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Guilty Gear Thread

I think if they corrected the changes Mike talked about in his post, with the exception of maybe YRC's because it could help newcomers even though it's too safe, they would still bring in more people because of the new graphics, tutorial, and a slower pace. The problems he talked about are mostly behind-the-scenes stuff that only competitive players will notice, so that would help both sides of the spectrum.
A slower pace does suck for a GG game, but hopefully that will draw in new players. It's so sad to hear people complain that fighting games are too fast and they just mash buttons like there's no tomorrow because they believe that's how you should play a fighting game.
 
Mike_Z said:
Sure.
They are not at all related in any way, other than the fact that L-cancel cuts off some of your landing recovery and the RCs cut off your recovery. But for different reasons and in different situations and for different costs. Not a lot of terminology from Smash carries over except some of the neutral-game stuff.
Is that...somehow helpful?

Thanks for the date, Lord Mike. But just une more question...
If ARC removed the unblockables from the game, will Zato, Milla and Elphet become trash tier or not?
 
Agent York said:
I enjoy how he tried to imply that it was a good thing that Potemkin was made "simpler", and didn't bother to mention the fact that Pot lost a lot of the moves and properties that he really benefited from. Or the fact that while characters like Zato, Millia, and Sol got new moves and tech that have made them better then they already were, other characters were left in the dust in terms of improving their playstyles...
shoryusatsu999 said:
Can't say I'm surprised you guys don't agree with him. I don't think he's ever actually played much Guilty Gear competitively, so it wouldn't surprise me if there's some sort of disconnect between his mindset on GG and the general competitive community's mindset on GG. Plus, it seems like he values simplicity over everything but balance when GG has never been simple or meant to be simple.

That's largely the problem with Sirlin's article; it's overly simplistic in its analysis on a number of issues. I agree with some of them, like FRCs being difficult as I have long believed it's the main barrier that has kept people away from getting seriously into Guilty Gear. And to be fair, there were indeed some odd choices in the design of Accent Core games, like moves having FRCs in places that don't really benefit anything or some characters having Forcebreaks that are rather gimmicky in their application. The whole article though reads like something written by someone that casually played GG but wants to give their 'authoritative' input. Points like "AC Potemkin slidehead is too good because people seem incapable of consistently escaping it" or "Things in Accent Core are different, I don't like that." Not being mean but if you claim to have played GG from X to AC and say: "I tried to find even one change I thought was good, then gave up", then you didn't really play AC very much or GG series in general...or at least not at a competent level. What kinda gives it away is him giving his analysis of the subsystems in GG and assuming Dead Angles started in XX. While Sirlin has a right to an opinion, it's just not a well informed one as I mentioned above and concluding "it's a good idea that Xrd has returned to simpler times" is rather ignorant.
 
Ruin said:
i think ultimately you gotta remember that fighting games are also an industry and the days of "making something for the fans or the community" is falling on the fans or the community themselves to accomplish whereas the actual companies producing the games are gonna try and sell their product to as many people as they can, as any business would try and do.

so if Xrd is dumbed down or slower like people say it is
then chances are they're trying to sell it to people that they know aren't already gonna buy it
but sometimes they do have the sense to listen to the community and make changes to the games in order to make people happier while not alienating the new audience

As Mike pointed out, going from Accent Core to Xrd is akin to playing SF2 series in which we have gone from SSF2T and then 6 years later we're given a version of SF2WW. Yes, Xrd is a "simpler" GG compared to some of its predecessors but many of the ideas that were done to make the game attractive to new players was applied to the wrong parts of the game and the parts they made different resulted in what I believe is an inferior product compared to the standards ASW set for themselves.

I find it somewhat infuriating that the Guilty Gear franchise has been around since 1998 and I remember hearing and reading Ishiwatari and Mori stating that while they felt Accent Core was a great game, they also believed Guilty Gear had become too complex for new players and that's why games like BlazBlue were designed the way they were initially to attract new players. In seeing how Xrd turned out, it's clear that in the 16+ years of this franchise, ASW has apparently had no real insight in how to make a new Guilty Gear more accessible and certainly not without sacrificing what is good about a game they acknowledged was good. Considering the painstaking amount time to make sure a 3D fighter looked and play nearly indistinguishable from its 2D predecessors makes that fact more heartbreaking.

Most GG players that find Xrd acceptable still tend to acknowledge the glaring faults of Xrd and find solace in the belief that future iterations of Xrd will address the game's problems and eventually result in a great title. To me, that's unacceptable especially considering ASW will be charging gamers $50 or more for each iteration until they -hopefully - make a game that is on par with what the majority of the community and ASW agreed was great before this complete reboot of the franchise.

If the endgame of ASW was to make this product in the hopes of attracting more gamers then they've likely failed since last time I checked Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax sold better 60K to Xrd's 40 and no way that game came anywhere close to the budget of Xrd.
 
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Shin ATproof said:
The whole article though reads like something written by someone that casually played GG but wants to give their 'authoritative' input...you didn't really play AC very much or GG series in general...or at least not at a competent level.
Like him or not, the guy has been involved in the scene for a pretty long time.
 
Was gamma blade a lot safer than I remember or was sirlin just being super ballsy on using them in neutral?
 
alexpi said:
Was gamma blade a lot safer than I remember or was sirlin just being super ballsy on using them in neutral?

Dunno what it was back then but in all the versions I've played it is + on block.
 
agent13 said:
ggs to @Zombies8MyLeg
We need to get a skullheart gg room going
ggs and yes sir we do.

I don't work Saturday so I'll make sure to have a lobby open for anybody that wants to join.
 
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please video game players tell me who Mr. Sirloin Steak is and why should I dislike him
 
Arcana said:
please video game players tell me who Mr. Sirloin Steak is and why should I dislike him
He used to play fighters, then he designed some pretty good card games and now he complains in blogs about anything new because "back in my day"
 
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About unblockables in this game has anyone tried to use Blitz Shield against them? I was testing if I could escape zato-1 and Elphelt unblockables and I could escape both setups with blitz shield but I'm not sure if I got the timing of the unblockables right.
 
Zombies8MyLeg said:
ggs and yes sir we do.

I don't work Saturday so I'll make sure to have a lobby open for anybody that wants to join.

Let me know. I've got a super scrub Bedman that is waiting to go 0/10!

PSN: QSpec

@Tomo009

You sound like you have described every pre-'09'er I've ever encountered...
 
Solaris said:
Thanks for the date, Lord Mike. But just une more question...
If ARC removed the unblockables from the game, will Zato, Milla and Elphet become trash tier or not?
I hate to steal a question for our lord and programmer, most esteemed Mok Zed, but since he's a busy man...
Short answer? No. Long Answer? Noooooooooooo. The reason why Eddie/Zato have been so esteemed for so many GGs isn't solely his unblockables. Yes they are one of the prime reasons that he's in a tier of his own in certain games, but it is also because even when you remove his unblockables, he is still a great character with reasonably good normals, good combo damage, amazing block and corner pressure, and easy access to lockdown into mixups. While it's too early to judge Elphelt completely, she looks to be the same way. Great normals, easy to get good combos off of many of said good normals and specials, really good damage off of relatively simple combos, good block and corner pressure, etc. The unblockables are just icing on an already delicious cake. Would they be S++ tier without unblockables? Surely not... but they would be nowhere near bottom tier. They both do share the issue of having poor defensive options, but that's a discussion for another day.

Also Millia doesn't have unblockables, don't know where you got that from.
 
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Agent York said:
I hate to steal a question for our lord and programmer, most esteemed Mok Zed, but since he's a busy man...
Short answer? No. Long Answer? Noooooooooooo. The reason why Eddie/Zato have been so esteemed for so many GGs isn't solely his unblockables. Yes they are one of the prime reasons that he's in a tier of his own in certain games, but it is also because even when you remove his unblockables, he is still a great character with reasonably good normals, good combo damage, amazing block and corner pressure, and easy access to lockdown into mixups. While it's too early to judge Elphelt completely, she looks to be the same way. Great normals, easy to get good combos off of many of said good normals and specials, really good damage off of relatively simple combos, good block and corner pressure, etc. The unblockables are just icing on an already delicious cake. Would they be S++ tier without unblockables? Surely not... but they would be nowhere near bottom tier. They both do share the issue of having poor defensive options, but that's a discussion for another day.

Also Millia doesn't have unblockables, don't know where you got that from.

Thanks for the answer.
In another topic... why a lot of people are telling that Milla has no personality? lol
 
Millia's kinda just... there. She played a role in bringing the Assassin's Guild down a peg by betraying Zato and getting him imprisoned (and ultimately killed), but since then she's kind of just been busy being strong independant hair-fighter, occasionally being harassed by the Guild/Venom for revenge or getting saved by Slayer. Don't know much about her personality, but in terms of story importance, there isn't much about her.
 
Do you think that Sol is a Gary Stu or is just Overpowered? (inside the lore, not the actual tier list)
 
Sol is explicitly a Gary Stu Self-Insert for Ishiwatari that everyone likes because he's from an era where red spiky no-fucks-given badasses were all the rage and the fanbase never left that time period
 
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OP8 said:
Like him or not, the guy has been involved in the scene for a pretty long time.

It's not a matter of liking the man or not and everything to do with it reads exactly like a person that really doesn't know what he's talking about. That's pretty meh level of play even by 2003 standards. If he had stopped playing GG seriously pre circa 2006, then naturally the reductionist formula for GG in the form of Xrd feels right at home for him.
 
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Just went through both the MikeZ and Sirlin articles. Both are really interesting reads and should be read together in my opinion. They are two very different sides on the same issues. I really think Shin is being a tad unfair. Sirlin is addressing people who may not know what he's talking about, but his points are clear and well articulated.

I don't have many issues with Xrd. Actually, I really rather like it, and I'll be playing it more than anything for at least a short while. That said, I agree with MikeZ that YRC are too good. That they play off of move start-up is no bueno since it really beefs up huge, punishable moves meaning so long as you have meter, your slowest, most punishing moves are some of your safest.

What I'd really like to see is shorter windows to get YRC. I'd like to see them small enough to only really be used "ahead" of time. For example, I'm going to deja vu Task C > YRC > 6HS. At that point all that is left is for me to execute it. I'd like to see the BRC windows open up a bit more so as to make a lot more things unsafe on whiff so you have a lot fewer "Oh fuck, that didn't hit... yrc!" moments.

In any case, it isn't a deal breaker for me and so if nothing is done about it, I'll still enjoy the game and continue to play it.
 
Axl's forward throw puts the opponent behind Axl

Axl's backward throw keeps the opponent in front of Axl

Guilty Gear please my brain is too small to process everything
 
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Ein Blitz said:
Axl's forward throw puts the opponent behind Axl

Axl's backward throw keeps the opponent in front of Axl

Guilty Gear please my brain is too small to process everything
It's the same with Millia, I-No's air throw and some other characters.
 
Coming from having played basically no GG at all to Xrd (but I messed around with GGAC in training mode for a while) I have the following complains/changes/suggestions whatever about the game

1. Please remove all of the 632146 inputs and replace them with half circles. If there's a problem with Megafist overlapping just make it a 360, that would actually be easier. In the interest of making the game more approachable to newcommers.
2. Please add GGPO netcode (yeah that's never going to happen)
3. Why the hell is just-frame Daro a thing? Isn't this game supposed to be trying to be more approachable?
4. Please make Potemkin 2S vacuum on hit-block again. He needs it so badly.
5. Please remove unblockables. They're not fun.
6. Please find a better input for Bedman's air dash thing. Its really finicky.
7. 1 frame untechable throws plus ~6? frames of throw protection seems really silly.


On a non-versus-mode note, please rework the boss-version of Ramathal. If she backs herself into the corner and starts spamming her beam-super she's basically unstoppable. If she decides to spam her beam super even outside the corner and you're playing Potemkin you should probably just give up, he can't actually deal with it as far as I can see. God help you if she's in Hellfire mode when she decides to start spamming supers.

Ok with that said, things I like about Xrd


1. The game is over all a lot of fun. Maybe its silly of me to say this as a new GG player but even though the game may feel like a step backwards to GGAC players I think that the core of the gameplay is still there. It sucks that a lot of the balance issues of #Reload got brought back for no real reason but I'm hoping that maybe GGXrd+R Extend or whatever will move in the direction of AC+R.
2. The visuals are super pretty. I'm kinda sad I didn't go for the PS4 version now.
3. the RC slow down is nice, it makes them much easier to use. Maybe YRC is way too good, I guess we'll see as tech develops in the future.
4. Having way more fun with Bedman than I thought I would.
 
I agree with just about everything. I double agree with 2 and 5. On that note, why does no one else really use GGPO?

I actually don't mind Bedman's air inputs. I still fuck them up, and it definitely takes some getting used to, but it is the first level up I felt in this game is getting those pretty damn consistently.

And I'm actually okay with the state of throws, though I don't love the OS with them. I think Sirlin said it best. You're either doing 6hs+k/s which is optimal or you're just doing 6hs which is never optimal. Other than that, throws aren't unbelievably strong like they are in SG and you are often having to spend 50 meter to get any real damage out of them. My Bedman meterless throw is a whopping 50ish damage (I think 56 if I 3hs?).
 
Spencer said:
I agree with just about everything. I double agree with 2 and 5. On that note, why does no one else really use GGPO?

Its probably partially because GGPO is associated with Arcade Board Emulators which are... well lets say they're a legal grey-area.

On the topic of throws it just feels really weird to me to have 1 frame throws but then add throw protection on top of it to weaken throws. It feels like you're adding an artificial limitation on top of a really strong tool to make it more balanced. Wouldn't it make more sense to just make throws startup slower but remove the throw protection?

It just seems to mostly make tic-throws a little more difficult while making throws really good in other situations, I don't see why you would do that.

The damage you get off of them depends on the character. Generally they only lead into good damage in the corner, which is nice because it offsets the fact that you can't crossup people in the corner (which I'm really glad is a thing they kept).
 
Jason said:
1. Please remove all of the 632146 inputs and replace them with half circles. If there's a problem with Megafist overlapping just make it a 360, that would actually be easier. In the interest of making the game more approachable to newcomers.
Overhead Kiss used to be a half circle and then they changed Don't Miss It! from a 22 input to 214 D:
 
GameFAQs Reacts to Mike Z's opinions of GGXrd!: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/730873-guilty-gear-xrd-sign-/70952891




just because he made a funny video where he spoke in a russian accent like eight years ago doesn't mean he isn't a terrible human being

>using numbers to represent stick inputs
I really, really wish this would stop.

Mike Z is a dumb neckbeard with an inflated ego, and his game is a ****ty wannabe clone of MvC2 with aggressively tumblresque character designs. So his opinion is worth about as much as dirt.

Anyone from dark prince's mvc2 posse shouldn't be taken seriously.

in order to make 720 inputs easier, mike Z put in this feature where the game prevents you from jumping if you do 2369 or 2147 inputs. This makes it so anyone can do standing 720 but it also makes doing a tiger knee impossible. He ruined a staple of fighting games

I didn't click the article simply because it was Mike Z.
 
No TK in SG? I do TK Thresher just fine.

In any case, Mike is a controversial figure in the industry as he has vocal opinions which is a thing many of us like about him. In either case, I'm sure he's used to both the hate and love that comes his way over it and hopefully loses very little sleep over the opinions of morons.

That said, Jason is right. The title was flame bait to begin with and deserves whatever moronic responses it gets.
 
Spencer said:
My Bedman meterless throw is a whopping 50ish damage (I think 56 if I 3hs?).
With Bedman, a midscreen throw shouldn't be about damage. You should be concentrating on getting them to block a Task A, so you can set up 886 j.KS pressure or get some DV seals out for added pressure. RC'ing a throw is usually a bad use of meter because of damage scaling...unless you're going for the kill.
3HS after a throw does negligible damage, allows them to tech, and limits your oki options.
 
OP8 said:
With Bedman, a midscreen throw shouldn't be about damage. You should be concentrating on getting them to block a Task A, so you can set up 886 j.KS pressure or get some DV seals out for added pressure. RC'ing a throw is usually a bad use of meter because of damage scaling...unless you're going for the kill.
3HS after a throw does negligible damage, allows them to tech, and limits your oki options.

Oh I know. I like Throw > Task A' or Throw > 3HS > Task A. I was just saying throws in the game don't do a lot of damage and with only a handful of exceptions, they can't be confirmed easily or without meter.

The reason I like Throw > 3HS > Task A is it funnels them. They are going to jump with very, very few exceptions.
 
HS and direction at point blank
 
Spencer said:
Oh I know. I like Throw > Task A' or Throw > 3HS > Task A. I was just saying throws in the game don't do a lot of damage and with only a handful of exceptions, they can't be confirmed easily or without meter.

The reason I like Throw > 3HS > Task A is it funnels them. They are going to jump with very, very few exceptions.
Another thing you can do off a midscreen throw is: dash forward, walk back, meaty f.S > JC > shenanigans.
I play Bedman on Hitbox, and his air dash is "easy mode." To do his "triangle jump" on stick is: 9,5,9,5,3. On Hitbox, it's: hold [2][6], double tap 8.
This works because of the way the Hitbox handles simultaneous 2 and 8 inputs.
 
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