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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

Bye mike
 
I think that if PW had better air normals she would reign supreme is the sky.
 
But its priority is suspect in close encounters

It's almost like a bunch of posts have been made saying how you shouldn't use this up close or something and that you still have fast jump normals that confirm just as easily to rely on when in close air-to-air situations.
 
Dime_X for worst poster in Pdubs subforum.

I like to argue, so here we go!

I dont want to argue with YOU about it either. Like i said, i use other characters, their air to airs are better. Then you come with "u gota use it smart" ok dude. Having to use shit smart implies that it lacks certain things that make it good... Like... Priority... In many of it's encounters. Bottom line is when i use parasoul j.lp to beat stuff it does.. It almost never loses... In fact ive never had it lose in a pure air to air fashion i dont think. Same with peacock j.hp, same with filia iad j.hp, close with double j.hp etc etc etc.

Priority isn't actually a thing in fighting games. It's an abstraction that players who don't understand the underlying mechanics of the game use.

What's probably happening in your air-air situations there is that you're using fast normals, with big hitboxes and small hurtboxes. That's why all the situations you listed are ones where you win in.


But i was intrigued by your statement so i decided to watch a couple of your games... Saw very little use of j.mp at all. So its this high priority attack that isnt "high priority" enough to actually use much?

jMP is a really important normal for PW. It keeps her opponents honest at neutral. It's great for controlling space, and punishing bad assist calls. It's also wonderful for initiating pressure and starting an assist bait. Also if you hit them it's a free combo.


I think we are getting our terminology confused. priority means a moves ability to beat other moves.

It has little to do with whether the move is good outside of that definition.

See what I said above with regards to priority. It's not actually a thing!

You are right, j.mp... Is.. The juice. But its priority is suspect in close encounters and the move has to be setup. Which is, like, what i said. Bad upclose so dont use upclose. But that leaves us with other bad air to air moves. Painwheel doesnt have good upclose air to air moves.

Yes, the move has some start up. If it didn't it would be completely busted.

Also this statement on up close aerial moves is not correct. jlp and jlk are both solid choices for up close air-to-air. If you are having trouble hitconfirming do jlp/lk -> jmk -> ground string or when higher up opt for jlp/lk -> jmk -> jhp/hk -> ground string.

range cr.lk... Yeah it was really good. Now though, it wont combo from max range anymore. It will only combo for around 85% range which limits its effectiveness

This is incorrect. Although at max range, you cannot confirm into reaper off of s.hp, you can do cr.lk -> cr.mk -> s.hp -> fly -> 6lk -> crmk -> s.hp -> reaper. Then do BnB.
 
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GO TO HELL said:
Dime_X for worst poster in Pdubs subforum.

I like to argue, so here we go!
You come off sounding like a dick, good job. Combined with your name and this being my first imrpession of you... welcome to the PW forums?

Priority isn't actually a thing in fighting games. It's an abstraction that players who don't understand the underlying mechanics of the game use.

What's probably happening in your air-air situations there is that you're using fast normals, with big hitboxes and small hurtboxes. That's why all the situations you listed are ones where you win in.
I've disagreed with Dime on what exactly priority should mean, but you just described his definition perfectly.... He just means a moves startup/hitboxes against another moves.
I tend to just use it to mean how good a moves hitbox to hurtbox ratio is in a situation.


jMP is a really important normal for PW. It keeps her opponents honest at neutral. It's great for controlling space, and punishing bad assist calls. It's also wonderful for initiating pressure and starting an assist bait. Also if you hit them it's a free combo.
Well, agreed here. It isn't the best normal in the game by any stretch, but it is the best Painwheel has and it works for what it is intended for.


See what I said above with regards to priority. It's not actually a thing!
I don't know what you label priority as... but it is a thing if you give it a meaning...

Yes, the move has some start up. If it didn't it would be completely busted.
I'm not so sure it would be completely busted, there are many situations where your spacing has to be absolutely perfect and it has to be used well in advance in all matchups. most characters can air to air it pretty easily, ie. Bella, Peacock, Valentine and Double to name a few.
Yes it is useful, but its shortcomings do make it hard to use as a main air to air tool, not that I think it should be improved, but a slight improvement would hardly make the move, or Painwheel, busted, I think.

Also this statement on up close aerial moves is not correct. jlp and jlk are both solid choices for up close air-to-air. If you are having trouble hitconfirming do jlp/lk -> jmk -> ground string or when higher up opt for jlp/lk -> jmk -> jhp/hk -> ground string.
They are ok, but on the slower side and their hitboxes are at awkward angles for air to air. The have better jump in hitboxes than air to air hitboxes.

This is incorrect. Although at max range, you cannot confirm into reaper off of s.hp, you can do cr.lk -> cr.mk -> s.hp -> fly -> 6lk -> crmk -> s.hp -> reaper. Then do BnB.
Actually YOU are incorrect. You have to omit the 2MK because it doesn't combo from max 2LK range and then you have to fly forward quite a substantial distance to get the 6LK. It is then often awkward to get a 2MK afterwards on some characters, so for consistency you will want to use a light there.

In fact it is actually character specific. I have never been able to get the 6LK on Cerebella in:
2LK 2HP xx 214K
[6] 6j.LK

from max range.

Probably other characters that it doesn't work on like that. I just know it doesn't on Cerebella because a great player over here uses her and I use her as a training dummy a lot.

So while you CAN convert from max range on most characters at least, you have to recognise very quickly the exact range you are at and use a different confirm. Otherwise 2MK will whiff, it happens to me enough to be noteworthy even if it isn't every game.
 
Tomo009 said:
You come off sounding like a dick, good job. Combined with your name and this being my first imrpession of you... welcome to the PW forums?

That's fine.


I've disagreed with Dime on what exactly priority should mean, but you just described his definition perfectly.... He just means a moves startup/hitboxes against another moves.
I tend to just use it to mean how good a moves hitbox to hurtbox ratio is in a situation.

It's not really a useful term though. It occludes what's actually happening in game, and causes all sorts of confusion.


I'm not so sure it would be completely busted, there are many situations where your spacing has to be absolutely perfect and it has to be used well in advance in all matchups. most characters can air to air it pretty easily, ie. Bella, Peacock, Valentine and Double to name a few.
Yes it is useful, but its shortcomings do make it hard to use as a main air to air tool, not that I think it should be improved, but a slight improvement would hardly make the move, or Painwheel, busted, I think.

This is happening because they're reacting to your jump probably. You don't have to space it perfectly at all. The thing is fucking massive. And the hitbox reaches out a good bit farther than the hurt box. And in this case, it's actually not your definition of priority in effect, but the moves startup time which is causing you problems. See what I mean now, about it being a bad term? Also, Double and Peacock definitely cannot AA it easily. Are you just throwing it out willy-nilly?

Also, I would contend that the idea of a "main air-to-air tool" is not necessary for a character. A suite of adequate air normals does the job just fine.

jMP is too big, and has too many uses to really be in need of buffs.


They are ok, but on the slower side and their hitboxes are at awkward angles for air to air. The have better jump in hitboxes than air to air hitboxes.

You shouldn't be having a problem with this unless your spacing is wacky. Although I will admit, they aren't ideal, they definitely do the job fine for me.

Actually YOU are incorrect. You have to omit the 2MK because it doesn't combo from max 2LK range and then you have to fly forward quite a substantial distance to get the 6LK. It is then often awkward to get a 2MK afterwards on some characters, so for consistency you will want to use a light there.

Oh well, what do you know. Messed that one up.


In fact it is actually character specific. I have never been able to get the 6LK on Cerebella in:
2LK 2HP xx 214K
[6] 6j.LK

from max range.

I'm able to hit the 6jLK from max range, it seems. It helps that I've practiced the dirty trick where you delay your jlk super late and just fly -> 6 -> jlk -> stHP. Try it! It's hilarious! It's definitely not a picnic though.

I'll need further testing to see if this is actually max range though.

Probably other characters that it doesn't work on like that. I just know it doesn't on Cerebella because a great player over here uses her and I use her as a training dummy a lot.

I have to use a lot of special stuff for Bella. My normal BnB doesn't work on her either. That's actually why I know aforementioned stupid trick. To get around undizzy scaling when comboing her.

So while you CAN convert from max range on most characters at least, you have to recognise very quickly the exact range you are at and use a different confirm. Otherwise 2MK will whiff, it happens to me enough to be noteworthy even if it isn't every game.

If this is a problem for you, what you really should be doing is just assume you are at max range, and get ready to do that combo on hit confirm. Given that confirm is easier when you're closer in, and you have more time to do it.
 
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GO TO HELL said:
It's not really a useful term though. It occludes what's actually happening in game, and causes all sorts of confusion.
It's just a shorthand.

This is happening because they're reacting to your jump probably. You don't have to space it perfectly at all. The thing is fucking massive. And the hitbox reaches out a good bit farther than the hurt box. And in this case, it's actually not your definition of priority in effect, but the moves startup time which is causing you problems. See what I mean now, about it being a bad term? Also, Double and Peacock definitely cannot AA it easily. Are you just throwing it out willy-nilly?

Also, I would contend that the idea of a "main air-to-air tool" is not necessary for a character. A suite of adequate air normals does the job just fine.

jMP is too big, and has too many uses to really be in need of buffs.
Well I didn't actually mention priority in that section and Peacock is really the only one that strictly needs to be reacting there. Yeah Painwheel's j.MP is big... but Bella, Valentine and Double all have normals that are equally as big in Double's case, bigger in Valentine's case and just at an angle that is hard to stuff with j.MP unless you are way above her in Bella's case.

If Painwheel has a suite of other air normals that might be ok haha. From range, PW has j.MP and j.HP, both of which take forever to come out. j.MK is a poor air to air because its hitbox-to-hurtbox ratio is pretty bad anywhere but in that weird spot around Painwheel's ankle, horizontally it loses even to lights, usually. Painwheel's lights lose to basically every other character's lights unless you are above them.... The problem is Painwheel's air normals, apart from j.MP only work from about a 45 degree or steeper angle below her, if the opponent is above or in front of Painwheel, she really struggles, making her easy to anti air.

Buer's are an option, but I don't take that risk too often.

I agreed that j.MP needs no buffs. I don't think it is too big though. If it is than Valentine's j.HK, Bella's j.MP and j.HP and Peacock's j.MP/j.HP etc must be absolutely ridiculous for their respective strength/startup.


You shouldn't be having a problem with this unless your spacing is wacky. Although I will admit, they aren't ideal, they definitely do the job fine for me.
Don't really get you on this one, the only correct spacing for these, is 45 degrees above your opponent, that's a pretty restrictive space when that's all you can hit in a short amount of time.

I'm able to hit the 6jLK from max range, it seems. It helps that I've practiced the dirty trick where you delay your jlk super late and just fly -> 6 -> jlk -> stHP. Try it! It's hilarious! It's definitely not a picnic though.

I'll need further testing to see if this is actually max range though.
I'm almost completely certain it isn't max range, also because you mentioned 5HP... which is actually 1 frame too slow to hit in that situation from any range. So I also think you are doing 3j.LK instead of 6j.LK which is absolutely necessary at that range.

Also believe it doesn't work on Squigly. Both Bella and Squigly have concave hitboxes that j.LK's 45 degree hitbox slots right into making it hit too late to combo.

I have to use a lot of special stuff for Bella. My normal BnB doesn't work on her either. That's actually why I know aforementioned stupid trick. To get around undizzy scaling when comboing her.
Bella has awkward hitboxes everywhere. She is difficult in many situations.

If this is a problem for you, what you really should be doing is just assume you are at max range, and get ready to do that combo on hit confirm. Given that confirm is easier when you're closer in, and you have more time to do it.
The combo is the same, it IS the confirm that has to be different. So you either make the awkward confirm your BnB or you have to be very situationally aware. Not that it is impossible, but when it isn't too common of an occurance, it is easy to let a 2MK slip and whiff in that situation.
 
Tomo009 said:
It's just a shorthand.

Well I didn't actually mention priority in that section and Peacock is really the only one that strictly needs to be reacting there. Yeah Painwheel's j.MP is big... but Bella, Valentine and Double all have normals that are equally as big in Double's case, bigger in Valentine's case and just at an angle that is hard to stuff with j.MP unless you are way above her in Bella's case.

If Painwheel has a suite of other air normals that might be ok haha. From range, PW has j.MP and j.HP, both of which take forever to come out. j.MK is a poor air to air because its hitbox-to-hurtbox ratio is pretty bad anywhere but in that weird spot around Painwheel's ankle, horizontally it loses even to lights, usually. Painwheel's lights lose to basically every other character's lights unless you are above them.... The problem is Painwheel's air normals, apart from j.MP only work from about a 45 degree or steeper angle below her, if the opponent is above or in front of Painwheel, she really struggles, making her easy to anti air.

Buer's are an option, but I don't take that risk too often.

I agreed that j.MP needs no buffs. I don't think it is too big though. If it is than Valentine's j.HK, Bella's j.MP and j.HP and Peacock's j.MP/j.HP etc must be absolutely ridiculous for their respective strength/startup.


I'm really not sure how you're jMP is getting beaten out by Peacock's air normals, unless you're being reckless. But in that case, that's fine, because Peacock is a zoning character, she's supposed to have fuckoff huge normals.

Also, none of those other characters can fly. Which is a huge deal.


Don't really get you on this one, the only correct spacing for these, is 45 degrees above your opponent, that's a pretty restrictive space when that's all you can hit in a short amount of time.


You're Painwheel. You're supposed to be above them in the air.

I'm almost completely certain it isn't max range, also because you mentioned 5HP... which is actually 1 frame too slow to hit in that situation from any range. So I also think you are doing 3j.LK instead of 6j.LK which is absolutely necessary at that range.

No, I'm definitely doing 6. The BnB I use always uses 6jlk in flight, because for some reason I find getting cr.mk after it trickier if I do 3jlk. And I seem to be able to combo cr.lk -> st.hp -> fly 6jlk -> cr.mk -> st.hp on Bella from max range. I've done it like six times in a row. I'll keep testing though.

You might not be flight cancelling early enough.



Also believe it doesn't work on Squigly. Both Bella and Squigly have concave hitboxes that j.LK's 45 degree hitbox slots right into making it hit too late to combo.

I'll try Squigly too. So far I don't seem to be having problems.


Bella has awkward hitboxes everywhere. She is difficult in many situations.

Bella's actually super easy for me to solve in my BnB. I just swap out a fly->3jlp for a fly -> 6jlp.


The combo is the same, it IS the confirm that has to be different. So you either make the awkward confirm your BnB or you have to be very situationally aware. Not that it is impossible, but when it isn't too common of an occurance, it is easy to let a 2MK slip and whiff in that situation.

Kudos on you for spacing cr.lk like that then, I guess?
 
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GO TO HELL said:
I'm really not sure how you're jMP is getting beaten out by Peacock's air normals, unless you're being reckless. But in that case, that's fine, because Peacock is a zoning character, she's supposed to have fuckoff huge normals.

Also, none of those other characters can fly. Which is a huge deal.





You're Painwheel. You're supposed to be above them in the air.
Peacock has fantastic air normals. Her j.MP is a fast, long range high priority poke and her j.HP has a really far back hurtbox. They are absolutely amazing air to airs that Painwheel wishes she could have. Painwheel can fly... but actually being in flight makes it even harder to use j.MP as an air to air option. At the point you basically have j.HP armour and j.HK as your options.

If everything was as easy as always be above them, Painwheel would be set.

No, I'm definitely doing 6. And I seem to be able to combo cr.lk -> st.hp -> fly 6jlk -> cr.mk -> st.hp on Bella from max range. I've done it like six times in a row. I'll keep testing though.

You might not be flight cancelling early enough.
In hitstop is as early as you can cancel it. Doing 6LK after a 5HP leaves you with 1 frame too little to combo 5HP even if you do it on the first available frame, 2MK works on some of the cast. You can't be at max range when testing on Bella/Squigs.

What you can do is 2LK 5HP xx 214HK > fly up forward a tiny bit > Buer Thresher
 
Tomo009 said:
Peacock has fantastic air normals. Her j.MP is a fast, long range high priority poke and her j.HP has a really far back hurtbox. They are absolutely amazing air to airs that Painwheel wishes she could have. Painwheel can fly... but actually being in flight makes it even harder to use j.MP as an air to air option. At the point you basically have j.HP armour and j.HK as your options.

If everything was as easy as always be above them, Painwheel would be set.

What do you mean by set?




In hitstop is as early as you can cancel it. Doing 6LK after a 5HP leaves you with 1 frame too little to combo 5HP even if you do it on the first available frame, 2MK works on some of the cast. You can't be at max range when testing on Bella/Squigs.

What you can do is 2LK 5HP xx 214HK > fly up forward a tiny bit > Buer Thresher

Here, I'll upload a video.
 
It's like christmas but with needles!

Addendum: j6lk -> st.HP only works out of reaper. The reaper pushes them back so you hit their foot and then you combo it. I can show you a video of that too!

Further addendum: I just noticed, I seem to have confused you about what combo I was discussing? I am sorry! I brought up 6jlk to demonstrate the principle behind hitconfirming on Bella at range without meter. Reaper -> 6jlk -> st.HP works on the very similar principle to max cr.lk -> st.hp -> fly [6]jlk -> cr.mk etc
 
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Buer leaves you low after flight, giving you 3 more frames afterwards.... enough for a 5HP.
 
Tomo009 said:
Buer leaves you low after flight, giving you 3 more frames afterwards.... enough for a 5HP.

Is that what's happening? Neat.

Edit: Nevermind, wrong again. Got it to work without reaper. It is indeed dependent on hitting them as low as possible though.
 
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GO TO HELL said:
Is that what's happening? Neat.

Edit: Nevermind, wrong again. Got it to work without reaper. It is indeed dependent on hitting them as low as possible though.
If you do 3j.LK, yes it works.... if you do 6j.LK, it doesn't. 2LK 2MK 5HP xx 214K 3j.LK > 5HP is the normal BnB I tend to use.

EDIT: You can turn the frame data on in training mode to see this for yourself.
 
Tomo009 said:
If you do 3j.LK, yes it works.... if you do 6j.LK, it doesn't. 2LK 2MK 5HP xx 214K 3j.LK > 5HP is the normal BnB I tend to use.

EDIT: You can turn the frame data on in training mode to see this for yourself.

I wasn't talking about BnBs then. I was talking about in general. You're not gonna have enough time to do st.HP fly -> 6jlk -> stHP in combo, obvs.

I recommend reading through these

Also for a standard BnB, that's silly. It's much less stable, and I don't think it actually does more damage than 6jlk -> cr.mk -> st.HP.
 
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Fly from Buer takes 10 frames (Counts as an air fly). The 10 frame fly travels less into the air. This changes how PW lands her aerials. Regular fly is 15 frames and travels higher.

Also, due to how Undizzy functions, your starter doesn't really matter anymore. You are all silly. ShadowEdit: At least as far as damage is concerned. Get that hit, and go in.
 
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Painwheel got an unfly in the beta... Why has no one said anything about this? This is the greatest thing to hit painwheel since fly cancel stingers. And it also keeps momentum so this is like a fly empty jump plus assist. Unfortunately this is only in install but this is exactly what painwheel needed imho. Now using install outside of combo will be worth it.
 
Mike_Z said:
Because console. And actually from tonight it'll be in both install and not. So it's back to "not being worth it" to install according to you. :^)


But when have you ever listened to me?

Cheeky cheeky
 
GO TO HELL said:
I wasn't talking about BnBs then. I was talking about in general. You're not gonna have enough time to do st.HP fly -> 6jlk -> stHP in combo, obvs.

I recommend reading through these

Also for a standard BnB, that's silly. It's much less stable, and I don't think it actually does more damage than 6jlk -> cr.mk -> st.HP.

What? But you are mentioning something that isn't possible to do... When I said BnB, I just meant the starter I default to in normal situations.

I don't see how it is less stable, the damage difference is basically nothing, I just do it to preserve normals and because I've used it for a while its just what works for me.

Great to see that you continued with your attitude...

Krackatoa said:
Fly from Buer takes 10 frames (Counts as an air fly). The 10 frame fly travels less into the air. This changes how PW lands her aerials. Regular fly is 15 frames and travels higher.

Also, due to how Undizzy functions, your starter doesn't really matter anymore. You are all silly. ShadowEdit: At least as far as damage is concerned. Get that hit, and go in.

The reason that starter was mentioned, was due to the awkward max 2LK range hitconfirms required. From absolute max range it straight up whiffs on Bella and Squigly. From just a touch further in and against the rest of the cast, it works but you have to have recognised this immediately. I guess just making 2LK 5HP your ground string in all situations would help with avoiding the muscle memory related issues.


__________________________________________________

Unfly out of install?

That might just be the greatest thing ever.
 
Unfly would be like, the coolest thing. Christmas comes early.
 
Unfly? Oh dear. I hope this doesn't make Painwheel too strong.

Also Hatred Install is the most beautiful thing ever and I will not hear a word against it.

What? But you are mentioning something that isn't possible to do... When I said BnB, I just meant the starter I default to in normal situations.

Wrong! I can upload a video, but basically you stand a good bit away from them, and then fly forward and jlk at max range. It's completely pointless, but it does work.

From just a touch further in and against the rest of the cast, it works but you have to have recognised this immediately

By just a touch you mean like, a pixel.
 
How do you guys use hatred install? I rarely ever use it aside from being a safe DHC, I havent use it in combos since the SDE days lol.

I'm also surprised at all the negativity about PW's air normals, I'm personally quite content with them :X j.HK is like my favorite normal ever.
If I'll ask for something I'd say a few frames shredded off j.MP's start-up would be neat.
Then again I always have Execellebella/LnL/Ceracopter/N.Pillar behind me so idk..
 
imo the most important thing about install is increased flight speed. Makes mixups scarier, makes getting around zoning easier, allows you to bait AA's better, and makes nail>fly pressure tons better.

The next best thing is better midscreen combos with ground bounce hk buer. The extra armor on normals is ok but I don't know how much of a difference it makes. Just as well install usually gets people on the defensive.
 
With unfly now, it is pretty good to use as a bait, just install > fly in > unfly

I don't often use install on point, I like getting value for my meter, so I usually use HI as a DHC in from my point character, being Bella or Big Band usually. Makes both of their supers safe and leads into big damage on hit that they couldn't get on their own.

If I use it on point, its usually more because I tried for something unsafe and I want to make it safe, rather than because I wanted to hatred install. But hatred install is good enough that I think it is completely worth it in a lot of situations, as long as you don't have characters in the back who are needing that meter.

As for what to do IN hatred install. The increased flight speed + increased j.HP armour means you can get in on Peaock and Parasoul pretty free. Nails charge up suuuuuuuper fast which is my favourite property. You can nails xx fly and be on top of them so fast it is kind of ridiculous. Much more so than outside in install, it is basically a free in, ignoring the possible PBGC reversal.

Just remember not to go too nuts in install, armour is still very breakable by multi-hit normals, throws can catch you often trying to j.HP and you are as susceptible to PBGC on offense as usual.
 
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I think painwheels install is RIDICULOUSLY good. however I do think its situationally good. I only really like it to make dhc safe and to combo. all of its neutral game applications are good, very good in fact, but the risk that I could get hit and combod or simply get turtled for 600 or so frames and have all my install time wear out and lose 2 meters is way to big in most circumstances for me to simply activate install as a way to get in, on point.

this of course changes if painwheel is the last character on the team and needing to make a comeback, at which point she needs a hail mary and raw install functions quite well for just that.


having an unfly in install though makes install much stronger because characters cant just see spacing and super her for free. which will put up the percentages of her getting in and making something positive happen, such as going into combo.

as it is right now (I mean without unfly... so as it "was" I guess), I don't think its worth it to just raw install for 2 meters, and that goes for both painwheel AND double. unless they are at anchor at which point just about any meter dump is worth it.

-edit
and though I didn't say this... I think that the way it is now is EXACTLY how it should be.
 
My knee jerk reaction to the new unfly is I initially don't like it. It falls straight down which is a nerf from the previous unfly cause the previous unfly had momentum and thusly could be used offensively to bait while this unfly falls straight down and isn't very offensive in nature at all. I understand that the previous unfly might have been to good especially the forward moving version when combined with assists. So some halfway suggestions that the pw forums can chime in on:

1. Keep unfly completely as it is, I (Dime_x) am stupid and current unfly is great.
2. Go back to momentum unfly but give it a lot less momentum... Think like j.hk momentum instead of j.mp momentum... Or maybe even slightly less than j.hk momentum... Just as long as there is SOME momentum.
3. Go back to previous momentum but make it so that assists can't be called in unfly and unfly can't be canceled into anything such as an attack or another fly, which it currently can, but for very small benefits.
4. Keep the current non installed unfly as it is, but give back installed unfly from the previous version that has momentum and can call assists and is generally quite nice.
5. Keep unfly as it is but allow it to drop much faster, making it like a fastfall of sorts. So no momentum but a faster fall.
6. Get rid of unfly totally, real pain girls don't unfly, they multiply.


I'm asking for other opinions that's why I put up those quick questions, feel free to suggest something different if you think of something different.

As it is right now the current no momentum unfly seems like it would be good when the opponent is in the corner or when painwheel does a blocked hitconfirm and knows the opponent wants to punish... And slightly to block long range punishes... But that's about it.

Also, it may just be me, but the current unfly just looks really weird with no momentum.
 
The momentum was removed because B+PP to block something didn't always work like you'd think it would, and I figured that'd solve it. It feels dumb though, yeah.
She's getting back half momentum, which is fine with me.
 
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konkrete said:
imo the most important thing about install is increased flight speed. Makes mixups scarier, makes getting around zoning easier, allows you to bait AA's better, and makes nail>fly pressure tons better.

The next best thing is better midscreen combos with ground bounce hk buer. The extra armor on normals is ok but I don't know how much of a difference it makes. Just as well install usually gets people on the defensive.

One of my favorite things about install is actually using it in blockstrings. If someone blocks a charged st.HP midscreen, and you install when it connects, they're in trouble.
 
New beta changes are promising. Painwheel damage levels have returned to "Reasonably High", down from "Hahaha. What are resets?"
 
Krackatoa said:
New beta changes are promising. Painwheel damage levels have returned to "Reasonably High", down from "Hahaha. What are resets?"

Yeah, I don't like it. I don't see why her damage needs nerfs when Bella has face roll damage and so does fortune... I wouldn't mind painwheels damage going down as long as the heaviest hitters also see a nerf in damage. As it is fortune gets 12k from a universal corner combo with cr.lk starter but it requires an assist and 2 supers. Still though, her neutral is comparable with painwheels. Meh I guess we will see how good the unfly is first before we say the damage nerf isn't warranted. Still wish it was in the form of less damage on buer instead of a flight from buer nerf.
 
Dime_x said:
Yeah, I don't like it. I don't see why her damage needs nerfs when Bella has face roll damage and so does fortune... I wouldn't mind painwheels damage going down as long as the heaviest hitters also see a nerf in damage. As it is fortune gets 12k from a universal corner combo with cr.lk starter but it requires an assist and 2 supers. Still though, her neutral is comparable with painwheels. Meh I guess we will see how good the unfly is first before we say the damage nerf isn't warranted. Still wish it was in the form of less damage on buer instead of a flight from buer nerf.

MF does that damage because of an IPS bug, if I'm not mistaken. Painwheel is two touching same ratio for one bar on most midscreen starters save for Throw. Right now, PW is losing 600 damage tops on her corner combos. Her midscreen carries are losing 200 damage. Her unburstable corner strings took a bigger hit, but if you walk over to the combo thread, you'll see that there's still options being explored.

CHs are still beastly, because the CH routes are completely unaffected.
 
If this is a side effect of the buffs, I'm all for it.

The buffs ARE pretty huge, I think.
 
@TrulyAmiracle

I wouldn't say it is negativity about her normals, but rather it is probably a touch of frustration.

Anyone who has played PW for 30 minutes knows how strong j.mp can be in a ton of situations and j.hp/hk can be in certain situations.

The problem is generally her lack of air priority and her game based around being in the air. An aggressive, good Parasoul can embody this problem solidly.

Also, due to the downward facing hitboxes of our air normals, we need to be above our opponent, but due to a fly ceiling double jumps and super jumps are actually able to get higher than us. I actually find air throw to be my best air-to-air though it can get a tad predictable.

This is again not to say that it isn't balanced, but again it is a super frustrating, yet core component to our gameplay.

Edited: repeated a sentence.
 
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Am I supposed to reset in the corner or do I just finish the combo?

Im having a hard time believing that resetting is a better option than the shitload of guaranteed damage you get from this bish.

What do you beautiful people do?
 
@Spencer
dont forget u have beurs, and assists..

idk, horizontally we have j.HP, j.Mk (kinda), air beurs and airthrow.


Thats why I run execelebella assist when I know the opponent likes to jump/be in the air alot.


@keninblack

Depends on what you want to do really, its gonna kill or want to damage that character finish the combo, otherwise reset into the kill...
A lot of times I reset with Pillar behind me to bait them mashing assist/hard tag then punish and finish the combo.
 
keninblack said:
Am I supposed to reset in the corner or do I just finish the combo?

Im having a hard time believing that resetting is a better option than the shitload of guaranteed damage you get from this bish.

What do you beautiful people do?

PW's midscreen corner carry(50% Stage, Universal), which sets up her super-nice-fun-time great corner resets on all characters, builds so much Undizzy that it takes away the choice for you. The plus side is her corner resets do absolutely monstrous damage pre-stage 5, so it's two-touch kill same ratio while riding Max Undizzy from any midscreen starter outside of Throw... From Throw it's only two-touch when a ratio above.
 
@TrulyAmiracle

Buer's can be super nice. I like s.hk buer for anti-air, but there is very little you can do out of it. In the air, they don't really solve the problem that is j.mp (in the cases where it is a problem).

It won't catch people above you (you drop the moment you throw one out), and the wind up is too slow to make it useful up close. I can't think of many situations where you could use one such that j.mp didn't work better. Not the least of which is that they are nigh impossible to combo out of anywhere but the corner. I like it as a corner combo damage tool though.

And yeah, there are assists and they do solve a ton of the PW annoyances, but let's face it, I love PW more than you team using bastards. Solo PW for life (or until Eliza comes out and is suitably monster-y enough for me)!
 
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