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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

Learning to convert j.no is the biggie.

You need to reliably be able to do j.mp > j.mk (x2) so you can convert off of any hit.

Watch the better PEa. If j.mp hits... full combo.

Also prepare to be frustrated. No weak ass shit as PW.
 
Only fooled around with the idea in training mode, so this isn't something that I've used much in any real match... but it seems decent enough to have me wondering why I haven't. It's a pretty simple thing, but does anyone use (non-flight canceled) j.MK to ground themselves quickly after their grounded opponent blocks j.MP? It seems pretty good. Can be used to land 1, 2, or 3 hits of j.MP, hit the ground using j.MK, and depending on how close you are you can try and quickly mix them up with a low, or trap them with c.MP and use a stinger canceled flight into j.lk. If you go for a fourth hit with j.MP and get pushblocked, you can ground yourself quickly and dash in to continue pressure. On hit, it can used to quickly reach the ground and start a ground chain starting with almost anything (including buers if you want) depending on how high up you were before you canceled into j.MK, and doing this seems to provide more damage than j.MP>fly>j.MK>groundchain, even if it isn't a completely huge difference.
 
You can do plenty of things with j.mp. You could do, as you said, the j.mk into pressure. You could also cancel to flight and do a mixup/crossup.
 
Rabspat said:
*Discovered fast falling*
'It seems pretty good.'
Yeah it's really good, it's called fast falling.
It's not just for Painwheel though it's for a lot of other characters.
It's essential to Doubles game right now, since it's the only way to give her some good mix up.
When you hit j.MP you get a lot of options because you can hit the ground and go for low, throw, fly xx JLK, or you can let the j.MP run to mess with their pushblock timing, or, FC from j.MP and go for a JLK etc etc.
Peacock can do fastfalls from her JLK into throw, low, or IAD JLK. Big Band does it too.

I personally use JHK to fastfall from JMP because it also works from JHP so it's always the same button.
JMP, JHK dash, throw is really nasty.
 
PW can go for really easy, but pretty telegraphed, resets off of launcher-> j.mp ( 3 hits ), j.mk fast fall. Against lights, you'll land on the opposite side for a low/throw or you also have enough time to sideswitch again before they land if you want, or cancel into fly while you're airborne and go for a high reset. Against heavies I'm fairly certain the j.mk will connect though.
 
Rabspat said:
If you go for a fourth hit with j.MP and get pushblocked, you can ground yourself quickly and dash in to continue pressure.

I was more than likely the first person abusing this in sg and wrote about it around evo 2013. (But i wrote about it in the double thread) when i discovered it for double i also, of course, discovered it for pw.
However i of course wasnt the first person to use fastfalls. They were being used for years in other fighting games, it just took awhile for the sg mainstream to apply them. I was the only person really using it at evo 2013 and many players commented on the tactic when i showed it to them.

Its really really good but doubles is more applicable than painwheels. Doubles has much more chance of being blocked by a grounded opponent. I find that the painwheel version is most applicable against peacock since peacock will many times be on the ground spamming bombs as painwheel approaches her.


And yep, as skarmand mentioned, it works with basically any jumping multihit move that isnt a j.hk, such as BB jlk, and peacock jlk... It even works with things like filia j.mk
The reason why i quoted your post is because that in particular is new to me. If thats true, and I'll be going into t-mode to try it out, that brings a whole new level of mindgames to pw :) so thanks for the discovery :)
 
You can also go from a blocked j.mp > charged j.hp if you read an assist. I'm batting about 0 with it though. My old man reflexes...
 
Dime_x said:
The reason why i quoted your post is because that in particular is new to me. If thats true, and I'll be going into t-mode to try it out, that brings a whole new level of mindgames to pw :) so thanks for the discovery :)
How did that work out for you? Genuinely curious what more experienced Painwheel players have to say about it. If you know you will be pushblocked, it seems like one of Painwheel's quicker options to get back in, and seems to work especially well with the PP dash shortcut.

After a little bit more pushblocking experimentation, I noticed that if you get pushed back after c.mp (and probably all of her other moves if you react fast enough), you can still reach with mk.buer and c.hk. Pretty situational, considering they'll need to catch them trying to jump or something in order to catch them with either, and it's hard to do much off of either unless you're in the corner... but it's interesting. If they're keeping you out, a knock down could at least give you a little bit of an edge.
 
I havent had a chance to try it out yet... Im on that destiny right now... Hehe. But i will be checking it out as soon as i get a chance :)
 
@Rabspat

Unfortunately i dont think your hypothesis in that regard was correct. Painwheel seems to get pushed away the same amount even when fast falling or not fast falling.
 
I was just trying to imply was that you can reach the ground quicker so you can perform a ground dash. She does get pushed away just as far, but Painwheel's dash has pretty decent range.
 
since you mention it, I'll just say that I feel like PW's dash is somewhat underrated. You can cover some serious range by doing dash->c.lk during neutral
 
theDMAGS said:
since you mention it, I'll just say that I feel like PW's dash is somewhat underrated.

It fucks up a lot of peeps. Run up low is godlike cuz many people (me included) autoblock high against painwheel.
 
It can be really effective at the start of the round too, if you get a good read on your opponent and feel confident they're going to just hang back and call assist or something else defensive like that, dash->low/throw can beat most of those options. Once they catch on, it can be avoided pretty easily though
 
@theDMAGS

It is underrated for sure, but I think that is largely a function of us not using it and relatedly, our enemies not expecting it. It is not one of the longer dashes (it is actually one of the shortest), and it starts up slow. [source]

That said, if you aren't using it...well... start using it. You do have to be careful though. You'll eat more hits than you think just randomly dashing around. As in everything PW has, use it very intentionally. Our normals are slow so you'll lose to just about any button pressed at the same time as yours.

Also, dash > mk.buer is massive range.
 
I dont think its underrated. The startup is comparable to flight startup. Once it gets going its ok, but before that it is terrible. And painwheel having either super stubby normals (st.lp) or super slow normals (cr.lk) doesnt help.

Can it be used more than what it is? Sure. Will it make your game better to use it more than what it gets used as... Probably not. I know because i use pw dash a decent amount and if i stopped using it... It would matter little. I mostly use her dash as a way to dash jump or as a bait by doing forward dash> call assist> backdash.
As far as using dash after the 4th hit fastfall... I dont think its any better or worse than anything else. Its just a neutral game mixup/weaker pressure option. Can it be used? Certainly. Can it be made powerful in its use? I have my doubts.


But I'm open to being proven wrong :)
 
Dime_x said:
I dont think its underrated. The startup is comparable to flight startup. Once it gets going its ok, but before that it is terrible. And painwheel having either super stubby normals (st.lp) or super slow normals (cr.lk) doesnt help.
qft

off the top of my head I can't think of a dash worse than pw's, but it's still a dash.
 
Keep in mind that you can always just dash > block.

Dime_x said:
As far as using dash after the 4th hit fastfall... I dont think its any better or worse than anything else. Its just a neutral game mixup/weaker pressure option. Can it be used? Certainly. Can it be made powerful in its use? I have my doubts.


But I'm open to being proven wrong :)
What else would you do after the push-block?
 
The dash in hit/throw does work sometimes, but just because no one expects PW to stay in the ground at round start.
But her dash is so bad that if any other character just hit a button you'll get smacked in the face. Even if you both dash at the same time you'll still lose.
 
bubbaking said:
Keep in mind that you can always just dash > block.


What else would you do after the push-block?


If i have no read? Go back to safe neutral and work my way in again or try to get them to jump into my beat extend assist. If i have the read, I'll dash airthrow or flight cancel into airthrow.

Generally speaking.
 
@Spencer - thanks for posting that info about everybody's dash/air dash properties, I've always wondered how they all stack up against eachother.

otherwise, yeah I totally agree with you guys, it's not a gamechanger or anything like that so I hope you didn't think I was trying to say that ( hence why I said once your opponent catches on, they can avoid it ((or beat it)) rather easily ) I just feel like some people overlook it a bit
 
I mean yeah, we know that PW's dash is bad, but (as far as i can tell) the idea is that a dash from PW goes against almost everything someone expects from a PW, so it can work if used sparingly and wisely.
 
Daemyx said:
That is basically the definition of a gimmick.

Guess you're right there. Were you trying to argue that PW's dash was a gimmick? I didn't catch that. Yeah, I guess.
 
Daemyx said:
The dash in hit/throw does work sometimes, but just because no one expects PW to stay in the ground at round start.
But her dash is so bad that if any other character just hit a button you'll get smacked in the face. Even if you both dash at the same time you'll still lose.
I do understand what you mean, but dash > block and call assist could be a thing, I would think...
 
the tl;dr of my original post was basically "hey guys, I've been using PW's dash more and have been having pretty noticeable success with it, despite the negative remarks I typically read." This spawned a much deeper discussion than I had intended lol
 
Haha, fair enough.

I think the take away is that we shouldn't neglect any of her kit. Her dash does work. Hell, watch Elda, he dashes a ton.

It also probably reflects a more optimal way to play her. I spend most of my time flying which is actually not a great way to play PW. Most of her air normals become... less good because they cause PW to plummet to the ground meaning she loses range and priority on her moves.

By virtue of trying to dash around, you'll spend less time in the air which is probably a good thing in most situations (and a fucking hard habit to break).

I think my proclivity to fly is what makes some matches harder than they should be (namely Squigly and Parasoul).
 
I dash alot, it isnt that great. Good for general moving from halfscreen or further or for doing dash throws after fastfalls and stuff, but any closer than half screen during neutral is asking for trouble more often than not.


Also, yes, all of pws tools are "good" if you use them sparingly and in the right situation. Her stingers her dashes, her armor moves her unfly... But none are actually great. They are on the bottom end of good.


Great moves are things like parasouls dash, and parasouls dash j.lp and parasouls j.hp and painwheels j.mp.. As examples.
 
Dime_x said:
Also, yes, all of pws tools are "good" if you use them sparingly and in the right situation.

If I were to be teaching someone, this is PW in a nutshell. She is not the type of character that gets to mash jab, randomly throw out moves, spam projectiles, and on.

Even j.mp which at first seems to be perfectly safe is not the type of thing you want to be throwing out without knowing what potential repercussions are (no joke, you can literally be thrown out of it from half screen by Parasoul and Valentine).

We have no safe patterns like Peacock. We can't safely spam tears like Parasoul. We don't have a meterless reversal like half the cast. Our supers are niche and punishable. The burden of knowledge for a PW player is that you need to have almost zero wasted button presses.

A mashed jab, thinking you're safe behind your j.mp, or predictable dashes can cost you half your life bar very easily.
 
Look like pw/squigly sing/bb beat extend L is going to be my thing from now on :)
 
re:dash I've been saying it's good since forever but now that she has unfly it's less great. Still nice against pc/ps/fu that are using a lot of anti-air zoning/fireballs. It covers a lot of distance and shouldn't be tossed aside.
 
Spencer said:
We have no safe patterns like Peacock. We can't safely spam tears like Parasoul.

Depends on the match up for both characters. Like vs Parasoul, Cerebella can reflect tears, pbgc command grab/dynamo, jump over them??? I know if you mess up a tear shot vs Valentine specifically she'll jump and hit you for it for free.

Unless you meant the tear tosses, that's kinda different/safer huh
 
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I can't find this anywhere, so I'll ask in the PW general thread just to ease my curiosity...how come Pinion Dash was removed as a special and made assist-only? Was it too OP? Just too damaging? I wasn't around pre-Encore and haven't been able to find much info on it.

Feel free to link me somewhere if this answer already exists
 
theDMAGS said:
I can't find this anywhere, so I'll ask in the PW general thread just to ease my curiosity...how come Pinion Dash was removed as a special and made assist-only? Was it too OP? Just too damaging? I wasn't around pre-Encore and haven't been able to find much info on it.

Feel free to link me somewhere if this answer already exists
it added some dumb free damage, made you mess up crouch inputs sometimes and got it instead of a move (only had to be croucing plus pianoing of buttons to activate it, unlike the assist input), and I guess Mike decided she needed a level 3 like the rest of the cast. Secretly it was also good with doing it behind an assist to cover it for a free in as well
 
I thought it was removed because it completely screwed up inputs. I know I would input fly, 3j.LK, c.LK and I would sometimes get Pinion instead of my combo. Haven't messed that up since the change. Also, I think she's much better with her level 3. That catches people for not blocking from almost a half-screen away, dishes out a good deal of damage (especially if you hatred guard a lot), and you can still combo afterwards (which means potential resets). In some cases, it's also safe on block since you zoom all the way to the other side of the screen. Definitely not a change I regret.
 
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