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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

If you're going to put "hit-confirm" and "Domo" in the same sentence, watch any of his sets for j.MP converted into j.MKs > combo. I think he just has good flight judgement/movement and eyes for confirms, bomber or not.

When I want to steal flight approaches and nifty resets, I watch Domo.
When I want to steal combos and nifty resets, I watch Krackatoa.
When I want to steal ground spacing/footsies and nifty resets, I watch NCV.

Goddamn PW has a lot of nifty resets.
 
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Dude... That's j.mp. We aren't talking about j.mp. We are talking about assists....

someone with grandma reactions could hitconfirm j.mp into j.mk... It's very very easy. You get 4 hits to see the confirm, dude. The hardest part is judging whether to do a 9j.mk or or 6jMk or 3j.lk confirm... But even that isn't prohibitively difficult and it changes based on timing and spacing and can be character specific.
 
I mean if hornet bomber hits you have the time it takes for every hit of bomber to connect to react. If you're flying and bomber hits and you can't convert you're either ass or playing like ass.
 
dekillsage said:
I mean if hornet bomber hits you have the time it takes for every hit of bomber to connect to react. If you're flying and bomber hits and you can't convert you're either ass or playing like ass.

Rather than hear you say it, I'd rather see you do it. None of the painwheels that are touted as amazing are converting it consistently from what I've seen... If I'm wrong pls point me to a video where said pw players are converting it consistently.


As I've said before, painwheel generally has to be moving forward just as the bombers first hit makes contact. That means she needs to be moving forward in flight, which she can't block during, right above her opponents head. Once this is seen a couple of times it's a very bad look for pw. Cause most people will just hit her in flight.

And as I said, it isn't impossible for her to do. It's just quite hard and her conversion rate at neutral is abysmal FOR TOP PLAYERS. Now compare that to ducks conversion rate for bomber and updo with Val.... It isn't even comparable.

But w/e I have folks with absolutely 0 evidence telling me that it's MY play when I see this in everyone elses play as well.

Ok.
 
dekillsage said:
Gonna play painwheel and convert off of every hb when I'm flying and trick people into thinking I'm a good painwheel brb
Make sure when you record the matches that it's against good people that can beat your main team, and that you aren't getting punished for TRYING to hitconfirm the bomber via flight. Anyone can try to hitconfirm, get lucky a few times, and get punished everytime they weren't lucky. The point of hitconfirming neutral bomber is it's supposed to be safe.

If it ain't "reasonably safe"... It aint a good hitconfirm.
 
fuck man I can't beat anyone with my main team
I got this though. Telling you that painwheels conversions off of HB are godlike
 
dekillsage said:
fuck man I can't beat anyone with my main team
I got this though. Telling you that painwheels conversions off of HB are godlike
Sweet man, worst case scenario I'm proven wrong, and learn something :) win/win as far as I'm concerned.
 
Also, though it's a bit late I guess... This is MK BOMBER.

That's what domo first mentioned in his post and it is what I've been talking about this whole time. lk bomber is great and an easy hitconfirm/conversion... But lacks the 3/4 poking range that mk bomber gives.


If one wants to say that its lk bomber only, then I fully concur with that version being a generally easy confirm for pw. As long as she isn't like, empty jumping backwards.
 
Triple post!!! Yeah baby.... Ahem:


So I'm thinking about a new painwheel thread or 3:

A tips and tricks thread (not to be confused with the current tricks and resets thread since that is like all resets and the actual tricks get lost in a confusion of reset stuff)

A "how do we take painwheel to the next level/git gud"? Thread.

Basically where we explain our theory fighter concepts / things we feel we need to improve upon/things that might actually make us better as players... Neutral game, decision making, hitconfirming long range assists (heh heh)

An armor thread and how to use it, what matchups to use it against, how to baitout obvious armor beating tactics such as filia lk airball spam, what attacks armor works well against etc etc. though there is a
Ready an armor thread... The maker doesn't seem to post much here and it's my thoughts that any thread that will receive lots of traffic be started by someone who is a regular.

The reason for these threads being a way for us to give each other specific advice that doesn't get lost in the confusion.


For instance:

Did anyone here know that pw can convert an air lk buer midscreen with squigly sing?

Does anyone know about painwheels fullscreen corner no meter carry into really nice corner okizemi stinger plus assist pressure... Where the opponent will always have to deal with an assist, and a stinger and not have undizzy protecting them?
Did people know that painwheels fully charged st.hp would go through Bella diamond dynamo? I didn't, till I saw icky do it on video. This would be good info to write down in an armor thread or tips thread. I've already used it to go through Bellas dynamo in match, now that I know about it.

There are lots of little things that we can start informing each other of, which we already do... But the problem is that much of that stuff is buried in the wrong threads and is of little use to anyone since no one looking for the info will actually find it.
 
Dime_x said:
Did people know that painwheels fully charged st.hp would go through Bella diamond dynamo? I didn't, till I saw icky do it on video. This would be good info to write down in an armor thread or tips thread. I've already used it to go through Bellas dynamo in match, now that I know about it.
Also you can use it to go through your own Peacock's super-bomb in one combo. I seen it on video somewhere in the Steam community.
 
Dime_x said:
Does anyone know about painwheels fullscreen corner no meter carry into really nice corner okizemi stinger plus assist pressure... Where the opponent will always have to deal with an assist, and a stinger and not have undizzy protecting them?

Painwheel doesn't need Undizzy. If you can land a hit with their back to the corner, you can land cr.LK,cr.MK,cr.HP xx HK.Buer xx Fly > 9j.MK xx LK.Buer xx Fly > 9j.LK,j.HP(4) xx LK.Buer OTG Deathcrawl for hobillions.
 
You can also use armor to get an extra punish on a whiffed fortune level 3, to get around PS sniper (always reactable if you're in the air with j.hp), and while not reliable and can be a guess, if you charge in their face and they react with super, you can eat one hit of it an react with your own, getting around the hitstop.
 
konkrete said:
You can also use armor to get an extra punish on a whiffed fortune level 3, to get around PS sniper (always reactable if you're in the air with j.hp), and while not reliable and can be a guess, if you charge in their face and they react with super, you can eat one hit of it an react with your own, getting around the hitstop.

The problem is some of the more potent option-selects are ruined by the fact that charged Air.j.HP triggers up+back's block cancel, otherwise you'd be able to do all kinds of nasty shit with an assist.

Still works well with low assist, but the option selects become a little bit more limited in what they can outright stuff.
 
Dime_x said:
Did people know that painwheels fully charged st.hp would go through Bella diamond dynamo? I didn't, till I saw icky do it on video. This would be good info to write down in an armor thread or tips thread. I've already used it to go through Bellas dynamo in match, now that I know about it.

Once I find a Bella is mashing, I do my normal starter but charge hp.

c.lk > c.mk > charged hp works nicely every time.
 
View619 said:
Problem with that is, you have to guess between Dynamo and Ultimate Showstopper.

Truth, but since I'm in the air a lot, I really don't see much mashed ultimate show stopper, but the point is well taken. I hate eating one of those... the damage!
 
Spencer said:
Truth, but since I'm in the air a lot, I really don't see much mashed ultimate show stopper, but the point is well taken. I hate eating one of those... the damage!

Charge j.hp instead of s.hp? If you guess right, you get Buer Thresher into a combo. Better than putting yourself at risk on the ground.
 
View619 said:
Charge j.hp instead of s.hp? If you guess right, you get Buer Thresher into a combo. Better than putting yourself at risk on the ground.


Funnily enough, painwheel has a SUPER SECRET reset option select against Bella on the ground that beats both mashed dynamo, and showstopper.

Heh
 
Spencer said:
Anyone got some Doublecock advice?

Projectile spam + hp butt wrecks me.

Tag Double Butt with a light normal every chance you get. It gets an extended cooldown if it takes damage. That's your time to go in, but if your approach is read, you're not going anywhere.

Make sure to stay erratic and mix your approach between

Charged j.HP xx Fly > Advance > Charged j.HP
Charged j.HP xx Fly > Harass Peacock with slightly non-threatening jumping normals.
Dash+Superjump forward and block.
Charged j.HP xx Fly > Whiff 3.j.LK (Have to do this to avoid George + Item Drop)

Watch for Item Drop. If it's falling, you don't have the armor to absorb it and one other Peacock Fun-time Projectile (Including Butt, which will usually clip you with one hitbox if Peacock doesn't jump). The exception is if you have Install: You can absorb two things. Plan around this. It's Butt and Item Drop or Item Drop and HK.George or Butt and George. If they're holding a bad item call, your options open up.

Once Peacock has her back to the corner, don't let her out. This means making sure the opponent doesn't read the fact that you're going to land on LK.George (This is why mixing up your approach is key). The same goes for Butt. If she sees that you'll be in blockstun in the near future, she'll take the chance to port away. I would say something like Armor through George and auto-correct Buer, but generally, good Peacocks are going to wait until you're airborn and falling on projectiles.

Don't get airthrown. This is kind of it's own guess on Peacock's part, provided you're not hanging around in the same place on screen. Peacocks will usually do it on reaction to you leaving the ground. If you're too predictable with j.HP charge, you'll get nabbed. Intercept with j.LP,j.LK,j.MK, or if they're calling out assist as well, try to intercept with psychic Buer Reaper or confirm straight into Buer Thresher (If you land a hit after Bomber comes out).
 
Random tidbit with pw/ps.

So s.hk (3) fly+call pillar gives a nifty crossunder reset, but you can also do fwd+normal to land but still xup. It makes it a lot more ambiguous (and safer) and you can go for same side if you do downfwd+normal if they get smart.
 
So, I could be wrong but it looks like PW's charging state counts as an attack, so the opponent can't up-back during it. This has been pretty annoying when I try to meet her in the air at times, but I'm wondering if we can use this on the ground in some way? Charge + grab assist, charge + low assist? Absorb reversals with the armour and retaliate, get a hit or pressure?
 
View619 said:
So, I could be wrong but it looks like PW's charging state counts as an attack, so the opponent can't up-back during it. This has been pretty annoying when I try to meet her in the air at times, but I'm wondering if we can use this on the ground in some way? Charge + grab assist, charge + low assist? Absorb reversals with the armour and retaliate, get a hit or pressure?

During the block cancel, you're unthrowable. It stops assist grab setups from being too good.

Charge + Low still works, though. It makes for a great series of option-selects versus Up+Back/Mashing.

The problem is working the low assist into a team that already has Painwheel on it.
 
Krackatoa said:
During the block cancel, you're unthrowable. It stops assist grab setups from being too good.

Charge + Low still works, though. It makes for a great series of option-selects versus Up+Back/Mashing.

The problem is working the low assist into a team that already has Painwheel on it.

Yeah, the only low I can see really working for that is Filia c.mk, which could also work as a good AC for PW under pressure. But, Up-Do.
 
View619 said:
Yeah, the only low I can see really working for that is Filia c.mk, which could also work as a good AC for PW under pressure. But, Up-Do.

The thing I don't like about Filia cr.MK is that the scaling is bad, and this reset is usually going to be used after Undizzy has accumulated. It limits it's effectiveness. I really only see PW+Low Assist on a 3 person team, and then you've got serious damage output issues on the reset itself (Unless you're sitting on a bunch of meter, which you won't be, because you have three characters left because PW is usually point [your DP better be anchor, or your team order is outta whack]).

That block of text makes sense, I think. It's why I don't run lows, and stick to basic resets with PW/Double Damage City.
 
Yeah, it seems like more trouble than it's worth when you could be running better assists (not necessarily DP, just better assists in general). I guess if you have Bella and don't want copter, or Double slide with a dp on anchor or something.
 
So ive been running team pali aka (jugg)ernaut parasoul/painwheel/double


This team is rather awesome. Its got reversals galore and not only that, its got reversal into safe dhc no matter what the team order might be. Its also got cheesy high/low and gtfo assist with lk bomber and parasoul. And its got mash airsuper on incoming, into cats... As well as so much more... So im really liking the team. I have 2 problems though:

People are upbacking against lk bomber calls all day. This is becoming a big issue cause the team is heavily loaded to deal with people coming at it... But not people that play defensively. Its kinda hard to approach with parasoul against people that are zoning her dash jump range. So i have to inch my way in... Which presents various problems.


But thats parasoul. With painwheel though I'm finding the same problem. Namely that its hard to pressure the opponent that is constantly hanging around the upper opposite corner and waiting for me to flail and wiff something so they can go in... For instance, my opponents have a remarkable ability to jump over flying j.mp.... Which would be fine... But i find that i have no real solution against this. Like basically id like to be able to pressure them while they are above the spacing that my j.mp will affect... But i cant cause all my moves are to slow or have no range. The only aerial moves that seem to hit that area are charged j.hp. And dash jump j.mp.. But both of these are slow and i end up missing with them a lot... Which gets me opened up... I dont know of an easy solution to this problem besides "actually trying" to play footsies against these updo assist and high priority air to air characters... Seems like a losing proposition.



The second problem is peacock in general... She seems to shit all over this team... And i really cant stand that cause i dont like counter matchups in general and think that all attempts to make games as non counter matchup dependent as possible should be done.

So my basic question is 3 fold:


How to take on these people that turtle up/back from half screen away and further?


How to take on peacock on this team... Ive recently switched parasoul on point to painwheel on point. Parasoul with bike assist... Double with mk butt... Still isnt going well... My assists get hit in their startup cause of bombs and i get hit out of flight and jump because of a combination of stupid plane and item drop.

Punishing her assist to cause lockout has been my most successful strategy so far... But more... Much more is needed.

I feel like if i can get past this peacock roadblock i could be in contention for being amongst the best players in au... Meaning like top 3... But right now im just to easily counterable by any good peacock... We dont have many really, but 1 is enough.


And finally, would it be worth it to develop a style that is based around stinger cancels? hp stingers are the only real counter to the far up/back turtles that ive been able to come up with.
 
View619 said:
I guess if you have Bella and don't want copter

The armor block thing is neat, but I would never in a million years put Bella and PW on the same team and not use H.LnL.
 
Dime_x said:
How to take on these people that turtle up/back from half screen away and further?

It's gonna be a case by case matchup thing, but on the whole I think nails and assist baits.

How to take on peacock on this team

I'm not some super duper great player, but I know from experience that PW vs. Peacock is utter horseshit. I've had much better luck with Double up front and just focusing on Luger > Car > Install as much as possible during neutral, dash + block and double jumping over/around projectiles to get in, and if I do somehow get in, never ever letting that peacock play again.

I don't know Parasoul vs. Peacock well enough (or at all) to say how good or bad that is, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't a better option than Double or Painwheel.

And finally, would it be worth it to develop a style that is based around stinger cancels? hp stingers are the only real counter to the far up/back turtles that ive been able to come up with.

Studying/Stealing konkrete's full screen stinger stuff has probably been the single best addition to my Painwheel's neutral. It's changed a lot of matchups for the better, and taken a lot of pressure off of Double to get my Painwheel in. With good MP/HP nails, I can forego MK Bomber as an approach tool in some matchups and use LK for lockdown + counter calls. And in the matchups where I still use MK Bomber, it's just an extra layer of icing on the cake.
 
Dime_x said:
How to take on these people that turtle up/back from half screen away and further?
Hp nails and fly to freedom, as already mentioned. Lots of hitstun so you can confirm off them from 1/2-2/3 screen away

How to take on peacock on this team... Ive recently switched parasoul on point to painwheel on point. Parasoul with bike assist... Double with mk butt... Still isnt going well... My assists get hit in their startup cause of bombs and i get hit out of flight and jump because of a combination of stupid plane and item drop.
PW on point is the way to go. Try using ground dashes more. When you fly do so just above the height of bang projectiles.

And finally, would it be worth it to develop a style that is based around stinger cancels? hp stingers are the only real counter to the far up/back turtles that ive been able to come up with.
Yes.
 
hlvn said:
The armor block thing is neat, but I would never in a million years put Bella and PW on the same team and not use H.LnL.

H. LnL as a defensive assist you mean? Yeah, I'm not liking it for defense. It's slow, gets eaten by multi-hit moves and loses to lows. If one of those things were false, I may try it. If you mean for neutral game in general, I feel like Stingers are enough.
 
@konkrete

Thanks for the reply. The peacock i play against uses cerecopter midscreen as a screen lock tool. If i fly over it i get conked by plane and item drop and then am in the same boat ive tried dashing in against peacock... But it seems hard... She covers the ground so well with regular bangs and lk bomb, is there a point in general where i should be looking to dash in?

I only have real trouble with 2 peacock players out here, but one doesnt play anymore. There are other peacocks... Well 1 peacock, and he's good... Just not on the level to really challenge me... Should i practice more against him instead of mr unbeatable peacock? Or just take the losses against super cock?




Ive been thinking about trying something like dash charge st.hp plus mk bomber assist..
The thinking being that ill dash into the bombs on block, separating myself from the assist and being a barrier for georges and single bangs and once the assist goes airborn it should make it through peacocks stuff cause of its angle... Do you think that would work?


The biggest problem to that is that its a fucking lp+mp+hk input and that is hard for me to do.


Maybe I'll try some other ways to execute it... Like f+assist macro,f

Hmmmmm.... Yeah that might work.
@hlvn

Thx for the advice. I think ill stick to painwheel to take on peacock... Cause as bad as the matchup is for painwheel... It feels worse for parasoul.
 
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