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Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

I imagine, since the examples were masks, that they would just be their own separate sprites and be placed over the character's original sprite.

If something like that was even a thing that was being considered, of course.
 
Tank said:
are characters gona have palettes like SG characters? like how beowulf can have a mustache or a mask. I know its not their culture but i imagine razmi having a japanese noh mask and tungar with a kabuki mask. Ajna seems like she'd have one of those red and white fox masks. but again wrong culture maybe they'll get alt palettes relating to their culture.

I hope not!
 
How 3d effects heavy will the game be?

Skullgirls uses a lot of particle effects but it never goes "Full polygon", like making a 3d diamond for Bella's lvl 3 or explosions made via particle effects. In SG it's all hand drawn.

Will Indivisible use a similar approach or we can expect more specials/enemies/whatever with 3d models?
 
Mike_Z said:
Those examples are not palettes, they would change facial contours.
So no. :^P

The masks would be more like face paint was the idea I was going for. like how beo's beard is "painted" on.
 
Tank said:
The masks would be more like face paint was the idea I was going for. like how beo's beard is "painted" on.

Hope they don´t do that think, Indivisible deserves personal identity in the chars.
 
Wenzel said:
Hope they don´t do that think, Indivisible deserves personal identity in the chars.
I mean it doesn't have to be those examples. I just like having options. It'd be cool if Tungar had some southeast asian tattoos or something. Heck Ajna might look good with some tattoos too she's got the legs for it. They could also do some things that skullgirls hasn't even done.

Like if you have the tattoo alt on the tattoos could glow when ever you do a magic attack. or the tattoos could react to certain level areas. The level effect thing seems like it might be the coolest. the tattoos could casually glow on and off as you move through certain activation zones.
 
Tank said:
alt
So, the nice thing about this game is that we can design the characters to look like what we want them to, which we can't in a fighting game because you have to have alternate colors.
Is it wrong that I find it mildly sad that you already wish they looked different?

DukeMagus said:
How 3d effects heavy will the game be?
Skullgirls uses a lot of particle effects but it never goes "Full polygon", like making a 3d diamond for Bella's lvl 3 or explosions made via particle effects. In SG it's all hand drawn.
Will Indivisible use a similar approach or we can expect more specials/enemies/whatever with 3d models?
Er, probably no 3d stuff. We use 3d models to draw over for things that need to maintain their shape while they change orientation (Painwheel's wheel, etc) but that's it.
 
Palettes could open up some cool variations for enemies and status effects though. The "Rainbow Double" type effect would look pretty neat for something like a harder version of the Hungry Ghost.

And I think 3D might look okay in some situations, assuming it was the more practical option, and was mingled convincingly with 2D sections. Like say, a giant modular spider enemy with long silhouetted 3D legs that surrounded the arena, but were still matched to a 2D torso. The 3D legs could be there to add some depth, animating during some attacks, but the characters would mainly be interacting with the more expressive hand-drawn portion of the monster in the middle. Something like that might not look so bad.

'Course there are a lot of ways to do this stuff, and we know that whatever you guys make will look cool. It's just awesome that L0 is mainly focused on keeping that 2D artistry alive!
 
Mike_Z said:
So, the nice thing about this game is that we can design the characters to look like what we want them to, which we can't in a fighting game because you have to have alternate colors.
Is it wrong that I find it mildly sad that you already wish they looked different?

(Wish I was saying this aloud and not typing. Typing it is going to make me sound like a know it all jerk. But i assure you this is a respectful conversation. with that out of the way.)

yes and no to your question.

What's wrong with wanting them to be able to change clothes/tattoo's or what ever? If anything that'd make people like them more I'd think. Usually when I play an rpg customization is part of the adventure whether it be weapons or clothes. Clothes are usually more fun.The characters clothes/skin changed the character didn't. unless the characters skin/clothes are part of the story the characters outward appearance can change a little and not hurt anything story or gameplay related. In this instance the only thing that is affected is the players experience and the amount of work you would have to do. Besides It's not like they'd ware the same thing everyday...Razmi might she seems like that type of character.

How does designing around alternate colors limit fighting game character designs?
From what i understand you have to account for every color anyway so I would think it's not a technical issue. Are NDV characters being colored differently than SG characters? (yeah NDV doesn't feel like a natural nick name)

It's not like I don't like the way they look and I'm not trying to undermine the hard work you guys already put into this game. I just want to see how far things can be pushed with their designs and game functions. L0 is always going to have cool well designed characters but that doesn't mean they can't be pushed further.
 
Tank said:
Usually when I play an rpg customization is part of the adventure whether it be weapons or clothes.
Well now, lemme see...which RPGs I love let me change how the character looks? (Aside from changing when buying new armor, and that's only more recent games.)
Chrono Trigger lets you change names, but that's it.
Valkyrie Profile doesn't let you change anything, even names.
Secret of Mana? Any of the Wild ARMs games? Alundra? FF4-5-6-7-8? Star Ocean 2? Odin Sphere? Radiata Stories? Legend of Legaia? Ocarina of Time? Grandia? Lunar? Ys? Phantasy Star?
(Any of the Metroids?)
Hmmm.........nope.

MMORPG, sure, you have to differentiate yourself from the thousands of other dark elves. Regular ol' RPG? Can't say I see it as a "central thing", myself.

To be clear: I'm in favor of, and HAPPY about, doing palette variations for enemies and for player characters with different gear. I am much less concerned about doing variations of player characters for the heck of it.

Tank said:
and the amount of work you would have to do.
This is also non-trivial, and not something that can be glossed over with tiny text. >:^|

Tank said:
It's not like I don't like the way they look
Then you'd be happy to play as them without being able to change that, wouldn't you?

Tank said:
L0 is always going to have cool well designed characters but that doesn't mean they can't be pushed further.
Don't push ME much further. :^)
What if we don't like masks? Or we only offer customization options you hate? :^P
 
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tbh, most RPGs...well not modern ones, don't allow you to alter your character's appearance. There may be the occasional easter egg, like the alternate costumes in DQ8 which required specific armor sets, or your weapons may change, but character appearances don't really need to change. If they do anything, I see it mostly like what Disgaea does, a color shop you can pay in-game cash to get alternate color swaps from a very limited supply, and even then, most of those are still very very close the original color scheme.

Even then, does it matter much? L0's designs and characters are unique enough that they don't need alternate palettes to really work. I'd rather have them static colors that look awesome and super appealing than everyone debating what color is a reference to what other thing and nobody ever using the original colors. Kinda takes a bit away from the original design and intentions, doncha think?
 
Palettes are a thing for a fighting game in which sometimes you want to fight with a different color, but I really can't see them in an RPG. Really.

Talking about gear, then stuff like weapons and such could change their appearence depending on what you have equipped but I don't even know what L0 has in mind, and seeing how they are animating Tungar my guess is that maybe we won't see the weapons changing much. Plus Ajna seems not to use any in combat.

I mean, the only option would be to make a base for the weapon with little detail and then modify it with different details and shape to make it a different weapon for all its animations. FRAME. BY. FRAME.
Which is no doubt painful and expensive and scary.

I don't call the shots here so it's better if people take none of this stuff as "possible".
Also I don't bother checking 36 pages of thread to see if this is old discussion.

So, @Mike_Z

Are we going to see some change in appearence for characters with different weapons or heck no?
Actually, are we going to see different gear in the game? I'm sure you talked about it but as I said 36 pages are a lot.
 
pppleeeassseee tell me you're going to plan gag weapons... I love gag weapons.. (they don't have to be visible.. just som'in to collect..)
 
Mike_Z said:
To be clear: I'm in favor of, and HAPPY about, doing palette variations for enemies and for player characters with different gear. I am much less concerned about doing variations of player characters for the heck of it.

oh ok i was thinking they would be just as is even with armor and what not. When games give stuff to equip and i don't see that stuff equipped it bugs me. I'm in a fantasy game why should i have to use my imagination when it comes to my gear. :-P

Mike_Z said:
This is also non-trivial, and not something that can be glossed over with tiny text. >:^|
The small text was ment to be a joke cause as long as the SG community has followed L0 we've seen how hard you work.

Mike_Z said:
Then you'd be happy to play as them without being able to change that, wouldn't you?
You like seeing a roof over your head doesn't mean you want to stare at the ceiling all day :^).
But really Not having alts wouldn't make the game unplayable or unenjoyable. Having it would add to the experience but it wouldn't be the core fun factor to the game. So yeah i guess i see why you wouldn't bother adding it. It'd proably be a DLC thing but we got the verdict on that already. I look forward to some gear though.

Mike_Z said:
Don't push ME much further. :^)
ok ok i see your capitals. I'll leave you alone for now. :)
 
Mike_Z said:
Well now, lemme see...which RPGs I love let me change how the character looks? (Aside from changing when buying new armor, and that's only more recent games.)
Chrono Trigger lets you change names, but that's it.
Valkyrie Profile doesn't let you change anything, even names.
Secret of Mana? Any of the Wild ARMs games? Alundra? FF4-5-6-7-8? Star Ocean 2? Odin Sphere? Radiata Stories? Legend of Legaia? Ocarina of Time? Grandia? Lunar? Ys? Phantasy Star?
(Any of the Metroids?)
Hmmm.........nope.
That reminds me - can you tell if you (Lab Zero, I mean) plan to add actual roleplaying to this game? Or will it be more of a storytelling experience?
 
ArgonBern said:
Also I don't bother checking 36 pages of thread to see if this is old discussion.
S'funny, I bother answering your questions... :^P

Weapons will probably not change for Incarnations, Ajna will change them and you'll see that. Gear will probably be mostly palette stuff.

Tank said:
oh ok i was thinking they would be just as is even with armor and what not. When games give stuff to equip and i don't see that stuff equipped it bugs me. I'm in a fantasy game why should i have to use my imagination when it comes to my gear. :-P
Because that's work the developer could otherwise have spent on making more relevant parts of the game. :^P
Like I said, palette stuff is easy, for gear.

Not-So-Saint said:
That reminds me - can you tell if you (Lab Zero, I mean) plan to add actual roleplaying to this game? Or will it be more of a storytelling experience?
Can you give an example of the difference? Is this about whether you get choices?
 
Personally, I think games like Pokemon, Dark/Demon Souls, Harvest Moon, etc etc where you ARE the protag benefit more from decent customization, Character focused stories, eh not to much.

Indivisble is going to be a story about someone specific, not about the androgyny of the player, so she needs a set design, as do her helpers so we can identify who they are. I haven't really racked my brain to much about designs but...

Ajna isn't as 'bulky' as the boys in the group but she does have a confident stance, giving her a more 'balanced' look and her more lean appearance does set her apart significantly from the others, so it's easy to see she's the protagonist, she's the one we should be looking at, our main girl.

I can't get to much from Zebei, but he does have a very sharp appearance, reflecting his preferred weapon and compared to Tungar, he's lean so it suggests he's a ranged fighter.

Razmi is a clear depiction of of a introverted, subdued and possibly easily annoyed character, her lantern specifically gives off an impression of intelligence, tying her into spellcasting.

Tungar on the other hand seems rather focused and clearly a strong man but his little hop in his art displays some kind of playfulness but that's what I get from just looking at them for 5 minutes.

(Actually, is it me or is Ajna the only one who would be up close and personal with the enemies? Another traditional Protag trait if you ask me, facing danger no matter what.)

So my two cents I guess? Turned more into rambling then anything.
 
Mike_Z said:
Can you give an example of the difference? Is this about whether you get choices?
Well, it's more about playstyle. In western RPGs you kinda supposed to do some thing but you can go around killing everybody except people you need for the quest and pillaging their bodies or be diplomatic or make alliances or become the guy who will do anything for money.
Looks like Ajna's supposed to have certain personality so you won't be able to do things uncharacteristical for her. Am I wrong on this assumption?
 
Killing literally everything you meet and looting their bodies for gold is hardly something specifically limited to Western RPGs.
 
Cellsai said:
Killing literally everything you meet and looting their bodies for gold is hardly something specifically limited to Western RPGs.

NPC killing is definitely marginalized in most of the mainstream, influential jrpg's of the past. Can't really think of many that let you do it at all.
 
Mike_Z said:
S'funny, I bother answering your questions... :^P
I know you do and I love that and respect you for it, just thought it would be good if we/someone makes a FAQ out of this thread and puts it in the OP, so people don't end up asking the same questions over and over and you don't end up repeating the same stuff over and over. Just concerned about sanity.

Also we're seriously putting in doubt the nature of RPGs now?
 
Mike_Z said:
If the question is, "Can we go around and slaughter all the NPCs?" the answer is probably no.
Mostly because that requires all NPCs to be able to be hurt and the animations that come with that, but secondarily because, is that really what people think choice in an RPG is?
Be glad that no one asked if you can marry and have sex with npcs...
 
Stupid question but how will towns and city's be implemented? Will the game be heavily focused on towns like hub worlds? Or will they just be setpieaces?

Will there just be one big town? Or multiple towns?

Sotherius said:
Be glad that no one asked if you can marry and have sex with npcs...

But Shopkeeper #27 is so handsome.
 
I just really wanna know how we'll be able to interact with the rest of the party. We don't have much information on how that'll work just yet, but I really like a lot of these characters just from their perceived personalities and appearances. Will we be able to interact and learn about each of our party members outside of battle?

Also, I believe it was mentioned, and shown in the progress vid, but will the different weapons Ajna has based on her party have an affect on the things she can do in battle? Or is that something you can't comment on? I think it'd be interesting if some of Ajna's own abilities and role is influenced by the party setup, but that also makes her heavily reliant on the party setup for determining her own setup, which might be a bit too limiting. I dunno, anything you guys can say about that just yet?
 
Mike_Z said:
If the question is, "Can we go around and slaughter all the NPCs?" the answer is probably no.
Mostly because that requires all NPCs to be able to be hurt and the animations that come with that, but secondarily because, is that really what people think choice in an RPG is?
Well, yeah, it's one choice. The choice of people with short attention spans. I think, in this case, though, it's not, "can I kill everyone," it's, "can I kill anyone?"

On a smaller scale, yeah, I've always judiciously used my blade for gain in western RPGs. Even my 1st playthrough, "neutral good warrior," always does a few morally questionable things, like stealing some awesome armor or killing a person that might not have done anything to me. Being able to do that certainly makes you feel invested in the world. By comparison, JRPG NPCs can often feel like inconsequential text boxes with faces.

I wouldn't really expect that kind of gameplay mechanic in a game like this, though, no more than I'd expect deep combat from Skyrim.
 
CONJECTURE AHEAD

But with further regards to player agency and the, "can I kill anyone?" question of freedom, you have to look at Mike's words on the subject over time, the things he's done in Skullgirls, and the games he likes.

I think Mike places higher importance on PLAYER agency, then CHARACTER agency. What I mean by this is, the choices a player has can be how you play the game, or what you make your character do inside the established rules.
  • In a sandbox/open-world, you have agency by having the ability to make branching choices and commit crimes, meaning your character doesn't have to play the game in the same way as someone elses. You can earn or steal, save or kill, across a wide variety of situations. You can learn your party member's backstories, and then romance them. You can kill everyone, if that's what you want to do. Your character has agency.
  • In the kinds of games Mike likes, you have agency because you can engage the rules and systems of the game on your own terms, creating beneficial (and game-breaking, at times) situations. You can play it on rails, you can break a sequence, you can tune the perfect attack combination for 9999 damage. You ability as a player to push the limits of imposed boundaries is what gives you player agency. The character is pre-written and on a set path, but the way the game plays, can vary widely from player to player.
Look at Skullgirls, and fighters in general. A set of systems and rules that you can utilize to wildly different effect, yet some people would still call them very narrow. Either you're the kind of person that says, "wow, infinite ways to hit my opponent, there's so much choice!" or you're the kind of person who says, "this looks pretty much the same every time, there's only one way to play... where are the powerups?"

I think the player agency in Indivisible is going to come from insane attack combinations, from unintended exploration and sequence breaking, and from crazy side challenges that almost seem to require breaking the math. Those are gonna your options, not being able to kill any NPC you want.
 
Magma442 said:
Stupid question but how will towns and city's be implemented? Will the game be heavily focused on towns like hub worlds? Or will they just be setpieaces?
Will there just be one big town? Or multiple towns?
Spelling aside, you skipped a question that forms the basis of your other questions: Will there be towns?
 
So either Merchants for gear or you only find equipment in the field.
Interesting.
 
TechPowah said:
Will there be towns?
:y
Super Milk Chan said:
So either Merchants for gear or you only find equipment in the field.
Interesting.
Were there towns or merchants in Super Metroid?

more conjecture

I can't remember where, but Mike already talked about how just buying the next tier of equipment is lame, if all it does is make some numbers go up. Based on that general stance, I'd expect upgrades or equipment to make sizable changes to how things work, which probably means less of them, and probably at significant times.

I think it'll be like... you find a new item that lets you traverse the world in a new way, and it also functions as a weapon in some way. So... maybe you find the grapple beam, and it lets Ajna attack with more range, somehow? So, you could tune your squad to have certain complimentary traits and attacks. So, in some situations, it would be good to have a single guy that could launch an enemy, and 3 other party members could pin cushion him with arrows or other ranged weapons. And in another, you can't launch, or need to attack from behind, so certain part members need certain equipment loadouts, for lack of a better term.
 
Maybe the game won't feature equipment and just have leveling and the ability to alter Ajna's moveset and stats via bonus points or some form of skill system. This would allow customization and empowerment of Ajna while also making the Incarnations important to supporting the play style you made for her.

Can't really say, as I'm just spewing conjecture as well XD
 
This is just my opinion but if there is going to be no towns or cities I feel that could leave the game kinda empty. I feel like a town if its well done can bring character, lore and life to a game. Also there were no towns in super Metroid because you were supposed to feel alone (you are on an alien planet).

To to rephrase will there be towns? No? Yes?
 
how about this:
Will there be any "town" areas or Shop NPCs lurking around the fields like in Dust: An Elysian Tail? While NPC shops in Dust are mostly just usable items like heals, all "weapon" gains was through stat points. Also Towns in Dust was mostly for quests.

It's kind of what I'm starting to think this game's shaping to be assimulare too..
 
*Clapping slowly*
Good job at ignoring literally 3/4 of my post, Skull Heart. Nicely done.
I'll reiterate then: roleplaying assumes that you are able to choose what role you will play, whether it'll be a character, who cares about people around h(im/er) and tries to make their lives better, or someone who's just set on fulfilling that holy mission and treats everything else as insignificant, or maybe your character is selfish and will ever do something only if it's profitable in some way. Like, some players will accept an offer to get money via slavetrading while others will try and stop the scheme.
Other characters and factions can support such things too. Maybe some organisations won't talk to slavetrader while other actively searchs for one. Obviously for all those things to take place game should support such things both mechanically and narratively. Which it probably won't. Hence was my question: will we have any degree of it or will it be certain story unfolding before us?
 
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