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Gaming General Discusison

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Catherine already explored the transgender angle with the red-headed girl whose name I forgot. Said character was remarkably fun and seemed like a saner choice than either C/Kat. Could be Atlus cloned her to give an option to players who wanted to date not-Wendy Erica (finally looked up the name).

[Edit] On second thought, vaginas come in a remarkable variety of shapes and sizes. Could just be that Rin's taco is beefier than Vincent expected. Would be a fun twist.
 
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Yeah, Erica. She's a transgender and for the time (2011) she was astoundingly well done, which hurts my soul that people are retroactively shitting on Catherine as a whole because of two tiny missteps with her ("deadnaming" her, having the reveal be a friendly but not malicious punchline at the end) and attributing it to Atlus being bad at representation in general

I seriously don't think it'll be a Penis 'cuz Atlus doens't set up a reveal that obvious and not subvert it.
 
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Even if it's not A, the fact that they're playing up tropes that imply A is bad enough. I'm not sure "surprise, you thought it was A but it actually isn't!" is really any better.
 
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On further thought, wasn't that the boss music played by the trailer there at the end? Catherine's bosses often reflected Vincent's fears concerning the plot (Nightmare Bride, Baby with a Chainsaw). It could be we saw an intro to a nightmare level concerning Vin's fear of surprise rocket rides. After all, most bonus dungeons have bonus bosses. In this case, a bonus boner boss.

Giant Meat Snake has appeared. It's the killer. Do not die.
Hint: Walk without rhythm, and you won't attract the worm.
 
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atlus had proven that any actual attempts at nuanced representation or commentary tends to go tits up for them
Rin's better off having a gun in place of her vagina
 
atlus had proven that any actual attempts at nuanced representation or commentary tends to go tits up for them
I thought Persona 2 was fine though.
:^)
 
atlus had proven that any actual attempts at nuanced representation or commentary tends to go tits up for them
Rin's better off having a gun in place of her vagina
Well it’s very likely he will have a gun. A love gun.

Also, for everyone thinking Vincent is horrified, you clearly don’t remember the first game because that’s the same face Vincent is making when he finds out he slept with another person the night before and cheated on his girlfriend, only doing a thinking expression.

Considering Japan’s recent craze with trap characters right now (Felix from Re:Zero, Hideri in Blend-S, FUCKING ASTOLFO), I wouldn’t be surprised. I’d be interested if it’s actually a gay route for Vincent. That’d be interesting. Just try to avoid cat fishing. That’s all I want.
 
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B. Has both genitalia (Some interpretations of Angels have both)
I would personally also vote for Option B to again, play into the angle that she is some sort of angelic host. Since Erika exists it seems like instead of giving a new girl they could have just made Erika a route option so just a straight up Transexual character would be "double dipping" in a game with this small a cast. I think heavenly Hermaphrodite would work better since you can also introduce fears associated with penetration for Vincent as Rin would be packing both types of equipment.

atlus had proven that any actual attempts at nuanced representation or commentary tends to go tits up for them
Rin's better off having a gun in place of her vagina
Current Atlus maybe, but Atlus from the DDS days and before could manage stuff like that. Then we got into "Extremely on the nose" territory with P3.

"deadnaming" her,
Wasn't this only in one ending to help explain the transition? I wasn't familiar with that phrase until today but was that part really offensive if it's in service of the narration?

Edit: Should have expanded my search parameters. Just read up on Erika's name in the art book and credits. I get what people are coming from with those.
 
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It was still progressive, especially by 2011 standards, it feels less like genuine outcry and more like people reaching to find things to complain about to remove hype from a remake of a good game.
Good reasons but I feel people are using it to take away most of what made Erica great, 'cuz by all accounts she's still a greatly written trans character since that's... not 100% her character, she's very helpful and nice and the few jabs aimed at her seemed more like joking friend banter.

But yes personally I'm hoping for both genitalia as well.
Plus... for some reason, in Catherine, Katherine is associated with the female symbol, while Catherine is associated with the male symbol.
Rin could have both... or neither.
 
The trailer shows male symbol followed by 3 female symbols, I'm not sure Qatherine will be anything but female.
I mean, there’s a third female Vincent can get with at the end of the game as a secret ending.
 
Honestly I always thought it funny that Catherine was marketed as this shocking and sexual adult game
and then the most we get is the ass monster.
Vincent and his wild life of lights out, clothes on sex
 
I mean men's underwear have the hole for that reason.
you should know this.
If I was ever with a guy who wouldn't take off his damn boxers, I would kick him out right there.
Catherine may be a succubus but she could at least have fucking standards
 
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just making sure from here on out since I already know this game is going to be controversial when talking about Erica or Rin lets refer to them as Transgender and avoid things like transsexual since it's a very outdated term and can be considered offensive to some.


Anyway I hope the game doesn't get overshadowed by the possibly transphobic and ignorant message the trailer is starting to give off, especially with vincents horrible HORRIBLE response to what might be happening. I hope it's just poor marketing and shock value over nothing. Or hell I would love the Rin path to focus on Vincent overcoming his ignorance and learning to really like Rin, I think that'd be a pretty progressive way to do a story but it's just not likely given their recent history with lgbtq characters.

p5's was just a shitshow
 
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If it makes you feel better even people who love Persona 5 think what you're talking about was tasteless.
The director of the past few Persona games is retiring so here's hoping they handle topics like this better.
 
I'm sorry but was the fuss over P5 only about how you couldn't have a gay romance?

Not to sound impolite, but if that's the reason then I find it a bit of an exageration calling it a shitshow, if not stupid althogether. They didn't think about it, or maybe they ran out of time, it doesn't mean there was a malicious intent behind it or something.
 
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P5's only canonically gay characters were a couple of stereotypes whom were also implied pedophiles
 
I'm sorry but was the fuss over P5 only about how you couldn't have a gay romance?
Even if there were time constraints or something I don't really think it's a slight against the game not to have a gay romance option. And given what I've played of the game (slowly chugging my way through) even if you got a gay romance it would be just as hamhanded and shallow as the female romance options and people would be up in arms about Yusuke being the stereotypical gay painter or something like that. Jun from P2 was a better option but that game had only 3 or so romance options baked into it so everyone felt more logical.

To me at least the dating sim aspects of the PS2 era Persona games as well as P5 have always been the weakest parts of the social link mechanic. Fostering a relationship works a lot better when you integrate it into the main story instead of a secondary track that only carries over the mechanical benefits to the rest of the game.
 
P5's only canonically gay characters were a couple of stereotypes whom were also implied pedophiles
I thought La La Escargot was another character who was gay and was one of the better written NPCs.

But yeah they gay couple was universely panned as trash.
 
It's just that this whole "representation in videogames" thing seems to be going the extremist way. Persona is set in Japan, so if we don't see any character that isn't Japanese you shouldn't be surprised. I guess I can't say the same for gay characters in Japan, but the recent trend of traps in anime being very popular and series like Senran Kagura having a sizable following among gay women doesn't make me think there's some sort of problem.

At the end of the day it all sounds like forcing something upon the creators; criticism is a thing but this "muh representation" is starting to have a sour taste of zeal.

P5's only canonically gay characters were a couple of stereotypes whom were also implied pedophiles
... I don't think it was a way of saying all homosexuals are also pedophiles but what the fuck Atlus
 
In persona 5's case, it's less of a lack of representation and more of a lack of ambition in what it set out to do.
When early info on P5 came out, about how the game was about people who were affected by society, I was expecting a game that pulled back the curtains on issues in real Japan, things like homelessness, drug addiction, race relations, etc. I was hoping for a game that got down and dirty and honest with these sorts of things. It'd be shocking and real, the kind of thematic step-up that would make Persona a real powerhouse.
And while persona 5 does have things like that (societal stigma against criminals, false conviction, abuse of power, abuse of women, etc), it's ultimately a very clean game. It challenges the player, broadly, to go against authority where the greater good is concerned. And that's all well and good, fight the man, fuck the cops, etc
But it's still ultimately just a power fantasy for the Everyman player. How you, the player, are critically important to changing society and the efforts you, the player, make are the ones that really matter.
It's tacky, imo. The game shouldn't make the player feel good for baseline rebellion and morality, but rather challenge your ideas of what's acceptable and what needs to be challenged/stopped/changed.

And the game fails at that imo, it contradicts it's own messages left and right (look no further than Ann), it makes the player character the center of the universe to an obnoxious degree, and portrays real problems being committed by friggin' captain planet villains.
It's just a really clean, safe, valid game overall and that's more disappointing than any gay route could be
 
It's just that this whole "representation in videogames" thing seems to be going the extremist way. Persona is set in Japan, so if we don't see any character that isn't Japanese you shouldn't be surprised. I guess I can't say the same for gay characters in Japan, but the recent trend of traps in anime being very popular and series like Senran Kagura having a sizable following among gay women doesn't make me think there's some sort of problem.

At the end of the day it all sounds like forcing something upon the creators; criticism is a thing but this "muh representation" is starting to have a sour taste of zeal.


... I don't think it was a way of saying all homosexuals are also pedophiles but what the fuck Atlus
it is a way of saying that if the ONLY HOMOSEXUAL MALES IN THE GAME ARE then yes it is saying just that.
 
It's just a really clean, safe, valid game overall and that's more disappointing than any gay route could be
I'm pretty sure this isn't your first rodeo with the Persona titles but especially with P3 and up, the stories have always been on the same tier as an After school special. P3 was the best with regards to handling it's subject matter until it's end which was a bit ham-handed. P4 however was really clumsy with the idea of "images that society holds for others" and the individual routes were pretty simplistic as well. P5 is much in the same way from what I've played, and that's just the state of current atlus. It's also a part of why SMT 4 was a really shallow experience for me and I have avoided 4/A.

Persona 2 is the strongest entry story-wise because it was short, concise, every character had connections to each other and the main conflicts, and the narrative didn't try and force multiple lenses on the same social issues. But overall Persona as a series has always been less "heavy" with it's subject matter when compared to the Earlier Mainline SMT games so people who were expecting a lot of depth and introspection to a franchise that has become a mass-appeal series really were getting their hopes up.
 
it is a way of saying that if the ONLY HOMOSEXUAL MALES IN THE GAME ARE then yes it is saying just that.
In Borderlands 2 the only bisexual man (iirc) is a guy obsessed with explosions and naming the guns he produces after sex puns.

Does that mean Borderlands 2 is saying all bisexual men are obsessed with explosions and sex puns?
 
Oh...

Well I guess I have nothing more to say about that.
 
Yeah you should probably stop talking about this topic you clearly know nothing about and move on.
 
So basically I have to agree with you or face something?

I'm dropping the argument for now, but don't expect me to shut up next time it's brought up (which btw I hope it won't be).

Btw Ruin I don't judge you for being bisexual or liking explosion, but I do judge people on sex jokes, unless well executed and timed properly.
 
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I'm dropping the argument for now.
Good idea, especially since the whole thread went completely off topic because of it.