Guilty Gear Thread
- Thread starter Zombies8MyLeg
- Start date
shoryusatsu999
Nothing but footdive!
Arc? Big? When compared to companies like EA and Activision? Nooooooooooooo.
Horseman
This place ain't how it used to be
...but they can make more money with more platforms. Objectively.
I didn't say that they would go under or some shit because they didn't release on xbox, there's just literally no reason not to if sony isn't giving them shit for not doing it.
shoryusatsu999
Nothing but footdive!
But would it be enough to justify putting Xrd on the Xbone? I highly doubt it.
Horseman
This place ain't how it used to be
Xbone? Maybe not. (But then again, the ps4 release probably will probably take a while to break even. Probably a bit quicker than the xbone, but not significantly- they HAVE to be getting money from sony to release on PS4.)
360? Definitely.
Horseman
This place ain't how it used to be
Then they ignore them like they already are right now. Not exactly difficult.
Mkay. Yeah. Makes perfect sense. Mmmhmmm. You should be a business major.
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Tomo009
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it won't necessarily by optimised well, but unless they have done something I don't know about, Unreal games should be able to just be compiled and exported for PC, they would need to market and distribute it though and I doubt they will.
Horseman
This place ain't how it used to be
I'm sorry, it's just that I don't entirely understand what you're saying. Or at least I assume so.
As far as I can tell, your point is "They'll already make so much money from the PS3 release, why would they want to make more?"
RurouniLoneWolf
Avenger of the Dark
Well, this thread turned into a train wreck out of nowhere. A few things need to be cleared up
1) Highly doubt the unreal engine does anything but create an executable that you can attempt to run. If you're lucky, it'll reach the title screen but a much more realistic expectation is that it just crashes every time you try to launch it. Long story short, you are still looking at months of work to do the port.
2) "ASW is a big company" - No, not really. If anything they are somewhere in the middle of the small company bracket
3) "The more platforms you sell your game on, the more profit you make" - Again, no. This is a very common opinion among gamers that fails to recognize that ports cost money to make and that it's very possible for the port to not sell enough to make enough profit to cover those costs, especially for small companies whose games don't sell that much to begin with. At which point, not only is the port not making them any profit but it is also chipping away at the profits of the versions that did sell well.
4) "A 360 or PC port would definitely sell well" - Your enthusiasm is nice but ASW has the detailed financial reports for the 360 versions of BBCT, BBCS, BBCSE, maybe P4A and GG:AC+ as well as the PC version of BBCT to know how well a port would sell. And without a doubt, they looked over these reports before they decided to axe the PC version of BB and the 360 version of BBCP and their upcoming products.
1) Highly doubt the unreal engine does anything but create an executable that you can attempt to run. If you're lucky, it'll reach the title screen but a much more realistic expectation is that it just crashes every time you try to launch it. Long story short, you are still looking at months of work to do the port.
2) "ASW is a big company" - No, not really. If anything they are somewhere in the middle of the small company bracket
3) "The more platforms you sell your game on, the more profit you make" - Again, no. This is a very common opinion among gamers that fails to recognize that ports cost money to make and that it's very possible for the port to not sell enough to make enough profit to cover those costs, especially for small companies whose games don't sell that much to begin with. At which point, not only is the port not making them any profit but it is also chipping away at the profits of the versions that did sell well.
4) "A 360 or PC port would definitely sell well" - Your enthusiasm is nice but ASW has the detailed financial reports for the 360 versions of BBCT, BBCS, BBCSE, maybe P4A and GG:AC+ as well as the PC version of BBCT to know how well a port would sell. And without a doubt, they looked over these reports before they decided to axe the PC version of BB and the 360 version of BBCP and their upcoming products.
Nap1400
must get good
I do have to bring up a couple of things about BBCT on PC: one, it was on Games for Windows Live, which everyone knows sucks. Two, it also came out around the time BBCS came out for consoles, meaning everyone wanted the new game rather than the old one. Those problems could've caused a hit in sales that has little to do with actual interest.
Everything else I agree with, but that particular part stood out.
Everything else I agree with, but that particular part stood out.
Pfantzypantz
The inner machinations of my mind are an enigma.
To the PC port not selling aswell, it wasn't even released on Steam, and no one knew it had a PC port as it wasn't advertised at all. It's like they didn't want it to sell so that they could have an excuse to not bring the rest of the series to PC. Even to this day, people still get surprised when you tell them CT is on PC. Isuka is a good step forward in putting it on steam, but once again, no one is going to buy it because it lacks netplay and is not regarded well by most people.
Horseman
This place ain't how it used to be
There will be bugs and optimization issues, sure, but it's not going to be all that difficult as far as ports go. Months of beta testing, I highly doubt months of just trying to get it to work.
I wasn't trying to say that they just had to click the compile button and email valve, but it's really not that difficult. Steam is much easier and cheaper to get into than a new console, the port involves a relatively small amount of reprogramming, and the audience is there if KoF XIII and Skullgirls ports are anything to go off of.
I understand that, but the audience on the 360 and pc are very real, this is the most anticipated game they've made in a long time. Plus, they're porting to PS4. Nobody is porting to PS4 if they aren't being funded by Sony. If they aren't being funded by Sony, the PS4 has literally no chance of making their money back, especially if they think the audience is too small for a 360 port. I still say they have an exclusivity deal.
What @Nap1400 said. It came out for literally the most hated pc game DRM of all time, that is now dying because Microsoft actually knows they fucked it up, and it came there exclusively. That alone should ruin your sales, but it came out late, it wasn't advertised, etc. You can't use a game where you didn't even try to predict all your future game's success rates.
RurouniLoneWolf
Avenger of the Dark
For the most part, both of these issues don't really change anything. The reason for this is that it does not take into account what ASW can and can't do. If all ASW can do is make a Game For Windows Live version (Probably because it was very reliant on the 360 version) and do the port after console release with a small team, then nothing would really change in the end. Or to be more specific to this situation, you won't have to worry about a Games For Windows Live version, but because this option is not available, it might be become harder for ASW to do a PC port, which means they would have to spend more time on it.
Well then be prepared to be surprised because it'll be months of work to get it to work to a point worth testing and not months of testing. I don't know why you think you wouldn't have to rewrite/expand on very critical portions of your code to make it work properly on PC but it's the reality of the situation. In a way you could call this bug fixing and optimizations but honestly, considering the overall severity of the bugs and the amount of work you'd have to do to fix them and then optimize, I most definitely wouldn't call it that.
Also, for clarity, unless you're doing an MMO or you're Blizzard, there's no need to do months of beta testing, which is really more play testing and balancing. For a typical game, Beta should hopefully be brief. Maybe a month. Two max. But again, at the end of the day, it depends on the developers and the testers. If you have good developers capable of squashing major bugs quickly and good testers capable of finding the majority of the issues quickly, it'll go by quickly.
It doesn't matter how real the audience is if the profit you would get from sales just isn't there. Also, no. Just because you're doing a PS4 port doesn't mean you are being funded by Sony at all. They're probably being extremely helpful in troubleshooting stuff for potential developers to encourage people to develop for it but I highly doubt Sony is actually paying everyone to do PS4 ports. A lot of developers are probably just making ports because they see an opportunity to capitalize on the lack of games currently for the system. People will be on the lookout for any and all good games at this stage in the PS4's life. In a lot of ways, a Xrd PS4 port is very smart because as far as PS4 owners are concerned, the only other competition in the genre currently is Injustice.
Dagwood
Well-Known Member
Yeah that's the textbook way developers screw over pc gamers.
>Release game a year after it's been on consoles
>Consoles already have, or will soon have updated version
>Poor sales
>Company says "See? Noone wants PC fighting games! the sales were low!"
>I facepalm.
Zazz
Mysterious.
This is one of those "I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO FEEL" sort of news stories.
on one hand, it shows Arc has some sort of interest in steam, which is AWESOME
on the other, its isuka. like GG2, its an interesting experiment, but a perfect execution of the concept isn't there.
i don't really need it since i already own isuka on PS2.
that said: IT'S GOT COLOR EDITS! :3
And on a possible third hand, it could be a indication that Arc are not beneath the Capcom trademark scumbag move of holding a costly port/new title hostage until you buy everything they churn out, which is usually low quality ports of ooooooold titles.
"Want port/new game? Then you have to BUY ALL THE THINGS. It's the only way we can know you truly truly want it." *bats eyelids*
So...when's Baiken/Johnny/Testament/Dizzy?
The official site kinda gives the impression that the vanilla Xrd roster is finalized. Hopefully they'll keep adding characters and we can avoid the +s, Reloads, Slashes, Accent Cores, Mountain Dew Heroes GOTY Editions. Revisions are guaranteed, I just hope they don't go full ham on it.
Zazz
Mysterious.
This is Arc. They'll go SUPER HAM.
All this effort for models and effects can't be just for one game, its for the next decade of games.
That Man confirmed for Dorito Hat.
Zazz
Mysterious.
I'd can't really say. As I said, I already got it on PS2.
Maybe wait for a steam sale? The turn button thing is pretty awkward.
Horseman
This place ain't how it used to be
Err... GFWL is simply drm and a wrapper. It has to do with xbox in user database and that it can chat with 360 owners, but it doesn't make ports significantly easier. The more likely answer is that microsoft was giving benefits for companies to be exclusive to GFWL. It might be a bit harder to get on steam than gfwl since I'm sure there was some sort of arrangement where if you're already an official publisher for xbox you can skip the whole process on gfwl, although that doesn't apply anymore since they just published a game on steam so it's not much of a stretch to say that they can get Xrd on there too. At this point there's not really any reason that gfwl is the easier option here.
It would also be especially odd if they decided not to port to xbox but are still willing to work with microsoft for GFWL. So if GFWL were still around it still wouldn't be where Xrd would get published.
I said "relatively."
It's not the magic port button but it's pretty low difficulty as far as ports go. It could be a whole lot worse. The only thing that's easier to port off of is Unity, off the top of my head.
USF4 is being released on PC, along with SFxT and SF4:AE being released there in the past few years.
SNK has said that they look forward to releasing more games on steam, and there's quite a bit of evidence of more snk ports coming in the steam database.
Mortal Kombat was very successful on pc, leading to Injustice later being released on steam as well.
If the above is anything to go on (and it's a hell of a lot more to go on than the BBCT port) there's a pretty decent audience of pc users that are willing to pay for fighting games.
I've done a decent amount of research on this stuff- the benefits of exclusivity among other game publishing stuff... and I haven't read anything that talks about exclusivity with no benefits like it's a good thing. In fact I can find very limited evidence that it even happens with any decent frequency, or that it's a real thing that publishers consider. I just started looking briefly, and all I could find was a quote from Sophie Holden from an article about the Ouya free the games campaign. She says “Platform exclusivity is almost always beneficial for developers, assuming they aren’t giving it over for free, that is.” I think she's joking. And this is the person arguing that devs should be platform exclusive.
And the PS4 is still a massive risk. There's not much competition, but you're competing for a pretty small audience compared to the PS3 and even the 360/PC. I would say that it could work out in the long run, but the iterative business model that games like guilty gear take are much more interested in the short run since they cut off their accumulative sales early by releasing a better version of the same game about a year after the first one.
That business model is also part of the reason that I think it's an exclusivity deal- this is very beneficial for Sony if it's trying to get people to move from the PS3 onto the PS4. Release the first version on both, all of a sudden the next version of the game is PS4 only and it has (insert highly anticipated character) in it! So if you want to actually compete in a game that you put hundreds of hours getting good at you now have to buy a PS4. That's a pretty good marketing scheme for sony as it is.
Horseman
This place ain't how it used to be
I didn't even say that "it will happen this way." The vast majority of that post isn't even specifically about Arc/Xrd's predicament specifically. I wrote one small paragraph about that- that basically states that releasing on PS4 is risky. That's at worst the same amount of speculation that you and lone wolf are making about Arc's predicament here.
Either way, it's not like deduction is a bad thing. I only really have an idea about what's going to happen to me in the future- I could be killed in a car accident later on today for all I know- so does that mean I just shouldn't think about the future at all?
RurouniLoneWolf
Avenger of the Dark
Depends on what they used to do the port. In Xrd's case, we talked about the unreal engine specifically creating an executable for them. What they used for BBCT port could have been something similar except more specific to 360 and with the end result of a GFWL game. Live itself also comes with its own features that ASW wouldn't have to reprogram themselves. But for now, let us settle this with the fact that we both agree that if they did a PC version of Xrd, it wouldn't be for GFWL.
And what I'm saying is that just because it's relatively easier, doesn't mean it isn't still going to require lots of work, which directly translates to spending a noteworthy sum of money to make it happen. It'll also take away resources, which are limited for a small company like ASW.
It isn't, at least in my opinion. That SNK comment doesn't really say much one way or the other besides that they are looking forward to releasing more games on Steam. Without knowing much about SNK themselves and their games, I can't really speculate what this means. SF games are made by Capcom. Despite what they might claim (and a lot of other big companies as well), there will always at least be a market to break even on a PC port. Mortal Kombat and Injustice are also in a similar boat. SF, Mortal Kombat and Injustice, all these games sell WAY better than your typical ASW game to begin with. Even if their PC ports did fail, the profits they generate from the other platforms would be so great that it isn't really an issue to begin with.
...Do you really need evidence to know that people do exclusivity without benefits from a console publisher? Do you actually think console manufacturers pay every small company like Nippon Ichi, Imagepoch, Idea Factory, Compile Heart, etc. to only release their game on their console and they don't do it because its cheaper for them to make it for just the one console that has proven to have sufficient demand for the particular game?
The issue you are having in comparing PS4 vs 360 is that you are focusing simply on install base. You aren't focusing on something much more important to selling a game or a product in general: Demand. PS3 and 360 have much greater install bases, sure but on the other hand, there are so many games coming out/already out that competition is fierce. With games like SF, SFxT, MK, Injustice, DOA, VF, KOF, MvC, Tekken, SG, Divekick and even their own games, BB and P4U (though technically this is Atlus' game), it's easy for people to just pass on GG altogether for one reason or another, especially with the non existent marketing ASW does in the west. Also, I don't think an exclusivity deal really benefits Sony in this case. ASW pull is just too small compared to other companies they could invest in. Not sure I really agree with your view on how Sony benefits either but no need to go into that because of the previous point anyway.
Also, I failed to mention it earlier but ports have long term benefits as well. Doing a port gives them experience in dealing with a new console for a smaller financial investment than a completely new game. This experience can be used to cut down development time and costs for future PS4 developments.
Horseman
This place ain't how it used to be
Okay, since you want a low budget air dasher with anime graphics how about this one?
You can screw around with that number a bit since the $15 price point probably helped, but skullgirls still had a hell of a lot more going against it than Xrd does:
>Indigogo means that a shit ton of people already own the port and they aren't counted in steam sales
>Smaller fan base
>Not established off of an already long running series
>MUCH harder to port considering the engine is custom
>Even more of the stuff that turns people away from anime fighters- super fast paced gameplay and panty shots everywhere
And they still managed to break even. If that isn't a good enough example, the only thing that's going to prove that steam can sell xrd for you is xrd actually going on steam.
I still think you're way overestimating the time and cost of the port, but we're kind of going in circles here. Yes, it would cost money in the form of paying programmers, and it would take a significant amount of time. But the cost isn't by any means massive so it won't take very many sales for them to break even.
I would estimate around $80,000-$100,000 (small calculation based on a small group of programmers working for 3 months) for the total development costs of the port. Assuming the cut valve takes is 30% (which is iirc the maximum cut they ever take out of a game, and they usually only take that much from games that are around $15 or cheaper) they would need about 2000-2500 preorder sales to break even within the first couple of days. That's actually a conservative estimate too, considering the straight calculated amount for a $100,000 budget was 2381 copies. I think they can make that. And if they can't, steam is one of the best places to accumulate money over time considering there's a massive sale at least twice a year with hundreds of thousands of people ready to impulse buy your game before they know anything about it simply because it says "-75%."
They're in a different position; they're not exclusive to playstation, they just don't have the capital/knowledge to take a risk on another platform. If they could, they would likely be on everything. Arc, on the other hand, has already been on xbox for a good 90% of that console's lifespan so they probably weren't constantly failing to break even. I mean, they even made GG2 xbox exclusive... they had to be making money off the platform for the most part, otherwise they would have stopped supporting it long before Chronophantasma. Either Sony struck them a deal or xbox sale plummeted to dangerous levels for some reason, scaring arc away from the platform.
Not that they shouldn't be on PC; for most games, releasing on pc is low cost and low risk, and it's very low budget friendly, especially with the impending change to an open marketplace a la google play.
Well, for one thing I would like to mention that fighting games are still pretty sparse on PC, and compared to PS4 they have a way way way way bigger install base, so by this logic porting to PC is the best idea ever!
If you're just multiplying install base by competition, then you're going to end up with some pretty shallow numbers considering all of those games are on PS3 too. But yes, install base is a big issue here. It will always be risky to move to a new console, especially early in its lifespan- to say otherwise is silly, really. It has a lower amount of players at the moment than any other platform, it probably has plenty new libraries that the devs have to learn, it's just uncharted territories.
How in the world does exclusivity not benefit sony? In what circumstance does sony dislike exclusivity? They aren't capcom, but they still make games that are at least decently popular.
RurouniLoneWolf
Avenger of the Dark
To be honest, SG has/had a lot more going for it for a PC port
- The hype we generated for the Breast Cancer and IGG Crowd funding created a crazy amount of free marketing for SG across pretty much every gaming site.
- SG and ASW popularity in terms of demographic is pretty much reversed. SG is mostly popular here in the west while ASW's titles are mostly popular in Japan. This is important because from my understanding among small Japanese developers, PC Gaming isn't as big in Japan.
- To be honest, I'm not really sure we actually have a smaller fan base at this point. I mean we without a doubt have a smaller competitive scene. But after the Breast Cancer and IGG funding, that SRK poll where we somehow managed to beat BBCP for Fighting Game of the Year even though we're probably less than 1/3 the size of the BB competitive community and now these sales numbers, I'm starting to think we might actually be on par with ASW games in terms of overall fanbase.
- $15 price tag really isn't something to downplay in my opinion. I've seen people spend similar amounts on games during Steam sales that they either never end up playing or play once and never play again just because it was a good price.
I wouldn't say that the only thing that would convince me that Xrd would sell well is Xrd selling well but rather you really haven't given me a reason to think it would. The closest example you've given me so far is KOF XIII but then again, the PC version of KOF XIII had the very big plus of an online that was actually good. This alone made it worth buying the game a second time, especially if you don't really have a local scene for the game. In short though, my goal here was only ever to make you realize that a PC port isn't necessarily going to sell well.
...
- You still think this will only take 3 months to get done
- You somehow think only programmers need to get paid
- You think all it takes to break even is selling 2000-2500, a ridiculously low number that literally almost any game can meet
Yeah, I'm just going to skip this point. This does explain why you're so confident that a PC port would sell well. Man, that was really bothering me. Glad, to finally understand that one.
Also, I wouldn't say I'm overestimating the work load. I would say this is my realistic expectation from being the top tester on several games for 2-3 years, my computer science education, my experience and knowledge of game programming and my experience from being a full time programmer for a year and counting. You just underestimate work loads and don't have a a good understanding of how easy it is to fall behind schedule in software development in general because of unexpected issues A-Z.
I wouldn't say they're in a different position at all really. As was seen with the whole Konami Def Jam fiasco, capital can be gotten by loans from the bank if need be. Knowledge of 360 and other platforms would have to be learned but it was no different for ASW in the beginning either. ASW making money off the 360 version of their games also wasn't 100% necessary. At the end of the day, it's important to look at the overall picture. If the PS3 version's profits covered the losses, then everything would have still been fine. A much more realistic analysis of why there is no longer a 360 port of their games: Weak sales + lack of resources now that they have to split their resources between BB and GG as well as the P4U games = 360 port not worth the trouble.
Again, you place too much emphasis on install base size. Maybe if Xrd was releasing now, I could see your point but by the time Xrd releases around fall/winter, the PS4 will probably have an install base of 10-20 million, which is a respectable amount to start getting solid sales and why a lot of the big games start to appear a year after the release of the console.
I don't believe Sony benefits from exclusivity because in order for it to be worth the effort in the first place, the game either has to A) Sell considerably more on their platform(s) so they can at least make up the money they used to pay people off in royalties or B) Get people to buy PS4s. It's pointless to do this for A) because the reality is that ASW games already sell their majority on Sony platforms because the games are mostly popular in Japan where 360 is dead and Europe usually opts to import on PS3 instead of waiting 6 months to a year for the localization and ASW games don't sell that much to begin with. And B) doesn't really feel like it needs explaining. I feel like it should just naturally follow at this point why I don't think it'll sell a significant amount of PS4s, especially when there's going to be a PS3 version.
Anyway, I'm pretty much done with this conversation now. There's no real point to this discussion since I honestly don't really care if there's a PC or 360 port of the game. If it was up to me, ASW games and SG games would sell millions, be on all platforms and rival Capcom fighting games. I'm just trying to get people to be a bit more realistic in terms of their outlook. This wasn't a bad conversation. You made analysis and you even tried to do your research. You just need to be more thorough and more thoughtful with your analysis. Well, it's been fun. Sorry for derailing the thread a bit guys ;.;
Horseman
This place ain't how it used to be
Well, that's... incredibly condescending.
I didn't realize this discussion was graded.
RurouniLoneWolf
Avenger of the Dark
Are these story specific intros? That's pretty cool. When did they take these out?
eh, okay? You can take it however you want. All I'm saying is that it wasn't a bad conversation, which the vast majority of conversations on the Internet are. Add whatever unnecessary extra messages you want to it.
Horseman
This place ain't how it used to be
I didn't think you were trying to be rude, it was just kind of... pretentious? I can't think of a single word that describes it, it's being condescending but not in a malicious or mean way. Like you thought I would be excited to hear that you found me knowledgeable, but not as knowledgeable as you. Like the red lettered note a professor writes at the end of your essay when you just did "good enough."
RurouniLoneWolf
Avenger of the Dark
I see. Guess I view it differently because critique is just critique for me. Whether people feel bad or good about what they've heard is ultimately up to them based on whether they agree with the critique, their own expectations and the things they want to achieve after all.
shoryusatsu999
Nothing but footdive!
GUYSGUYSGUYS! Xrd's launching next month!
Zazz
Mysterious.
needs more Dizzy. Ky's gotta save his waifu.