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Blocking after super flash

guitalex2007

guitalex2007

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I'm aware this is an experiment but I don't like it.

I thought I would be OK with it until I ran carelessly into a super then proceeded to just block it point blank.

It's dumb. It feels dumb. It takes away reversal options from almost all of the cast and makes pressure more powerful because no one is going to respect the space. Honestly, how many of you ever try to reset Filia with meter anymore in the air? Zero? Yes, that's what I thought.

Voice your opinion here too, I guess.
 
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I wouldn't say it makes pressure much more powerful. You can legitimately use it as a reversal if the opponent hits a button, like a reversal is supposed to do. I'm fine with it because it makes mashing supers less braindead, which has started to become very prominent.

My biggest gripe with the change is that Squigly's lvl 2 Center Stage > SBO is now blockable post-flash, which I think should have kept the perk of not being blockable. Maybe Fenrir too to a lesser extent just because of how it worked before.
 
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I like it. Reversals are supposed to beat attacks. They still beat attacks but they dont beat someone doing something like dashing forward or just walking forward or in the middle of a dash or run input.

Supers shouldnt be throw it out moves, unless they are specifically designed to be that way. Like uss. But not ALL supers, that just happen to have less than 8 frames startup.

I never got that whole 8 frames thing anyways.

Why not 9 frames? Its still humanly unblockable on reaction. In fact why not 13 frames? Still unreactable for 99% of the population 99% of the time.

As far as the example of non super freeze goes... That just brings up a different question:


Should moves that do that much damage have such fast startup and range and invincibility?

The answer according to capcom games (which sg is modeled after) is generally no. The more range a move has the slower it starts up, also, the faster a move is, the less range it has. The slower a move starts up, the more range it generally has.

There are certain exceptions, but those are exceptions not the rule.


When hitstop was first introduced there were many broken as hell applications from different supers. Most of those got slowed down though, so all in all they were no longer unblockable from like halfscreen away... Which is good. But still, being unblockable just for standing there doesnt sound right when the supers themselves already have invincibility and range and damage and can be dhc on block or even wiff into something safe.


So yeah, while i think the best balance has already been performed (slowing down the first active frames of certain supers... Or something like that so that those supers didnt have huge unblockable ranges) and i personally have adjusted to limited range unblockable on reaction supers... The mechanic as a whole doesnt make sense to me.

Imho, the fix that is in now is the fix that should have been there from the get go. Especially when these supers have faster startups and range than they rightfully ought to have barring super freeze
(IMO)


-edit


In fenrirs case i believe it should keep the unblockable property horizontally speaking, but perhaps not vertically. That way she can still do those hairball resets and stuff, but it isnt unblockable when you are 2character lengths above her.... Though i dont know how that would be programmable, a similar thing was done to painwheels air super.


In sing xx sbo case i think it should be balanced by range... If done within a certain close distance to the opponent it is super freeze unblockable.

If done outside that range, (an example would be fullscreen) then i dont think it should gain that property.. Basically treat it kinda like an os command grab:


Limited range on the freeze unblockable, but at further out still gives pressure but isnt as guaranteed.
 
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Honestly, I like the idea of being able to block supers if you were walking forward or standing. I don't think you should be able to cancel dashes into blocks, though. Also, certain supers need to be exempt from this, such as Fenrir, so you can still do specific tactics with those.

People are still going to bitch about mashing though, since this isn't going to stop players from mashing during your pressure or throwing out strong supers into safe DHC. All this does is give the attacker the option to block if he didn't commit to anything before...which is what holding back before the super even starts up also does.

IsaVulpes said:
What a surprise, guitalex doesn't like a change that makes mashing less powerful

Adjusting super flash doesn't affect the effectiveness of Fiber Upper mash.
 
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Moved to gameplay. Cause its not a bug.
 
RemiKz said:
My biggest gripe with the change is that Squigly's lvl 2 Center Stage > SBO is now blockable post-flash, which I think should have kept the perk of not being blockable.

This.
 
Can we just make Opera straight up unblockable, why we gotta futz around with hitstop and stuff like that
 
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IsaVulpes said:
What a surprise, guitalex doesn't like a change that makes mashing less powerful
Way to think inside the box.

I said I didn't like it because I ran into a super and just blocked it. Learn to read, pls.

Also, if you're going to be a dick, can you be an accurate one? I mash non-supers. :)
 
guitalex2007 said:
Way to think inside the box.

I said I didn't like it because I ran into a super and just blocked it. Learn to read, pls.

Also, if you're going to be a dick, can you be an accurate one? I mash non-supers. :)
If you weren't pushing any buttons I don't see how you can say you ran into it.
 
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mcpeanuts said:
If you weren't pushing any buttons I don't see how you can say you ran into it.

Maybe by running forward... which you can now cancel into a block during the hitstop.

Anyway, my opinion on this change - I don't think it really has as much of an impact as people are saying it does, except for Squigly.
 
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this is progress but the struggle is never-ending!!!!!!

oDo2LuY.png
 
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My only concern about this change is that now squigly's center stage sing->SBO is pretty much nerfd to the point of not even bothering to try to catch someone offguard.
It would be cool to see the seria sing give her super a 0f advantage (like it always did).
 
Yeah, I don't even play Squigly, but I'd hate to see the charged Center Stage -> SBO thing lost.

I'd like to keep the current super-flash mechanics, but if that's not possible, I'd at least like to see a hardcoded exception on that, since it's actually a pretty interesting tactic to play around when you know the Squigly has charge.
 
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So I'm the only person who would be happy that squigly would no longer catch you doing anything other than holding back at full screen?
 
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Zidiane said:
So I'm the only person who would be happy that squigly would no longer catch you doing anything other than holding back at full screen?

As a squigly player, honestly I wouldn't mind losing that because even i think its kind of dumb.

But I think you'd have to give Squigly some buffs in return. Like having an actual DP
 
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Jason said:
As a squigly player, honestly I wouldn't mind losing that because even i think its kind of dumb.

But I think you'd have to give Squigly some buffs in return. Like having an actual DP
Or make SBO unlockable after the flash only if theres no sing before it?

I dont know, I only played her when you could combo off of max height mk divekick.
 
Anyway, MikeZ was also talking on the IRC about having this change apply only if you have Undizzy meter, which means that you can block during during hitstop if your opponent mashes out a super during a reset but not if he does one during neutral.
 
Jason said:
Anyway, MikeZ was also talking on the IRC about having this change apply only if you have Undizzy meter, which means that you can block during during hitstop if your opponent mashes out a super during a reset but not if he does one during neutral.
I dont like that either. Pick one or the other, hitstop or no. Dont cater to people who believe they shouldn't have to think about their opponents options when they go for a reset. Cause they could just do like a medium and then block.
 
Dime_x said:
Should moves that do that much damage have such fast startup and range and invincibility?

I guess that depends on how valuable you think your Super Meter is.

I think meter is really really valuable currently in Encore. Especially for lower-tier characters who don't have an air dash or a proper DP.
 
I have been gone for a very long time, did I miss something in the pc beta? An experimental change, the boy still has no pc.

Boys can block after flash? But will still get hit if they were pressing buttons?

That means we can actually bait shit now?
 
iLoli said:
I have been gone for a very long time, did I miss something in the pc beta? An experimental change, the boy still has no pc.

Boys can block after flash? But will still get hit if they were pressing buttons?

That means we can actually bait shit now?

Yes, basically if you were in a state where you could block (like a run, forward dash, neutral, etc) you are allowed to block after the flash but nothing else, no reaction supers, no DHC wars, just block. You can also change which direction you're blocking, in case it matters.

If, when the super-flash started, you are in a state where you can't block (attacking, backdash, pre-jump frames, etc.) then you're getting hit.
 
Jason said:
Yes, basically if you were in a state where you could block (like a run, forward dash, neutral, etc) you are allowed to block after the flash but nothing else, no reaction supers, no DHC wars, just block. You can also change which direction you're blocking, in case it matters.

If, when the super-flash started, you are in a state where you can't block (attacking, backdash, pre-jump frames, etc.) then you're getting hit.
Then for the life of me I do not see the problem.

It's not like you can block mid air dash all of a sudden, right?

So you can still reaction super fillia air dashing, right?
 
I guess it won't change too much, but I'd really rather not have the "only if they have undizzy" thing.
 
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Zidiane said:
I guess it won't change too much, but I'd really rather not have the "only if they have undizzy" thing.
wait wut
 
iLoli said:
Then for the life of me I do not see the problem.

It's not like you can block mid air dash all of a sudden, right?

So you can still reaction super fillia air dashing, right?

Yeah pretty sure Filia can't block during her air-dash so she's out of luck if you super in the middle of an air dash.

Like I said, this doesn't really change very much. I've played some matches with it on and you don't notice the difference 99% of the time.

The only thing it really impacts very much is Squigly doing Level 2 Center Stage xx Opera.
 
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Agreed with Zidiane.

I don't think it needs to be changed at all, but "sometimes but not always" is ugh.
 
Jason said:
Yeah pretty sure Filia can't block during her air-dash so she's out of luck if you super in the middle of an air dash.

Like I said, this doesn't really change very much. I've played some matches with it on and you don't notice the difference 99% of the time.

The only thing it really impacts very much is Squigly doing Level 2 Center Stage xx Opera.
On the real, that unblockable oprea was some ol' bullshit.
 
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iLoli said:
wait wut
Jason said:
Anyway, MikeZ was also talking on the IRC about having this change apply only if you have Undizzy meter, which means that you can block during during hitstop if your opponent mashes out a super during a reset but not if he does one during neutral.
 
I don't think even Mike wants such an esoteric rule.

I think this is fine.

You can reaction if your opponent is being predictable, but being a nut is less rewarded.
 
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mcpeanuts said:
If you weren't pushing any buttons I don't see how you can say you ran into it.
Dash can be canceled into block. So I ran, and feel like I should've been hit for running like an idiot but hey, I blocked it from a dash animation.
 
guitalex2007 said:
Dash can be canceled into block. So I ran, and feel like I should've been hit for running like an idiot but hey, I blocked it from a dash animation.

It sounds like run needs recovery periods if you don't cancel them into a hit or jump. Like, GG run only you don't have FD to block immediately. This could work, but I still don't see why there's a problem with just blocking before the super flash.
 
Supers with dozens of frames of start-up? Haven't we already been through this?
 
Why can forward dash be canceled into block but not back dash? Just so that you can't succesfully block if you miss the timing on a pushblock?
 
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Because push block baits.
 
I think it would make back dashes way too safe if you could do that. They're already pretty useful for some characters.

Also I think if there was recovery time on forward dashes where you couldn't block you'd nerf the shit out of pretty much anybody who can't airdash, especially against peacock.
 
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Karlaaldana said:
My only concern about this change is that now squigly's center stage sing->SBO is pretty much nerfd to the point of not even bothering to try to catch someone offguard.
It would be cool to see the seria sing give her super a 0f advantage (like it always did).

Let's examine the paradigms with that particular example:

1. Hitstop as it is. Squigly with a sing charge and a meter. At full screen you must hold back. The proponents for this argue that if you didn't commit to holding back pre-flash (the only correct commitment) you made an erroneous commitment; holding forward to walk, jumping, dashing, buttons, whatever.

2. Post-flash blocking for someone in neutral state, or walking forward. You didn't commit to buttons, you didn't commit to dash, you didn't commit to jump, and all three of those still get bopped, but you have some limited options: walking forward, neutral, or block.

Keeping the stick neutral or cautiously walking forward is a staple in slower/footsie games like 3S or KoF, and I refuse to believe or agree with any of the rhetoric some people are throwing out like "you should be blocking pre-flash or ur doin it wrong this is fighting 101 lel" as if that's the only way fitan games have ever operated. Personally, I feel it's excessive as an expectation that you must guess 100% correctly and take one singular action (and thus be limited to that one singular action decision) when five or more actions are available.

By the same token, there are games (or at least supers in other games if not every super has the same hitstop properties) that completely fuck you up with hitstop. If everyone decides the first route is the way to go, I can accept that it's just a different game/environment than what I like or I'm used to and business continues as usual. I know Mike likes hitstop, and generally balances with it in mind to keep things really fast with back/forth momentum changes. We've lived with it this long, etc.

My real hope/concern is that it still bops dashes, jumps, and literally anything that isn't forward walk or neutral, but I don't know if that can be achieved without fucking up forward dash into block which would have balance ramifications for Peacock and projectile-heavy neutral in general. If that's possible, I feel it's a great compromise that will greatly reduce mashing and fullscreen staredowns, yet still let supers retain their usefulness as reversals in frame advantageous situations and PBGC situations so they're still rewarding clever/judicious use.
 
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guitalex2007 said:
Dash can be canceled into block. So I ran, and feel like I should've been hit for running like an idiot but hey, I blocked it from a dash animation.
Isn't that just with "run" dashes?

Or is that all dashes?

Someone test that shit.

Cuz Bella/Filia don't got dat run dash.
 
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