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Blocking after super flash

I'll like to see what would get a buff in its place.

inb4 getting an 'actual' DP
 

is this working as intended? it's the beta
 
@Age
Yes, that's "as intended".
Prejump cancels to preblock if you are close enough (re that other thread). You can only block post-flash if you are ON a frame that can block already, and prejump is not that. You can't switch frames in hitstop.
In other words, up-back that way gets hit.

I like that people think there's some sort of tradeoff for sing-opera not being fully guaranteed in every case, considering other characters lose the same tool albeit at different ranges. That's funny.
 
It was a suggestion, not an expectation.

Ultimately I don't really use it all that often except to punish projectiles and such which won't be changing, and personally I think putting your opponent into an automatic mixup situation from full-screen is good enough.

Mostly I was just trying to illustrate to Luweewu how a trade off nerf-for-buff situation can be beneficial to the game as a whole. I don't necessarily think this needs to happen in Squigly's case for her to remain a strong character.
 
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Mr. X said:
There's 1 second of super flash and I'm going to continue to ignore that I wouldn't be able to block these 2-3 frame moves on reaction without it and complain about hitstop.
Seems no one has tried training with super flashes off, sadly.
 
I did.


And i instantly thought to myself "wtf, why are these moves so fast"


To put it plainly, it doesnt make sense.

Hitstop is arbitrary. How amazing do you think 9 frame startup argus would be in neutral with no super flash?

It would be way way way better than it is now. It wouldn't be blockable on reaction from fullscreen.

What about cats?


You wouldnt even be able to block that on reaction either since cats comes out damn near instantly.

So, i seriously wonder what be going on in peoples heads when they think this is how things should be.

If its how it should be then just turn the super flashes off and have at it.
 
Dime_x said:
You wouldnt even be able to block that on reaction either since cats comes out damn near instantly.
Congratulations. You now know why hitstop exists.

These moves cost meter. They're supposed to be good. Without hitstop, you'd be able to block or SDE counter super/DP all day long, rendering moves that cost meter and are supposed to be good pretty useless.
 
guitalex2007 said:
Congratulations. You now know why hitstop exists.

These moves cost meter. They're supposed to be good. Without hitstop, you'd be able to block or SDE counter super/DP all day long, rendering moves that cost meter and are supposed to be good pretty useless.


Except that you CAN block argus fullscreen on reaction right now. So it makes your point moot.

Like i said, if its supposed to be this way, do away with super flash on all supers. So that i and everyone else can get unseeable car crossup dhc into install into 9-10k combo.

As it is right now, crossup car isnt only react blockable, it is also baitable from fullscreen with doing something like peacocks st.hp, seeing car crossup/non crossup super freeze and teleporting through the car and getting a punish. Take away super freeze and that st.hp bait into prt strategy is gone.


Point being that using super startup as an argument for hitstop when it doesnt apply to all supers.... Makes little sense since many supers are slowed down to slower than superfreeze BUT STILL UNREACTABLE if super freeze were taken out.
 
Dime_x said:
Except that you CAN block argus fullscreen on reaction right now. So it makes your point moot.

Like i said, if its supposed to be this way, do away with super flash on all supers. So that i and everyone else can get unseeable car crossup dhc into install into 9-10k combo.

As it is right now, crossup car isnt only react blockable, it is also baitable from fullscreen with doing something like peacocks st.hp, seeing car crossup/non crossup super freeze and teleporting through the car and getting a punish. Take away super freeze and that st.hp bait into prt strategy is gone.


Point being that using super startup as an argument for hitstop when it doesnt apply to all supers.... Makes little sense since many supers are slowed down to slower than superfreeze BUT STILL UNREACTABLE.
The hitstop for those supers were changed. It's not all 8f. On purpose.
 
Yes, it would seem that you dont read though.

Take super freeze out and those moves become unblockable on reaction, as well as many other moves. So the argument of "no one has turned off super freeze to see how these moves work or why hitstop is in, in the first place" makes no sense. Crossup car is in the game, and with no super freeze is unblockable on reaction. Argus is the same.

Both of these were "balanced" to have slower startups than the 8 frame super freeze hitstop.

Which begs the obvious question:


If those moves are to powerful to be allowed their true startup, then why doesnt that apply to all supers? And that question completely debunks the entire argument that the reason for supers being sight unblockable is because of fast startup.


But anyways ive gone down the road of arguing with you before. It is a lesson in futility. I'll allow you the last word if you want it so that you can repeat what youve already said and gotten debunked, again.
 
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Personally I would be up for having hitstop only prevent people from inputting extra attacks (or any kind of cancelling I guess, so no switching from dash to crouch block) so they can't just punish supers with their own super/invul attack.

If that's impossible then I would be happy enough with shortened hitstop on some of the moves (Dynamo, Gregor and level 2 sing) just so that they're reactable when you're expecting them, but not when you're unprepared.
 
Dime_x said:
Take super freeze out and those moves become unblockable on reaction. As well as many other moves. So the argument of "no one has turned off super freeze to see how these moves work or why hitstop is in, in the first place" makes no sense. Crossup car is in the game, and with no super freeze is unblockable on reaction. Argus is the same.
It wasn't an argument. It was a statement. You turned it into an argument, as usual.

Hitstop is a necessity of super freeze. I'm not saying anything else because it's not my argument. Get @mikez in here to give his side.
 
Dime_x said:
Hitstop is arbitrary.

Dime_x said:
Both of these were "balanced" to have slower startups than the 8 frame super freeze hitstop.

I don't see how you can state both of these things in nearly back-to-back posts and not have your brain explode from the contradiction.

Obviously some supers are unblockable post-flash and others aren't for balance purposes. That's the exact opposite of arbitrary.
 
guitalex2007 said:
It wasn't an argument. It was a statement. You turned it into an argument, as usual.

Hitstop is a necessity of super freeze. I'm not saying anything else because it's not my argument. Get @mikez in here to give his side.
The @ didn't work because Mike Z's name was misspelled.

@Mike_Z
 
Cynical said:
The @ didn't work because Mike Z's name was misspelled.

@Mike_Z
Thanks. I was using Tapatalk and that thing won't let you know if you're tagging people right. Maybe it needs an update.
 
Jason said:
I don't see how you can state both of these things in nearly back-to-back posts and not have your brain explode from the contradiction.

Obviously some supers are unblockable post-flash and others aren't for balance purposes. That's the exact opposite of arbitrary.


You need to read more than the first sentence in the dictionary definition. It means a bunch of things and can be used in a bunch of different ways.

The way i was using it was to state that the numbers were:


"Based on or subject to individual judgement or preference"


So... Does that answer how my head didnt explode? The quotation marks are verbatim dictionary definition.

There are a lot of definitions of arbitrary though, even in the dictionary. So i can see how there would be confusion. But i mean it isnt hard to understand arbitrary in laymens terms which is basically "subject to preference"

The numbers for hitstop are preferential (8) instead of 6 or 4 or infinity minus infinity plus one. And the supers that are hitstop unblockable and the ones that arent, are preferential, and therefor arbitrary since they were not established via committee but by one individual.


Now... Everything in the game... Generally speaking mechanics wise is arbitrary. Which doesnt make it bad in any way. Stating that something is arbitrary in this situation is a way of stating that the decision isnt one set in stone and is perfectly mutable.


Blah off topic argument about definitions. You can feel free to disagree.
 
Played with the changes a bit now, I'm liking how it affects the game overall.

Reversals are still a thing, not surprising but some people act like this isn't true.

Squigly is nerfed, yeah, but despite being guilty of falling back on sing xx SBO as a crutch myself, I'm still managing with her just fine.

Maybe Fenrir should get this property back? I almost feel remiss mentioning that, but it is how it has always been with that super.
 
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Dime_x said:
The numbers for hitstop are preferential (8) instead of 6 or 4 or infinity minus infinity plus one. And the supers that are hitstop unblockable and the ones that arent, are preferential, and therefor arbitrary since they were not established via committee but by one individual.

If your post had been asking Mike to take a vote on if this change should stay or not or if you declared that he should create a committee to debate the issue maybe I could have inferred that meaning but the much much more common use of the word arbitrary

"based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system."

seems a lot more relevant in context. Its pretty insulting to suggest that Mike has made any game-play changes to the game randomly with no good reason, especially one as significant as hitstop. What I'm trying to say is that you could have phrased that post a lot more carefully.


Back on topic

I don't like today's change. I feel like if I can block during a forward dash and I can block during hitstop... then I should be able to block during a dash during hitstop. Either reaction blocking during hitstop is impossible or it should apply equally to dashing and walking and jumping. Its not as if walking forward vs running forward has any real impact on if you can reaction block under normal circumstances so hitstop should apply equally to both but that's just my opinion.

Don't care if you can't cancel into block during pre-jump frames in hitstop because there's all kinds of ways you can get hit out of your pre-jump frames already.
 
Nah, all I do is make arbitrary changes, Dime's completely right. Don't you guys pay attention to the FGC? I gaem desurnr.

Please stop arguing the reasoning so I can quit skipping posts; just say what you prefer and why*.
If it helps, Squigly would not receive a buff 'to compensate' because that kind of logic is garbage since the buff could have nothing to do with the removal of Sing-Opera AND because it applies to everyone, and Fenrir would probably not return to 0f.

* in fewer than three paragraphs and with no ellipsis.
 
@Mike_Z

I prefer hitstop the way it is now in the beta but i want dashes immune to hitstop as well. It allows blocking if one wasnt blocking preflash but doesnt allow canceling of outstretched attacks.

I prefer this because i believe reversals should only be used to beat attacks, not non blocks or dashes before superflash. When i say dashes i mean dashes, not runs. It makes sense for runs not to be able to autoblock supers since they never could autoblock anyways.
 
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Considering Updo will still beat non-blocks from up close with zero chance to block on reaction (as well as every other invincible reversal ever in the game... and every attack used as a reversal would too AND THEY DON'T COST METER or warn you with a fancy flash that hey, you should probably start blocking this!), I'd rather have the hitstop back to the way it was.
 
Mike_Z said:
just say what you prefer and why*.
* in fewer than three paragraphs and with no ellipsis.
I like this change.
Reversals and raw supers are still powerful even with no hitstop.
 
I'm okay with the current change, of being blockable but hitting dashes and what not. Personally I find anything that encourages smart blocking and reads a good thing, I might be the only person who still gets hype when I see a masterfully blocked string/mixup. lol
 
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I'm fine with the changes, but I'd prefer dashes to be super punishable in the end (as it is now). Letting some characters dash all over the place without fear of being super-stuffed would put things too far in their favor, imo.
 
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Night Phyre said:
I'm fine with the changes, but I'd prefer dashes to be super punishable in the end (as it is now). Letting some characters IAD all over the place without fear of being super-stuffed would put the new metagame too far in their favor, imo.

Blocking during a dash only applies to ground dashes since you can't block during an air-dash to begin with.
 
Jason said:
Blocking during a dash only applies to ground dashes since you can't block during an air-dash to begin with.
You quoted me before I fixed my post :)

I typed IAD out of habit. Meant to simply say dash.
 
I don't see the problem with being able to dash without fear of being supered for simply moving around.
 
You'd get hit by anything for holding forward but because a super has a flash you should be able to block it? I disagree sirrrrr
 
I don't like the idea of getting off a free super just because you saw someone dash. If they were to hit a button I understand, but simply moving around should be fine. I'm fine with how it is currently being able to block from neutral, but I don't think being able to block from dash is absurd.
 
IsaVulpes said:
You don't. They could always block before your Super happens.
So if you're in the middle of a dash and you hold back before the flash, you're safe?
 
Dime_x said:
Yes, it would seem that you dont read though.

Take super freeze out and those moves become unblockable on reaction, as well as many other moves. So the argument of "no one has turned off super freeze to see how these moves work or why hitstop is in, in the first place" makes no sense. Crossup car is in the game, and with no super freeze is unblockable on reaction. Argus is the same.

Both of these were "balanced" to have slower startups than the 8 frame super freeze hitstop.

Which begs the obvious question:


If those moves are to powerful to be allowed their true startup, then why doesnt that apply to all supers? And that question completely debunks the entire argument that the reason for supers being sight unblockable is because of fast startup.


But anyways ive gone down the road of arguing with you before. It is a lesson in futility. I'll allow you the last word if you want it so that you can repeat what youve already said and gotten debunked, again.

i think the reason that these particular moves dont have hitstop in the same way that other supers do is because they both hit from fullscreen like instantly. thats why they changed vals flatliner super too because it was unblockable from like halfscreen.
 
So Mike's basically trying to stop fullscreen hard to block confirms for a bar because you saw someone twitch?

Is that it, @Mike_Z ?
 
iLoli said:
So Mike's basically trying to stop fullscreen hard to block confirms for a bar because you saw someone twitch?
Is that it, @Mike_Z ?
Not really.
This is "Hey, people were complaining about a thing. Turns out there's a really easy way to change that behavior without having to do a ton of work. May as well try it and see what people think."

My personal opinion is:
- No other game works this way (can block but can't counterattack) and I think it's kinda weird. BUT, it certainly did make me have to think more before simply doing a reversal super, which made me realize how mindlessly I was doing them before, which means maybe it's not actually a bad thing. I am certainly opposed to you being able to counter a super post-flash, that's why there is hitstop in the first place.
- I would be fine toning down the hitstop on everything to make it so only the first active frame is unblk, instead of making this global change. If this doesn't stick that would be the next experiment.
- I do think Sing-Opera being an anywhere-confirmable twitch punish is a little too good, but removing it specifically without making this a global change is a bit unfair to Squigly. I actually think that if I were to tone down the hitstop on things, I might make Sing-Opera work the way this experiment currently works (can block but can't counter) because allowing you to counter removes a lot of the usefulness and I don't think she should lose the tool entirely.
 
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I'm not sure if reducing the amount of hitstop on every super is a great idea. One thing I love doing with Big Band's SSJ super is whiff punishing people from short distances but if that's changed then they'd be able to counter-super from any distance that's not point-blank.
 
@Mike_Z

A solution for squiglys dp issues? Perhaps:


Make it so that her regular dp is completely invincible on stage 1 and 2. But that it cannot be stance canceled. The way for her to get stage 2 would be to charge a different stance move and use that move to get to lvl2 dp.

This seems like win/win to me. If its stupid for some reason, well i literally just thought of it and wrote it down. I dont particularly care about the dp issue just yet, but having just picked up squiggs, it seems like i might eventually, maybe.
 
Is there an "issue" with her dp?
 
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