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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Tomo009 said:
That's because you play Val/Fillia!

But really, you are playing the character with no real weakness, Val fights honestly, I guess but you have no bad matchups. The tiers in Skullgirls are definitely close, but there are some things that are kind of obvious, like Valentine being just a bit better than everyone else now that Fortune has been tamed a bit.
wut
wut no weaknesses wut
i dont wut

So like these extremely offensive characters with shitty neutral games, rough times to convert off of shit at high heights, and either long reaching and unsafe or short and stubby normals have no weakness?

Yep. Yep.

Maybe we're all getting a little out of hand with out exaggerated phrases such as "no real weaknesses" but jeez.

In case everyone forgot or something, please reread my signature.

Don't go in so hard with this man on matchups without actually testing things?

J.Mk? J.mk? Is that a typo? Not Roundhouse or Strong(with a hitbox that only hits downwards?) but J.mk?

I'm not saying PW wins this matchup or anything but jeez if you guys think Val just destroys her one v one, or if we're discussing assists, be fair and put similar assists on each team.
 
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I stand by that phrase. I still havent seen anyone thinking hella hard about resetting people. Its always low/throw/crossup of some variant with the occasional real 50/50 burst bait here and there if they are actually decent


Aka... Not thinking hella hard.


Moving on... J.mk, xx airdash j.mk, is against a flying painwheel trying to outspace you.


Yes, try it. Go now. Goodbye.
 
Dime_x said:
I stand by that phrase. I still havent seen anyone thinking hella hard about resetting people. Its always low/throw/crossup of some variant with the occasional real 50/50 burst bait here and there if they are actually decent


Aka... Not thinking hella hard.


Moving on... J.mk, xx airdash j.mk, is against a flying painwheel trying to outspace you.


Yes, try it. Go now. Goodbye.
It's okay, Prototype and I were doing that for the last 10 minutes.

Pw will always go higher than valentine when holding up because flight. She can't just DO IT because flight is capped, but as soon as the opponent goes up, PW can go higher. At best they'll be at the same height.

What does Val get from that? She's already airdashed?

If you still stand by that statement from a couple of months back, Jesus Christ man.

That's right, using capitals, I am summoning a spiritual power I don't even believe in to stop this madness.

I think you need to sit back and think about this matchup again.

How about for Val having to get to PW, she has to commit with an airdash, using her air action, meaning she cannot convert. PW on the other hand is the QUEEN of non commital.

Also, my signature is you not talking about the state of Skullgirls meta, if so, that would be more debatable. That post has "personally" in it, as in "your ideal skullgirls gameplay would be a game where I don't want to think hard about resetting my opponent".

Like, fuck defensive options and all that shit, no one wants to block or anything.
 
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iLoli said:
wut
wut no weaknesses wut
i dont wut

So like these extremely offensive characters with shitty neutral games, rough times to convert off of shit at high heights, and either long reaching and unsafe or short and stubby normals have no weakness?

Yep. Yep.

Maybe we're all getting a little out of hand with out exaggerated phrases such as "no real weaknesses" but jeez.

In case everyone forgot or something, please reread my signature.

Don't go in so hard with this man on matchups without actually testing things?

J.Mk? J.mk? Is that a typo? Not Roundhouse or Strong(with a hitbox that only hits downwards?) but J.mk?

I'm not saying PW wins this matchup or anything but jeez if you guys think Val just destroys her one v one, or if we're discussing assists, be fair and put similar assists on each team.
Shitty neutral game lol.

Val doesn't NEED to go in. She has the safer options, she can play reactive while still controlling the game due to throwing out j.HKs and dispensing assists. Valentine can protect her assists and convert off them significantly better/easier. The Painwheel player would need pretty fantastic assist calls to keep up with Valentine without losing any spacing.

Also

I'm not saying PW wins this matchup or anything but jeez if you guys think Val just destroys her one v one, or if we're discussing assists, be fair and put similar assists on each team.
I said:
It certainly isn't a hopeless matchup, but Painwheel doesn't like it
 
iLoli said:
So like these extremely offensive characters with shitty neutral games, rough times to convert off of shit at high heights, and either long reaching and unsafe or short and stubby normals have no weakness?
I'm not going to address the rest of your post; that's already being done... but you must actually be taking crazy pills if you think Val's normals are bad. Her jab isn't "short and stubby," it's disjointed and can chain 3x-- I asked Mike Z what it would take to give Filia a jab with a hitbox like that and he laughed at me until I closed the window. s.HK (besides being chainable, which already makes it psychologically safer due to its nature as a frametrap) leads to corner + untechable knockdown on hit and can be cancelled into shuriken (depends on spacing) or LK Bypass (legit actually safe) on block. A chainable c.LK? 2 safe specials to cancel into? Almost everything is disjointed? Good angles and the mobility to get those angles at will? This isn't even hyperbole; there's a reason that people have been claiming Eliza's amazing even when she was just "a shittier Valentine."
 
iLoli said:
It's okay, Prototype and I were doing that for the last 10 minutes.

Pw will always go higher than valentine when holding up because flight. She can't just DO IT because flight is capped, but as soon as the opponent goes up, PW can go higher. At best they'll be at the same height.

then use j.mk xx airdash j.hp plus updo (which i also already mentioned). you still make contact and still get an air to air conversion no matter how many actions youve used. also i dont know what distance you were doing that j.mk pattern from but it isnt to be used from fullscreen obviously. and i said DASH JUMP as well. also, conversion air to air isnt vals thing and i dont think you should be really worrying about air to air conversion. thats painwheels thing and one of the few things that she has that she is demonstrably better than most of the cast at.

if only it didnt come at the price of her overall priority and ground speed plus poke range.

if you want air to air conversion with val.... use an assist like updo... bam air to air conversions all day even post airdash
What does Val get from that? She's already airdashed?
she gets a confirm if she uses updo, and pressure if she doesnt

How about for Val having to get to PW, she has to commit with an airdash, using her air action, meaning she cannot convert. PW on the other hand is the QUEEN of non commital.

pw non commital? is this a joke? pw can be played uber defensively, but that isnt non commital. it just means that painwheel picks her times to commit. pw HAS TO COMMIT in order to get anything done. cause she cant confirm off her assist well. meaning that committing to j.mp or ground throw or airthrow are things she must do to try and win.

val is the queen of non commital because she can let her assists do the majority of her fighting while the only thing she "commits to" is... moving. (which IS a commitment, but a super low level commitment, like the lowest actually, and in fact, not moving would be a bigger commitment because you would just allow the opponent to close in for free were you not to move)

but ill bite:

what are painwheels non committal ways to do damage to you or even strategically place you in a bad position?

all i got is like dash empty jump plus assist... everything else requires buttons which means no blocking which means atleast a semi commitment.


so a question:

you guys have yet to name any actual tactics from painwheel as i recall, like no moves from painwheel at all. So... WHAT are these tactics that painwheel is using to outspace you and outprioritize you?
 
So not that I know much about anything, but what's this I hear about Val getting higher than Painwheel? Can't PW go higher the higher up her opponent gets? I mean, this isn't SDE so her flight isn't exactly slower than a jump anymore once it's been started. As far as assists go, does it really matter how often you can call assists as long as you call them according to your character's optimal play style? I'm pretty sure we've moved past using assists as our sole tool in playing footsies.

@Elda Taluda do you have any thoughts on this matchup?
 
Since its been a while already since their release

Squigly, Big Band, Fukua

Good? Bad? Why?
 
I think he meant "are these char good?", wasn't talking about a team
 
Yaya seems to like BB on point with Squigly behind him. Considering the confirms that become possible, I can see why.
 
He used to. He still might from time to time. But the things he did to mcpeanuts...I don't see why he would go back.
 
Dhoppler said:
I'm pretty sure we've moved past using assists as our sole tool in playing footsies.
If the Skullgirls community was actually good at the game, this might be the case.

We're not, though (there's a reason you see so many "this is the first FG I've gotten decent at!" posts around here, and it has NOTHING to do with the game itself and everything to do with the standards of the community), and it isn't the case.
 
Dhoppler said:
He used to. He still might from time to time. But the things he did to mcpeanuts...I don't see why he would go back.
He switched the order against me because Squigly loses to Peacock and Big Band doesn't. And also because dropkicks.
Erreip199 said:
Since its been a while already since their release

Squigly, Big Band, Fukua

Good? Bad? Why?
I think it's still too early to say on Fukua.

On Squigly and Big Band I don't feel confident saying I know the matchups for either of those characters just because I don't think I'm playing either of them at the highest possible level, and I don't know that anyone else is either. Squigly has a lot of really good tools like j.LK, j.HP, Draugen Punch xx Opera, Sing xx Opera, divekick pressure, stancels, level 2 Silver Chord fuck it throw it out there homie sometimes you just gotta shoot that J, etc. I don't know that there's any Squigly players who really make the most out of every single one of these tools (personally I have trouble remembering to use Draugen Punch, after asking Mike in person to buff it hehhhhh, also I don't use the stancels or divekicks well). I imagine her matchups probably change significantly if you make the best use out of all the stuff she has. Big Band's kind of hard to say too because I imagine parry changes a lot of his matchups if you can use it well (I am the worst at parrying).

Gun to my head, though, and I should emphasize I prefaced this with a whole paragraph saying I don't know what I'm talking about, but if I had to I would say their matchups go like this:

Squigly: bad matchups vs Filia, Peacock, and Big Band, good matchups against Bella and Painwheel, even against Parasoul, Fortune, Valentine, and Double

Big Band: bad matchups against Parasoul*, Fortune, and Valentine, good matchups against Filia, Painwheel, and Squigly, even matchups against Bella, Peacock, and Double.

*unless the Parasoul player is IsaVulpes, then it's a good matchup
 
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mcpeanuts said:
He switched the order against me because Squigly loses to Peacock and Big Band doesn't. And also because dropkicks.

I think it's still too early to say on Fukua.

On Squigly and Big Band I don't feel confident saying I know the matchups for either of those characters just because I don't think I'm playing either of them at the highest possible level, and I don't know that anyone else is either. Squigly has a lot of really good tools like j.LK, j.HP, Draugen Punch xx Opera, Sing xx Opera, divekick pressure, stancels, level 2 Silver Chord fuck it throw it out there homie sometimes you just gotta shoot that J, etc. I don't know that there's any Squigly players who really make the most out of every single one of these tools (personally I have trouble remembering to use Draugen Punch, after asking Mike in person to buff it hehhhhh, also I don't use the stancels or divekicks well). I imagine her matchups probably change significantly if you make the best use out of all the stuff she has. Big Band's kind of hard to say too because I imagine parry changes a lot of his matchups if you can use it well (I am the worst at parrying).

Gun to my head, though, and I should emphasize I prefaced this with a whole paragraph saying I don't know what I'm talking about, but if I had to I would say their matchups go like this:

Squigly: bad matchups vs Filia, Peacock, and Big Band, good matchups against Bella and Painwheel, even against Parasoul, Fortune, Valentine, and Double

Big Band: bad matchups against Parasoul*, Fortune, and Valentine, FUKUA good matchups against Filia, Painwheel, and Squigly, even matchups against Bella, Peacock, and Double.

*unless the Parasoul player is IsaVulpes, then it's a good matchup
FTFY.

unless big band starts parrying cause OH GOD
 
dekillsage said:
even against bella really? I feel like bella kinda wins that match up pretty solidly
idk. In my experience it feels good for Squigly. Bella j.MP is about as good a jump normal as Squigly j.LK, but the risk/reward of going air to air is in Squigly's favor (unless the Squigly player is cornered, then it's the same risk/reward for both players). And there's actual uses for Daisy Pusher in this matchup. It beats command grab resets, and it beats most (all?) of the followups out of her command run (I've seen Kanchou beat it but I think if you do the Daisy Pusher early enough it still catches it).
Dreamepitaph said:
FTFY.

unless big band starts parrying cause OH GOD
Why would you quote the whole post and change one thing? Anyways if you're going to fix it for me, you should probably also remove the part where I said it was too early to say for Fukua, since saying that and then including Fukua in the list of matchups sort of makes no sense, don't you think?
 
I figured he was talking about Bella VS Big Band.

I think Bella wrecks him, anyway.
 
yeah I was talking about bella vs big band. Bella vs squigly is probably in squigly's flavor
 
dekillsage said:
yeah I was talking about bella vs big band. Bella vs squigly is probably in squigly's flavor
Oh. That wasn't really clear. I guess that could be Bella's favor. She has ways to blow up reversal SSJ, MGR hits from point blank (lol), she has instant overheads on him (I mean who doesn't, but Bella's low/throw game is strong enough that when you add a high option in there it's like maaaaaan GL not getting hit). I wasn't thinking too hard about it I was just like idk even.
Dreamepitaph said:
Nah. fukua so top tier is the way. and she twerks. unless big band can twerk then fukua ez takes the matchup
You're probably one of the worst posters on Skullheart.
 
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But most importantly
you can excellebella after dynamo midscreen like cmon best mu 2ezpz
 
dekillsage said:
But most importantly
you can excellebella after dynamo midscreen like cmon best mu 2ezpz
If she couldn't Excellabella there then it would be 6-4 in favor of Big Band definitely
 
Squigly, IMO, only really needs two things

1. Not get Mauled in Incoming
- If this means putting her 2nd and DHCing into her in every match or putting her on point, either one works

2. Have an assist to create space so she can get a charge

If you have those two things, she can honestly fight any matchup in the game, 4-6 at worst... Except Peacock because fuck Peacock.
 
What does Squigs do against Big Band though? Giant Step seems like it'd cause some problems getting charge.
 
Jason said:
Squigly, IMO, only really needs two things

1. Not get Mauled in Incoming
- If this means putting her 2nd and DHCing into her in every match or putting her on point, either one works

2. Have an assist to create space so she can get a charge

If you have those two things, she can honestly fight any matchup in the game, 4-6 at worst... Except Peacock because fuck Peacock.
but squigs isn't that scary with no meter no?
@DDB she doesn't really need that at all. overheads for days and you can j hp into SBO and then charge and then keep it. there are ways to get charge. but i think the match up is dictated by playing by the player atleast.
 
man have you ever tried to jump towards squigly? Doesn't work loool

probably works if you play fukua
 
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DDB said:
What does Squigs do against Big Band though? Giant Step seems like it'd cause some problems getting charge.
Charge halfway, cancel out of the stance, jump. It is a problem, you're not wrong there, but you can work around it.
 
@DDB I generally just don't charge unless I land a throw in that MU. I can neutral jump + block all day. If the Big Band player uses Step, I can counter with jump fierce. If he tries to A-Train or Brass Knuckle in, I'm blocking and can land a falling j.LK. Squigly just needs to out-lame Big Band.
 
mcpeanuts said:
He switched the order against me because Squigly loses to Peacock and Big Band doesn't. And also because dropkicks.


I don't think she really loses to Peacock. They both just slip through each other's fingers and make for a really frustrating match. But with that said, I can see why he would like BB vs Peacock though.
 
Dhoppler said:
I don't think she really loses to Peacock. They both just slip through each other's fingers and make for a really frustrating match. But with that said, I can see why he would like BB vs Peacock though. Unless peacock gets fullscreen which she easily can.
i like rewriting quotes... its like re-writing history
 
The thing about that. From full screen Squigly just has to double jump over to Peacock because the key to moving in on Peacock is either being patient, having a double jump, or not blocking bullets with your face. But since most people out there tend to be trash players who won't bother learning a matchup or watching a video about how to move in on troublesome characters, I can see why so many people haven't gotten over fighting my character on principle.
 
@Dhoppler
i agree i used to be one of those people that didn't know how to approach the character. however double jump and what not just conditions you. ultimately squigs needs ........assist that allows for lockdown otherwise squigs can get stomped.....Where's Gfarmer's vids vs mulnim's peacock cause maybe we can find something there
 
Dhoppler said:
The thing about that. From full screen Squigly just has to double jump over to Peacock because the key to moving in on Peacock is either being patient, having a double jump, or not blocking bullets with your face. But since most people out there tend to be trash players who won't bother learning a matchup or watching a video about how to move in on troublesome characters, I can see why so many people haven't gotten over fighting my character on principle.

Except you have item drop to deal with that.

Big Band and Bella both have a MUCH easier time dealing with Peacock than Squigly. She's probably Peacock's easiest matchup other than Parasoul. I hope you're not trying to imply that I'm some kind of whiny scrub just because I think its a bad matchup.
 
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