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Guilty Gear Thread

So the netcode is ass again? Ggs ark. Another fighting game i play in training mode only.

Why the fuck cant these fighting game developers put rollback code in their games for the love of god.


All these great fighting games i want to play and none are playable online except for sg...

This like kills a game before it ever gets off the ground.

Sg's netcode is literally the primary thing keeping the game alive, and these other fighting game devs cant learn anything.

Like... My god. I'm so pissed off that good netcode has been available for years and years and the only games that have had it are seriously old games, sg and sfxt...

There is like 1 good newschool fighting game that has ggpo in it... Man.

So pissed. I played p4a for like a day and then played the terrible online and couldnt do anything and then the game just collected dust. Is it really to hard to put good netcode in a fighting game?

Like... How in the hell does this even happen... I'm flabbergasted at this. Triple A fighting game companies NOT putting every ounce of ability to make good netcode, and yet making games play online... I just... Gah man w/e.
 
Well said ash, well said.

-edit

Wait a minute... I dont know much at all about these games but arent the makers of BB/gg/p4a an american company?

I thought at least one of those was made by an american company, but i also thought that they were all made by the same company... I'm just confused... Would someone care to educate me on what the hell the difference between aksys/arc system works/whatever other company is in there is? Cause i have no clue.

And like are any of said companies american? And if not where am i getting that from? cause i read somewhere that the company that made bb was american somehow... But idk its been awhile and i only skimmed stuff.
 
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Oh wait, so is the netcode bad? How bad? Is it overall, o just ps3 to ps4, ps3 to ps3, ps4 to ps4? I'm legit worried, online play is really important for the community here.
 
@Dime_x, ArcSys is a Japanese company that developed GG, BB and P4A, while Aksys games is an American publisher that localized those games in USA and Europe (IIRC). BTW, not everyone seems to love GGPO-style rollback netcode. There are people on Dustloop who claim that GGPO has a reputation of being associated with piracy (Don't ask me why. I have no clue). There are also some people who complain about bad rollback connections where characters teleport, and they honestly prefer SF4-style netcode because of that.

I don't have Xrd yet, but the netcode is not 100% doom and gloom. I've been told that matches with 2f-6f delay are actually stable, but Ranked Mode has a lot of problems right now, and I also heard that some lobby matches start lagging because of spectators, especially if it's Japanese spectators visiting Northern/Eastern European lobbies.
 
From what I've played the PS4 version runs better online than the PS3 version. I believe they said they will try to patch the online though.
 
Bedman's Theme: Done. (Should I start collecting these somewhere else? I don't want to spam.)
 

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@Dime_x

I think it's hyperbole to say that only SG has "good netcode" (and that this is because of GGPO).

I think it depends on what you define as being "good netcode". Before sfxt and SG, Blazblue had a reputation for generally having good netcode. And I think it's a severe exaggeration to say that "triple A fighting game companies" should be putting every effort into their netcode. The genre is still primarily Japanese, Japan's broadband is leagues ahead of America's and many other places in the west (Europe apparently has much better broadband) and the country is tiny, and a lot of fighting gamers still play in arcades. Quite frankly Japanese developers don't have the environment to be developing netcode suitable for cross-country netplay.

I wonder if anybody can, or if it's physically possible to get results that are that good. GGPO is great and all, but it doesn't change the reality of a bad connection, and latency or jitter in a GGPO-based online match kills the experience just as much as games that don't have rollbacks. The purpose of rollbacks is to solve conflicts between clients, and if one player has a poor connection there are going to be a lot of rollbacks anyway; GGPO can't change that. Actually, I think if you talk to a lot of people who use GGPO for different games you might find that the experience per game varies wildly. GGPO works well in Skullgirls because the game has great netcode. A game with worse netcode that has GGPO still has bad netcode. GGPO and rollbacks are just one part of it.

I agree that the idea of having rollbacks should become standard in fighting games, but I'm also not knowledgeable about the subject and I'm also unaware of the amount of overhead involved in implementing rollbacks so I can't make judgements when someone like Harada states that (paraphrasing) rollbacks aren't good for all fighting games.

Vladislav_Paizis said:
BTW, not everyone seems to love GGPO-style rollback netcode. There are people on Dustloop who claim that GGPO has a reputation of being associated with piracy (Don't ask me why. I have no clue). There are also some people who complain about bad rollback connections where characters teleport, and they honestly prefer SF4-style netcode because of that.

I don't have Xrd yet, but the netcode is not 100% doom and gloom. I've been told that matches with 2f-6f delay are actually stable, but Ranked Mode has a lot of problems right now, and I also heard that some lobby matches start lagging because of spectators, especially if it's Japanese spectators visiting Northern/Eastern European lobbies.

Actually, to give an explanation to the whole piracy thing, I was under the impression that GGPO's origins were to provide a solution for netplay in arcade emulation. Emulation is already legal grey territory, and arcade boards are expensive, so arcade emulation would doubly so be associated with piracy.

ashxu said:
glorious nippon will not lower itself to use gaijin netcode ggpo

This, with less sarcasm. I was surprised when Xrd was revealed to be using Unreal Engine 3. That engine comes with its own network architecture for FPS games (which have included rollback and prediction since QuakeWorld), but I doubt it could be easily used for fighting games, or in the way that ArcSys was experienced with, so they probably went with an implementation similar to P4A and BB instead (with differing results since the engine and game are fundamentally different). I'm not going to blame ArcSys for not having rollback-style netcode in Xrd because they were probably under severe time constraints given how quickly the game was released.

But there are exceptions; Yatagarasu is supposedly going to include GGPO, and even though they were outsourced to Iron Galaxy some of Capcom's properties like 3SOE have GGPO.

Also, I heard somewhere that development on GGPO has stopped, and it seems to me that the website has been down. This doesn't provide an excuse for fg devs to avoid rollbacks but it does give a case for a specific lack of GGPO if development has indeed stopped.
 
While I agree that SGs netcode is probably the best I've played, I don't think it is heads and shoulders above the others.

SFIV's online before the Steam move was very solid (and little by little gets better again... I hope).

P4U is generally fine if you let the intros load (something that a lot of people don't do)... seriously, this is so crucial that I actually hate that they let you skip the intros. I'm actually considering starting a list of people who skip and just avoiding playing them. It is that important.

Now XRD is being said to be 'fine'. It's not going to win any awards, but I don't think it is the end of the game either. Sounds like the problem is mostly localized to ranked, but until I get my hands on the damn game I won't know for certain. It should also improve with patches.

I've heard great things about UNIEL's netcode (can anyone confirm?).

And BB was always supposedly pretty good, though I've not gone online with that as P4U took up my time.
 
Spencer said:
I've heard great things about UNIEL's netcode (can anyone confirm?).
I don't really enjoy it. It feels like ArcSys netcode, but much worse. 3 and 4 bars are good; 2 bars are 50/50 and 0-1 bars are mostly crap. It also has a buggy Player Mode: nobody will see your lobby if you set a connection limit. People will join only if you let your room accept ALL connections. This doesn't happen in ArcSys games at least. I live in Estonia and for some reason my worst UNIEL connections were with French players, despite 2 bars.
 
Vladislav_Paizis said:
I don't really enjoy it. It feels like ArcSys netcode, but much worse. 3 and 4 bars are good; 2 bars are 50/50 and 0-1 bars are mostly crap. It also has a buggy Player Mode: nobody will see your lobby if you set a connection limit. People will join only if you let your room accept ALL connections. This doesn't happen in ArcSys games at least. I live in Estonia and for some reason my worst UNIEL connections were with French players, despite 2 bars.

See I have little issue with Arcsys netcode as it pertains to P4U. I can generally get pretty solid games even at 0 bars so long as people let both the stage and character intros play.

But that is a bummer to hear about UNIEL. I'm pretty excited for it though I opted against buying the JP version, and so I wait.
 
so you guys are upset over the fact that it's not fun to play people online who have bad connections? so am I allowed to get mad when someone has a 500 ping on skullgirls? like, the netcode is good for SG but it's not a godsend or anything. just play people with good connections.
 
Yeah ive been over this over and over and over again on srk. Cliffs notes:

Rollback is the best netcode out there. BOTTOM LINE. The implementation of sg's style of rollback being the literal best of both worlds, in semi bad connections you can choose between smooth non rollbacky gameplay with high amounts of input lag, or a more choppy but less input delay experience.


I play Korea from perth and the ping is generally 215-250 ms and these games are actually playable if i set my delay to like 3 or 4.

Being able to choose between whichever option, is a godsend. Almost every player that ive ever heard of liking input delay more than rollback has been a combo of: lesser skilled players, or people trying to make extremely high ping matches play like offline, or people that have super good internet connections.

Rollback netcode can work NEAR miracles... But it isnt perfect.

As far as the "can it even be improved" argument... How can it not be? It was worked on and developed by one guy in his basement for free with no pay... If that doesnt scream "improve me pls" i dont know what does.

As far as BB netcode, the first one was good that i played, but subsequent versions seemed to get progressively worse. And the first BB is no longer the one that is being played and the game generally slowed down very noticeably in order to get the lower amounts of input delay.


I dont think its hyperbolic at all to think that fg companies could have some ridiculously phat good awesome netcode available by now. The problem is very simple. They just have HIGHLY incompetent people working at them with regards to knowing how and why to implement rollback netcode... After all most of these companies cant even get the button config right. They design good fighting games mechanically and graphically speaking.. But dont know shit about netcode... Which is like a company designing the best race car ever and then giving it terrible wheels and wondering why their car underperforms in every race.

Its like a fighting game player having some of the best sako style combos out there and yet having a terrible ass neutral and wondering why they cant win... Or like having the most awesome neutral ever but cant do combos at all and wondering why they lose the instant the other player manages to hit them.


In this day and age it isnt enough to just have good netcode or just have a well designed game... You need both, which is why it makes sense for fg companies to get off their lazy asses and develop some top notch code and code implementation, because most of them have the good fighting game part, down (if you played fighting games in the nineties you would understand just how badly designed fighting games can be from a mechanical perspective) well they've come a loooong way from way back then... But they havent crossed the finish line yet because they have dropped the ball on the netcode.


And anyways so much for cliffs notes.
 
Ruin said:
git gud (internet connections)

mate, dime and i live in australia

we have worse overall internet than third world countries, and our previous government made conscious effort to hamstring efforts to get better internet to the whole country

The only reason Japanese companies keep using frame delay netcode instead of rollback or rollback/frame delay choosing like GGPO, is because they only use Japan to test their netcode and if it works perfectly in Japan(which has godlike internet speeds) then they don't give a shit about anywhere else.

There is literally no reason not to have rollback netcode if you want a global audience.

GGPO netcode is the ONLY REASON SG is my main game. I can play it at home all day with 0 frame delay across the country and into new zealand, and in literally every other fighting game I have to eat 3-6 frames of delay interstate, with the occasional rare good connection that almost feels like online, I have to connect to someone within my city... And even then only sometimes it isn't laggy.

If KoF, UMVC3, SF4... literally like any other fighting game that gets more players in local/interstate tournaments had netcode as good as SG, SG would probably just be a side game that I only sometimes pay attention to. I have not played a game of Xrd that felt like it had less than 6 frames of delay yet.
 
Am I the only one who is getting very playable, some, I would even say, good connections?

I've only had one game that was horribly laggy and the connection was flickering between 1 and 2.

Most of my connections have been 3 or 4, with some playable 2s, I can even go for I-No IAD combos on 3/4 connection just fine (except I'm dropping them still because hitstop is longer)

@ClarenceMage appears as a 0 for me, but that always happens in Arc Sys games. Haven't seen what the connection with him is like though.
 
Vladislav_Paizis said:
There are also some people who complain about bad rollback connections where characters teleport, and they honestly prefer SF4-style netcode because of that.
The whole point about SG's GGPO implementation is that you can pick your poison.
"Lagfree" but rollback-heavy on bad connections is fine with you? Set Delay to 0
Want 100% no rollbacks, but don't mind if the inputs are delayed as shit? Set Delay to 8

Spencer said:
SFIV's online before the Steam move was very solid
Sure wasn't

You don't need GGPO to have a proper online experience. You don't even need Rollback netcode!

Knowing that Fighting Games in this day and age are played 99% online (outside of Jp/Korea), you can build your game from the ground up to be less susceptible to input issues.
A base example is BlazBlue's "inbuilt turbo" mechanic, where holding a button rapidfires it multiple times in a row, making links easy no matter the lag.
A possible option would be to have 2f input delay always (also during offline play!), so people get used to the timing and there's no difference between offline and 2f online lag.

And well, you can always of course just build a good netcode by yourself. Japan just doesn't care.
 
I believe GG Xrd has the turbo buffer too, if not then it just has a REALLLLY lenient buffer for some things, like dashes, RCs and even Slayer's "sorta" links
 
All i want is bridget and testament. I will be a happy man if that happens. As it is now i would go venom but I'm kinda finding him boring since he's so figured out already.

Other options are may cause i like her intended playstyle, but i really dont like her character sprite... Then again i dont like testaments either.
 
A.B.A, Dizzy, and Zappa is my short list.

In game right now, I'm drawn toward Ramlethal Valentine, and Bedman.
 
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The fact that many people still don't know the difference between Arc System Works and Aksys games kinda helps explains things like "why do people keep thinking Bayonetta 2 is just at timed exclusive on the WiiU?"
 
Shin ATproof said:
The fact that many people still don't know the difference between Arc System Works and Aksys games kinda helps explains things like "why do people keep thinking Bayonetta 2 is just at timed exclusive on the WiiU?"

It doesn't help that their names are so similar. It would be easy to confuse Aksys as a shortening of Arc Systems.
 
alexpi said:
I-No feels easy mode now. QCB Chemical Love makes everything so much better.
Execution wise, she is.

Except, Chemical Love is nerfed, STBT is nerfed, far S is nerfed, YRC is actually WORSE for note than FRC, you get NOTHING off 5HS and 2HS counterhit now whereas you got like 60% in AC, sweep has less range than #R it feels.

I could keep going, she is still I-No, get a knockdown and win, but her neutral is nerfed pretty hard even from #R where it was pretty meh.
 
Jason said:
It doesn't help that their names are so similar. It would be easy to confuse Aksys as a shortening of Arc Systems.

Maybe it's because I've been playing these games before Aksys games was a publisher or when I shorten Arc System Works I say "ASW" and don't purposely try to confuse the two like when people write crap "Arksys".
 
Horseman said:
C is the original language because some programmer was boring as fuck and decided to name a language literally just the letter 'c'.
C was named such because it derived features from "B".

Horseman said:
C# is another dumb pun because the # means sharp which is one semitone higher in pitch. I guess this guy was making fun of the guy who named C++.
The # is also made up of four plus signs
++
++
because it's C++, ++.

Spencer said:
And BB was always supposedly pretty good, though I've not gone online with that as P4U took up my time.
BB was built from the bottom to work well with Arc's netcode - attacks are slow, hitstop is long. GGs are not built for that, and as such even with the SAME netcode they play worse.

Oh right, Xrd thread. Carry on.
 
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