap out an assist, which is another incentive to do that, but I very rarely want to snap out the point. Most of the time getting a good hit means that character is dead. And if I don't kill it, I want it to stay in so I can finish it.

This'll help for trying to kill that wounded character they're trying to let heal (either from taking too much damage from assist calls or after tagging/DHCing/ACing out), but usually when I land a hit on the new point I either can kill it (v3) or my effort and meter is better spent going for the one reset that'll end with a dead character (v2). And even in the situations where I can't kill that point, I feel safer staring at a critically wounded character with an uncallable assist (cause it'd die if it gets called) than I would staring at a critically wounded point with an only partially wounded assist (cause I stopped the combo early to snap).

I know this is probably more Solobella related than Solo in general, I think some of the other solo characters can't quite kill 1v3 off of c.lk (for 2 bars), but what I know is all I can share.

About Kanchou, I sorta liked that it whiffed on Big Band. It's nice that it no longer whiffs on crouching Peacock, but vs Big Band I liked being forced to have a second combo ready. Now it sorta feels like the game is telling me "yes, do Kanchou" rather than "IDK, figure something out, there's like a million billion million different combos". But I guess that's probably just another weird me-specific thing.

Aside from that, love that Elbow feels like a usable tool now. I have a second option for an overhead, one that isn't fickle about who it hits where!

MGR losing hit invincibility seems like it'll hurt quite a bit. I was starting to get the hang of actually using it to limit my opponents actions and force them to act how I wanted them to rather than just as a mixup tool. I was using it to stop people from like wakeup Dynamo into safe DHC (which I can't think of a real non-hard-read-that'll-get-me-killed-if-I-guessed-wrong alternative to).

Damage nerf on Cerecopter doesn't bother me on paper, but it effects something else; check the next spoiler

Last thing, something that pertains specifically to SoloBella, is damage output. It's not simply "I'm doing less damage now", the increased health across the board and the reduced cerecopter damage means that the game I'm playing has significantly changed when fighting duos.

I no longer seem to be able to kill anything 1v2 with a HCH (and reasonable meter), and 1v2 I'm having a hard time killing off of a grab reset (even using DDrop, Dynamo reset into the corner). Even if there's some small bit of optimization that I overlooked cause I was already killing before, the amount of health remaining doesn't look like it can be covered with any small amount of extra optimization. This change will also force me to use non-grab resets if I want to kill anything, which'll make my grabs not nearly as much a threat (I'm a grappler tho).

Additionally, under the current beta system, HCH combo routes are almost not worth learning as SoloBella since you can't kill anything with them that you couldn't otherwise. Even with characters who're already injured, it doesn't seem like a very large margin that you'll need to know a HCH combo for. The only difference will be if you get a HCH after they've been caught by a stray hit or two, as after a combo (even a short one) they'll die to a full NCH combo.
i kinda feel the same way with the Kanchou change on Big Band. I like the ideal of of having things work on some characters and not work on others. gives me more things to go over in traning mode when i'm bored.
 
ashxu said:
Why are you getting so offended? Did you just discover the internet yesterday?
I'm just maybe a bit frustrated. All these Skullheart changes to promote gameplay discussion, as foolish as I think they were, and this is still the first response to me going out of my way to post legit gameplay analysis.

But that's not really a discussion for here.
 
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cloudKing211 said:
Does bypass scale a combo no matter when it's used or when it's the first hit?

Like other forced scaling in the game, if your current damage scaling is better than 66%, Bypass will scale it down to 66%. If you're already at worse than 66% scaling, then it just works like any normal hit.
 
Which means that the damage scaling per hit (in percent):

100/100/100/87.5/76.5/70 and on

So basically if you started a combo with bypass yesterday, your combo scaled as if it were the 5th hit. Today, it scales as if it started at the ~6th hit.

If you use bypass as your 6th hit or later, no scaling changes at all.
 
I guess the new damage was too easy? Where was this unbalanced though? Is it that the reward for a yomi level read with bypass was too good?
 
Zidiane said:
I'm just maybe a bit frustrated. All these Skullheart changes to promote gameplay discussion, as foolish as they were, and this is still the first response to me going out of my way to post legit gameplay analysis.

But that's not really a discussion for here.


The proper response is that bit strife should get a warning or whatever for trolliig/griefing.

But... At the same time..this is what we deal with to have our opinions heard. Its not as though neither one of us hasnt had... Our disagreements. And it aint like i wasnt called names.. Im just saying... Being a non lurker is a privelege that shy people dont have.. And that privelege is paid for by allowing the public to scrutinize what you say, to a certain extent.

Its just a harsh reality that not everyone will agree with you. If an idiot says something off color to you... Defend yourself or make them look stupid. Dont allow them to silencd you though because the only people that benefit from that are said idiots.
 
cloudKing211 said:
I guess the new damage was too easy? Where was this unbalanced though? Is it that the reward for a yomi level read with bypass was too good?

My view, and I could be way wrong here, is that new Val hitting close to 8k mid screen became PW 2.0. They generally fill similar roles and have similar weaknesses, and their dynamic was that Val had better mobility and full screen confirms while PW had better damage. Beta warped that leaving me wondering why you'd pick up PW over Val.

This is obviously a bit overstated, but I think it works as a summary.
 
cloudKing211 said:
I guess the new damage was too easy? Where was this unbalanced though? Is it that the reward for a yomi level read with bypass was too good?
I think Mike is keeping the bypass but doesnt want her doing so much more damage with consideration to rest of her tools.
 
cloudKing211 said:
I guess the new damage was too easy? Where was this unbalanced though? Is it that the reward for a yomi level read with bypass was too good?

I could be wrong, but maybe the change was made because its utility is very good. Valentine could hit someone with her back to the corner, switch sides, and then sliding knockdown the opponent if she wanted too. That's a very strong option she didn't really have before, though I guess she could always just corner carry and do the same thing. I dunno
 
Spencer said:
My view, and I could be way wrong here, is that new Val hitting close to 8k mid screen became PW 2.0. They generally fill similar roles and have similar weaknesses, and their dynamic was that Val had better mobility and full screen confirms while PW had better damage. Beta warped that leaving me wondering why you'd pick up PW over Val.

This is obviously a bit overstated, but I think it works as a summary.
val could always hit 8k midscreen with assists. Corner damage she can get upwards of 8.5k and higher. So i dont see why bypass has a damage issue since its not adding anymore past that without vials. The only area the damage might be high is on stray hits with bypass, which in itself is a hard read. On block its either death, or disadvantage after scalpels and val would have to guess the mixup (grab or hit). Should a tool used in a really risky way not deserve at least a decent reward?
 
The bypass nerf did practically nothing to her damage as long as you didn't use it in your first chain somewhere. She still hits 7.5k+ off a c.LK midscreen with 1 meter and no vial or assist.
 
cloudKing211 said:
val could always hit 8k midscreen with assists. Corner damage she can get upwards of 8.5k and higher. So i dont see why bypass has a damage issue since its not adding anymore past that without vials. The only area the damage might be high is on stray hits with bypass, which in itself is a hard read. On block its either death, or disadvantage after scalpels and val would have to guess the mixup (grab or hit). Should a tool used in a really risky way not deserve at least a decent reward?

I knew she had corner damage. I thought her midscreen damage was pretty specific though?
 
RemiKz said:
The bypass nerf did practically nothing to her damage as long as you didn't use it in your first chain somewhere. She still hits 7.5k+ off a c.LK midscreen with 1 meter and no vial or assist.

Though, you do get less damage off of random air bypass into scalpels.

That's probably what was targeted with this nerf tbh.
 
Zidiane said:
See, this is why I didn't want to share. Trying to discuss the effects of a change and I get this shit.
Honestly, I apologize for that. Came off too dickish. I'm just okay with solos having to put in slightly more work to kill. Though the benefit of running solo is supposed to be damage so we'll see how that works out in the long run.
 
I'm not sure everyone here understands what the "long run" is. The "long run" right now is only a couple of months away.

After robo is released, there is always the possibility of not getting any more balance changes. We HAVE to test heavily, and not just say "we'll see how this changes things in the long run" like we have time.
 
I like the bella changes, give me consistency over damage any day. Really glad the reversal window is back to 4 frames too. Love the extra life, I'm all for combos doing a lower percentage.
 
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Played beta for like 2.5 hours last night, getting back the ability to do reversals is really great :D

The extra 1200 health thing didn't affect my reset game as much as I thought it would. I'm sure if I went into training mode I'd feel it, but just playing the game normally there weren't any situations where I was like "hey wtf you should be dead by now but you're not". This is even with the damage nerfs to Peacock in beta compared to retail. In theory I think it means I need one extra reset to kill, which I like, it means more chances to potentially go back to neutral.
 
I played a beta set against Woofly last night and I love the extra 1200 health. It didn't seem to result in any timeouts or anything, despite lots of matches going back and forth and my Filia/Peacock damage output being awful at the moment.
 
The health boost looks like adding "one more turn" in the match which, with how quick a match can go, I dont see as a bad thing.
 
I didnt like the painwheel change at first... But when do i ever like changes?

Anyways, after having thought about it, i actually like the flight speed nerf to level hatred install. I dont particularly like the increased flight speed though, but i guess i will have to mess with it a bit more, but right now it makes me overshoot my flight normals at neutral which means i have to back off a bit more in neutral if i want to play flight footsies. Its a buff to painwheel getting in but a "nerf" to her ability to be flexible in her upclose ranging.
 
@Dime_x

Is it a nerf so much as it is just an adjustment? It seems like it is just a new thing to get used to; that timing might just need readjusting.
 
Bit_Strife said:
Honestly, I apologize for that. Came off too dickish.
s'all good.
I'm just okay with solos having to put in slightly more work to kill. Though the benefit of running solo is supposed to be damage.
It's hard work already getting in on people solo, it's not like we're willy nilly easy peezy getting TODs. Actually, I'm not even sure how many other solos can kill at which ratios.

But, that's not what I was addressing in my post. More work, less work, whatever. The specific thing I wanted pointed out was that instead of "short combo, reset, death", it's suddenly become a "short combo, grab reset, short combo, reset, death" existing beside "short combo, strike reset, death". It's lopsided my offense. Assuming both players know the game, the other player knows that I don't want to grab for my reset. Most of the strike resets SoloBella has are gimmicky or don't always work, the strongest reliable reset is c.lk/grab. Which becomes 2-dimensional if my opponent knows which option I want to do. The thought process becomes "does he want to kill or does he want to trick me" rather than "has he noticed my tendencies or is he going to predict I change". The focus of the reset becomes me and my character, rather than me and my opponent.
 
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