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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

guitalex2007 said:
At EVO, everyone saw my Eliza and wet their pants.

Then I went on stream to get reset low three times and killed by @Hirokuni

Why? Because I guessed the throw wrong three times trying to protect myself lol

You played Eliza when no one knew what she did and she could heal like 50% of her health solo. Btw, there is no difference between Fukua's weakness to throws and Eliza's weakness to throws. If you jump to avoid a throw, you get a punish off an airdash if you do it fast enough, and that means you get to setplay or just take a full combo which you can end in a hard knockdown or that knockdown you get from her air super. She needs both, apparently.


Also I guess no one noticed the other reasons I hate Eliza, and decided to only talk about how you can't use sek at neutral well, when that doesn't mean anything to me when if I get read at neutral I instantly die for the risk of 1 bar.
 
RemiKz said:
You can try throwing out a 214HP out as a mixup to try to open someone up, but if you fail then you are screwed.
Are you??

guitalex2007 said:
You're forgetting something: pushblock means you won. They spent meter and got nothing for it. Who cares if they went back to Eliza? You're not in a Sekhmet mixup anymore.
If the opponent gets to attempt a "mixup" which deals 10k on hit and is safe on block any time he wants to, I wouldn't call "oh i blocked it this time and didn't lose a character, while he had to invest 1/15th of a bar" much of a win

guitalex2007 said:
Fukua has more tools like instant j.HK counterhits

Eliza's reversal options are [..]
Why are you counting jHK as a Fukua reversal, but not IAD jAnything as an Eliza one?

Tomo009 said:
As it is, if you are really really scared, you could snap.... it will punish anything sekhmet tries to do
Snaps got 12+3 startup, how is that punishing anything
Also GG @ calling Sekhmet a meterwaste and then proposing I may just spend a bar for 0 damage anytime she's on the screen

Honestly, Sekhmet costs meter and has no mixup without assist calls
Why are you taking assists out of the equation?

I'd like a low option on heavies or mediums Though
Sure, let's do that right after we quadrupled her metercost and reduced the armor from unlimited to 2 hits

Broken Loose said:
Look, if you want a 5f punish on Sekhmet, pick Fukua
Fukuas fast command grab is 8f, making it a 1f punish
Unless you're talking about Lv3/Lv5.. In which case I'd ask whether you are serious and then laugh in your face

agent13 said:
  • A lot of mixup blockstrings have big holes in them (albus, horus and chair), you have to use l. osiris or m. osiris for a safe one
What kinda downside is that?? "She has some untrue blockstrings, so you'll have to use the true one instead"?
That's like me listing a Parasoul negative of "Blockstring into Pillar is unsafe, you have to use Tearshot instead"?!
(Aside from the point that Horus/Couch will generally hit you out of your "punish" anyway)

-----

Liza gets to jump at you and calls M.Sekh
If you were pressing a button, you are now going to die
If an assist was out on the screen, it is now going to die
If you weren't pressing a button and didn't call assist and are blocking the following assistcall+mixup correctly, she safely returns to anchor while you are upbacking and shitting your pants
- This sequence has 3 points where you'll lose a character if you guessed something wrong and Eliza spent 1/10th meter.
WHAT. A. WASTE.

Sekhmet gets to jump around on the screen being 100% safe against everything (but like 3 characters) since she can just mash throw - no throw whiff animation means she'll tech if something happens, and have 0f recovery if it doesn't. Why can she tech?!!!?
She can attack you from a range where your throw punish whiffs even if you hit the 2f window - easily
Bonus bonus points when fighting chars like Fukua or Peacock, who have to spend meter to get any sort of damage out of landing that LP+LK

-----

This "Just throw her" and "She doesn't have mixups" and "You just have to learn the matchup"(99% said by theoryfighters and people who happen to main the character) garbage reminds me in each and every way of the same talk I had with people about EVO Fukua
..It was as wrong then as it is now
 
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Calling Sekhmet, to me, seems like "I'm going to spend a bit of bar to do this mixup you can't punish (especially if I call assist) that leads to balls-to-the-walls damage if it hits". Can't you set up the same exact situation with most characters (damage may vary) anyway, just Eliza's spending meter for it and is a spooky skeleton while doing it? Not taking into account her neutral.
 
Not really. I can't read someones reversal and armor through all of it and hit them with like 5k in 3 hits into a full combo.
 
dekillsage said:
Not really. I can't read someones reversal and armor through all of it and hit them with like 5k in 3 hits into a full combo.
Yeah you can, you play Bella.
 
Zidiane said:
Painwheel's Hatred Guard Fly Cancels also are probably a thing.
Loses to DHC in a lot of cases.


I did the math for it too, because I was so confused and thought DHC inputs were allowed during hitstop freeze.
I don't expect anyone to understand this.

frameThrsfsffesher.png


Top is SSJ
Middle is Dynamo
Bottom is Thresher
 
IsaVulpes said:
Sekhmet gets to jump around on the screen being 100% safe against everything (but like 3 characters) since she can just mash throw - no throw whiff animation means she'll tech if something happens, and have 0f recovery if it doesn't. Why can she tech?!!!?

What the hell. I never tried teching with her because I could swear when she was first introduced in Salty Mike said she couldn't tech. (and then I watched the video and he never said that.)
Seriously, she shouldn't be able to tech.

I agree her damage is high, but I still think her neutral options will suffer too much if her blockstun is increased to the point she's trivial to throw.

Anyway, watching that video Mike said could have been vulnerable to sweeps, which I think could be interesting.
 
Skarmand said:
Loses to DHC in a lot of cases.

I did the math for it too, because I was so confused and thought DHC inputs were allowed during hitstop freeze.
Well, Painwheel is garbage at reversals, so I'm not surprised. On that Bella vs Dynamo > SSJ, you should be able to beat it with 360.

Also, yeah, don't understand that graph. Edit: Oh, wait, I was reading it backwards.
 
Zidiane said:
Well, Painwheel is garbage at reversals, so I'm not surprised.
Well it applies to almost every character in that situation.


Graph thing:

It's because on the first active attack frame of your super [Thesher] that was canceled from your armor [jHP], Cerebella (enemy) is still invincible because lol Dynamo

On that first active frame of your [Thresher] attack which whiffs through her (Enemy Cerebella), hitstop (For Thresher) is now over (Since hitstop only lasts until the first active frame and it was just spent whiffing through her)

Now she can input things again, so she does DHC before the next active frame of the super [Thresher] comes out.
Then Big Band comes in with SSJ.

Basically, I just wish invincibility frames didn't last longer than active frames so armor punishes were more real.

Edit:

Also good morning everyone how was your sleep?
 
IsaVulpes said:
Sekhmet gets to jump around on the screen being 100% safe against everything (but like 3 characters) since she can just mash throw - no throw whiff animation means she'll tech if something happens

FWIW, I brought this up to Mike months ago, and he seemed to think (or maybe intended) that if Sekhmet went for throw, sekhmet L was supposed to come out which you can't tech with, making it a pseudo throw whiff to punish throw techs. When I told him you can make sekhmet throw tech without getting sekh L to come out at all, I vaguely remember that he was a little surprised but at the time didn't seem to think it was much of a problem.

Ryin said:
Anyway, watching that video Mike said could have been vulnerable to sweeps, which I think could be interesting.

Being vulnerable to sweeps wouldn't really solve any of the issues people are talking about.
 
Yes, I'm aware it wouldn't solve the problems people are talking about. But it would make neutral against her more interesting than upback till block to throw.
 
so after doing some testing I believe that elbow drop is now the fastest instant overhead in the game and now allows you to combo off of it. Next thing I find interesting is that even though elbow drop has an 11 frame start up (compared to the clap which has a 15 frame start up) the clap and elbow drop both yield 1k of damage and the ability to convert into a combo. Now this is just a comment but if one is faster then the other shouldn't the faster one yield less damage? Now I'm not suggesting that this is bad frankly I really like it :) but just to make sure that people don't begin to say "oh cerebella is so overpowered" it might want to be looked into.

E: filia's j.lk is still faster frame wise but more inputs are needed to ensure that it comes out (jump, IAD, j.lk) I don't know how to count the frames of a jump or IAD to test this though.
 
joshb911 said:
so after doing some testing I believe that elbow drop is now the fastest instant overhead in the game and now allows you to combo off of it. Next thing I find interesting is that even though elbow drop has an 11 frame start up (compared to the clap which has a 15 frame start up) the clap and elbow drop both yield 1k of damage and the ability to convert into a combo. Now this is just a comment but if one is faster then the other shouldn't the faster one yield less damage? Now I'm not suggesting that this is bad frankly I really like it :) but just to make sure that people don't begin to say "oh cerebella is so overpowered" it might want to be looked into.

E: filia's j.lk is still faster frame wise but more inputs are needed to ensure that it comes out (jump, IAD, j.lk) I don't know how to count the frames of a jump or IAD to test this though.
Elbow forces you to use your otg, j.hp does not. I'm pretty sure elbow is punishable on block, and I know j.hp isn't. Elbow is not the fastest instant overhead in the game, Zid compiled a list of the fastest instant overheads a little while ago and there's a good amount that are under 10 frames.
 
@Icky do you know where that list is? I'm actually really interested in the fastest moves :D

I was testing the overheads and found that Filia's j.lk was really fast (7f) but even with IAD it might not be as fast because of the previous inputs of jumping (to a certain height), IADing (some frames there), and finally the 7f of start up. And yes I know you can just jump and lk but then you have to wait x amount of frames of jumping before you can use it. I'm not saying that elbow drop is the fastest overhead as an individual move I'm saying that if you take into account jumping/(IADing for some characters)/and finally the move execution elbow drop seems to only require about 13 or 15 frames of total animation due to the ability to immediately cancel a jump into elbow drop (once again I don't know how to count the frames of a jump or IADs so this is just a rough estimate). I'm not saying your wrong Icky it's just a hunch I have that this move is much faster then people might think (but I could and probably am wrong)
 
If you want Sek to be vulnerable to throws, make it so he can't tech.

Also, I mentioned this earlier, the throw range is pitiful compared to Sek's axe range.

Go into training, set the dummy to throw on reversal and see just how close you can get while still hitting. Spoiler: really fucking close.

She effectively has no weaknesses, and I think most of us agree on that.

It gets worse when you consider that she's attached to a high damage, high abarre, "I'll have one of everything", range for days character.
 
fenster said:
I vaguely remember that he was a little surprised but at the time didn't seem to think it was much of a problem.
Well, "much of a problem" would probably be an overstatement, since Sekh generally doesn't just jump around doing nothing.
It's just another thing on the list of stuff I feel is an "awkward at best / awful at worst" design decision when it comes to Sekhmet..

Eliza herself feels quite fine; she's like a Filia x Parasoul mix or similar, except with far worse defence than either - a true glasscannon.
jMK may be a bit too good and perhaps she has too easy a time getting around zoning, but overall she's a fun char.

And then there's Sekhmet
- Who is boring to play (not much to do as a player with no specials, no movement, no blocking and 4 attacks)
- Obscenely boring to fight (people hate zoning where one gets to maneuver around a projectile labyrinth plus eg constantly has to watch out for and bait teleports.. How do people feel about a character against whom you do literally nothing but "hold upback and wait for her meter to run out"?)
- Source of one of, if not the most granting feeling in SG (Oh, he hit my assist with sekhmet, well neat! Now I can watch him mash 2 buttons for 20 seconds, have zero countermeasures, and there goes a character!)
- Requires very little thought to call (Generally, your punishment will be having lost a little bit of meter)
- Against whom the 'devised counters' don't really work (Throws get teched in neutral, Throw punishes are a 2f window and always out of range, Snaps are an orgasmic risk for very little reward, waiting out doesn't actually cost a ton of meter and it's not like meter is ever scarce in SG anyway)
- Who has a screwed up risk/reward system in general (will take 4-5k when thrown, but deals 10k when she hits you)
- And who, designwise, is busted at her core (either her mixups are easy to defend against - then, aside from jumpin>sekhmet>recall, the mode is pretty shit; or they aren't - then you are fighting a mixup machine who can attack while being safe from reversals ie who doesn't need to take any of the defenders abilities into account)

Maybe fighting (and using) her would be more fun if there was a "Sekhmet bar" eg below the Undizzy one, and it was empty at round start and slowly filled over time, and emptied anytime Sekhmet returned to anchor, and you couldn't call Sekh when the bar isn't full.
That would
- give the opponent an actual reward for putting up with sekh (Liza can't call it again for the next x frames),
- force Liza to think about what she's doing (for one she can't just nilly willy Sekhmet in neutral all the time, for two combo extensions with Sekhmet / Sekh super ender would lock Sekh calls out for a while),
- and in general create an interplay with Eliza and her opponent similar to Squigly, where you want to rush her down asap, so she never gets time to charge Sekh/stance.

Dunno how well something like this would work (it's just a quick idea without refinement), and it doesn't really fix the fundamental issues with Sekhmet, but at least she'd now be something one can play around

On the Sweeps thing:
Uh, it wouldn't hurt, but Sweeps are ~15f startup moves with bad hitboxes and don't lead to anything.
Would still be a super shitty risk/reward on top of being unlikely to work ever, so most likely not something anyone would ever use.

E: @joshb911 some of the IAD normals are 1f off, but it still gives a mostly right outlook:
http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?posts/208704
 
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joshb911 said:
@Icky do you know where that list is? I'm actually really interested in the fastest moves :D
Luckily I remembered vaguely that the page count was in the 60's when I posted That List. Otherwise you'd'a been SOL (unless someone compiled the list again).

It's important to note that there is jump startup on Elbow, meaning it's actually 15f startup. And yes, it eating up an OTG reduces the damage potential, something that no one else's overhead really does, and with j.hp you have the chance of getting a HCH.
 
IsaVulpes said:
things
I have fun fighting sekhmet, but I guess that's because every character i play has hitgrabs and other effective options (Big Band with taunt is the best though)

I imagine painwheel vs sekhmet could be fun as well if the painwheel player knows what they're doing and is feeling confident


Keep in mind Sekhmet is slowed by getting hit, so if you have something multihitting you can effectively lock her down and grab/snap while she's stuck. Big bands sound stun moves seem to have an amplified effect as well, so maybe beat extend assist could buy time to go for something?
 
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Zidiane said:
Luckily I remembered vaguely that the page count was in the 60's when I posted That List. Otherwise you'd'a been SOL (unless someone compiled the list again).

It's important to note that there is jump startup on Elbow, meaning it's actually 15f startup. And yes, it eating up an OTG reduces the damage potential, something that no one else's overhead really does, and with j.hp you have the chance of getting a HCH.
This list could probably be its own thread. It's a useful resource and having it buried on page 64 of an arbitrary thread isn't the best thing for it.
 
Ironically @Icky eliza gives me an idea of how people were mad about fukua. On to the eliza lovers can defend the points that were raised. I'm curious on what more statments can be brought out about this
 
zeknife said:
Keep in mind Sekhmet is slowed by getting hit, so if you have something multihitting you can effecively lock her down and grab/snap while she's stuck. Big bands sound stun moves seem to have an amplified effect as well, so maybe beat extend assist could buy time to go for something?
Peacock has a decently fun time doing backdash argus against veryterrible sekhmet calls

Calling assist against sekh does not sound fun..

And again, where is the fun for the sekhmet player in this\
 
zeknife said:
I imagine painwheel vs sekhmet could be fun as well if the painwheel player knows what they're doing and is feeling confident

You mean fly into the top left corner getting ready to unfly > block until Sek gets bored and returns to Eliza?
 
Spencer said:
You mean fly into the top left corner getting ready to unfly > block until Sek gets bored and returns to Eliza?
All of painwheels multihits lock sekhmet in place even if she's in an attack, and can be chained into buers or air super
You can also armor through any of sekhmets attacks, release button into multihit (j.hp, s.mk, c.mp) and cancel into buer except for sekh 5B (or however her moves are notated)

It goes without saying that if all you do is run away it won't be fun, but this is surely always the case and not specific to Sekhmet
Show some agency and find out what your options are, painwheel probably has the best ones on paper.
 
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So, Eliza has the one of the more bad defenses of the game, and people are complaining about Sekmet and not punishing any of the axes with throw?
Eliza has a huge hitbox, gets bodied by offensive assists, and getting knocked down. In return, she has an amazing neutral game. People keep calling her a better filia, but filia has faster mixups and better defense than eliza. In return, her neutral is bad.
Im sorry but id rather not have two filias.
 
IsaVulpes said:
He probably means spacing yourself into m.buer fly jmp combo and then dropping the combo since too busy masturbating

E: can u pls give ur inputs on this spencer, im very curious
http://skullgirls.com/forums/index....a-get-out-of-my-thread.35/page-22#post-231033

Absolutely. I agree with him. Pretty much entirely. My issues with PW is that she's not all that solo friendly in a game that's definitely not all that solo friendly. PW in a team is a nasty creature and my game leveled up just by putting my scrub Squigs on my team. But after doing the team thing for a bit, it isn't for me, so I occasionally jump into QM for some quick funsies and at this point work harder on my bedman. It took me a while to realize all of this, so instead of subjecting you all to my idea of how solos should operate, I mostly sit quietly these days regarding PW and her place in this game (I can't remember the last time I posted in the PW forum). My giving input on the beta thread over the last few days has been relatively new after a hiatus as well.

On topic, the safest thing you can do vs Sek is avoid her. PW actually has it pretty good in this department relative to others. The risk (taking huge damage) vs the reward (taking some damage) is just usually not worth it unless the Sek calls are abysmal. I can see hk.buer having some effect on the jump-in and air buers working alright as air-to-air, but I'd say you're generally just better off flying away.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
How does attacking the anchorpoint sound? Or is that just harsh to eliza?
why


IsaVulpes said:
Eliza herself feels quite fine; she's like a Filia x Parasoul mix or similar, except with far worse defence than either - a true glasscannon.

Defense as in their reversal options? Because pillar is not a good reversal. You just jump over parasoul and look at her whiff pillar and get a full CH punish. Wouldn't call her a glass cannon at all :\

zeknife said:
Keep in mind Sekhmet is slowed by getting hit, so if you have something multihitting you can effecively lock her down and grab/snap while she's stuck. Big bands sound stun moves seem to have an amplified effect as well, so maybe beat extend assist could buy time to go for something?


I've recently started doing stuff like this, though I do need to put it into practice more. Atm I'm still getting hit because I don't get to the spot I wanted to be in fast enough to throw her or w/e



SonicFox5000 said:
So, Eliza has the one of the more bad defenses of the game, and people are complaining about Sekmet and not punishing any of the axes with throw?
Eliza has a huge hitbox, gets bodied by offensive assists, and getting knocked down. In return, she has an amazing neutral game. People keep calling her a better filia, but filia has faster mixups and better defense than eliza. In return, her neutral is bad.
Im sorry but id rather not have two filias.

You cant punish axe with throw unless your opponent commits to the axe on the ground. Otherwise you have to let sek go, because the risk of getting hit by axe because you staggered it by a bit is not worth the damage you get off throw when you're gonna die for it. The window to get the universal punish should not be so small imo.

Also one of the more bad defenses in the game?
Squigly without charge, Peacock, Double, Valentine, and Fukua all have bad defense too. Its not a unique trait that magically makes it so that your j.mk from half screen away is a fair move when it puts me into 10 million years of blockstun in the retail version. Boy, I sure do wish double could do that.

And Filia does have faster mix ups, that's fine. But I can actually challenge Filia's pressure, and if I read her mix ups and pushblock her away she's OUT. She's not in oh I'd better just j.mk and go back in again and if it hits well then shit time to get a full combo off it. You can barely challenge the move most of the time, best chance is the Eliza player going in and running into a dp assist. Oh hey, Fukua's J.hk does the same thing! But I don't get to use that move from, once again, half the screen away.
 
IsaVulpes said:
- Source of one of, if not the most granting feeling in SG (Oh, he hit my assist with sekhmet, well neat! Now I can watch him mash 2 buttons for 20 seconds, have zero countermeasures, and there goes a character!)
Please elaborate, I feel like I missed something there.

CaioLugon said:
You cant play skullgirls if you cant do combos while masturbating
challenge acc-...


uh...
 
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