• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Spencer said:
I think yes to an extent. Updo never went anywhere. We didn't "learn to deal with it" so much as we all just accepted that you need a reversal assist on a team. They are still as powerful as they have always been, and they are countered by getting one of your own I also think the Beat Extend proliferation speaks for itself.

This is a nigh perfect game except for two huge red marks: Solo isn't viable, and the necessity of DP assists is a shame. Though I've picked up a team (out of necessity), and FU (out of necessity), that doesn't mean I love the state of either. And to further cement my belief that BE is the strongest assist in the game, I'm looking to drop FU for BE, or in other words... I'm looking to pick up a character I think is generally weak, boring, and really just not my style simply because BE alone will help carry my game further.

Edited to add: We really haven't "figured" much out. DP assists are still handled the exact same way they always have. Bait them out (low risk/low reward) or try to go for a multihit low (or something similar) and happy birthday (high risk/high reward). They still influence the flow of the match more than any single move.

The necessity of a DP assist isn't because other people pick DP assists. They are necessary because the rushdown in this game would be completely and utterly bonkers without them if you're a character without a good reversal. The beta experiment where updo kicked people away further was dumb because suddenly the risks were far lower for the player on offense.

Getting DP assist of your own definitely helps to counter DP assist, but more often than not I don't use DP assists to blow up DP assists unless directly in somone's face. I've gotten much better at avoiding updo by reacting to it coming in and attacking at an angle where it would whiff (do filia IAD j.HK), chicken blocking it (in this case, neutral jumping early then hitting back to avoid getting), or just backdashing away for a split second to come back in after its active frames aren't relevant to me. Even if directly in someone's face, calling another assist directly after updo would come out will punish updo, or you could call an assist to meaty their assist.

You don't need a DP assist to deal with other DP assists, there are a LOT of options in this game to deal with everything. Having your own DP assist does make it easier but that's not a property of the DP assist so much as the fact that it -is- an assist that gives you extra options.

Shit, you're playing Painwheel. A very practical solution to downback or upback+mash assist is charge s.HP/s.LP/c.MP, let it go after you armour updo to get the blockstun then continue with your Painwheel pressure. You could do instant j.HP charge and let it go ontop of your opponent. You can do jumpback j.MP and it will beat updo at certain ranges, unless I am going crazy and that doesn't actually work. I could've sworn it does though.

Though, beat extend reks painwheel since it's two hits, so I'll give you that.
 
Spencer said:
I think yes to an extent. Updo never went anywhere. We didn't "learn to deal with it" so much as we all just accepted that you need a reversal assist on a team. They are still as powerful as they have always been, and they are countered by getting one of your own I also think the Beat Extend proliferation speaks for itself.

???
CaioLugon said:
it's really not hard to not get hit by a dp assist, it's just that we have a VERY strong instinct of not thinking about it when we're going in on the opponent and it feels bad when they don't call the assist and you just sit there and lose your momentum.
?????
Dime_x said:
Um... Hlnl is an invulnerable aka dp assist.

It isnt perfect, but saying its some kind of non dp assist is misleading. You have to hit the thing with a sweep or 3 hits to break its armor... While worrying about the point character...
???????????????????

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Beat extend is super good and unexplored I feel. My favorite thing about it isn't really the fact that it works like a dp but the fact that it pretty much pulls everything up right in front of you. It's very nice yes yes.

Dreamepitaph said:
fair enough. back to the discussion. how does anyone feel about eliza so far in the beta?

Her multi stab assist is really REALLY good wow. woah. Her ability to cancel into sek at any time throws me off too as of right now. And she has some really ambiguous resets too I think she's super solid.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Flotilla
Dreamepitaph said:
Fukua L shadow says hi. that said i'm not counting LNL because 1.
converting isn't its place. its for defensive measures.
2.its very horizontal and covers ground.

DP assist typical are completely invuln and allow conversion with relative ease. sorry but in my view it does not count. might count for you but will never count for me.
Dhoppler said:
No. Not good enough.


If you say so. But a move that goes through other moves = invulnerable...whether you like it or not.
 
Dime_x said:
If you say so. But a move that goes through other moves = invulnerable...whether you like it or not.
you forgot about L shadow. a fast sweep. very sorry man. whether you like it or not its not at all an assist that is invulnerable. pick a different word please.
 
What did i forget about L shadow? That its a "sweep" and beats armor moves? I already said that sweeps beat armor moves.

Throw invulnerable moves dont beat attacks and are still considered invulnerable to throws...


...?


???


Hlnl is invulnerable to non sweeps and anything that hits 2 times or less. Which i already said.

-edit

And dont we call "invincible" assists invincible even though they have 2 frames of non invincible startup?
Yes we do. Pls no semantical anymore. Kthxbye.
 
dimex do you not realize that the difference between lnl and a dp assist is that a dp assist comes out almost instantly while lnl takes time to start up? Like, other player + assist can beat lnl with offense way easier than they could vs a dp assist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cadenza
Dime_x said:
stuff that was pointless
kthxbye someone else.

read dekill's post and talk about invulnerable. so done with someone labelling LNL in the same properties as a dp assist.

when the whole thing is used for covering ground and defensive measures.
 
dekillsage said:
dimex do you not realize that the difference between lnl and a dp assist is that a dp assist comes out almost instantly while lnl takes time to start up? Like, other player + assist can beat lnl with offense way easier than they could vs a dp assist.


Yes sage, i do :)

I'm referring to its ability to straight up beat things when used on offense. Its ability to be used defensively leaves something to be desired... In other words is kinda shit.

But its ability to just straight up beat stuff offensively... Like any other dp assist, is really good. Like for frame traps and poke strings and stuff like that.

I mean i know im no the only person that uses invulnerable assists offensively am i?

Invulnerables are just good because you can use them to blow through opponents patterns and tendencies without to much thought as to timing and spacing... Unlike say trying to blow through an opponent patterns with something non invulnerable like... Parasouls tear shots or something...
 
Welcome to #???

dekillsage said:
Her multi stab assist is really REALLY good wow. woah. Her ability to cancel into sek at any time throws me off too as of right now. And she has some really ambiguous resets too I think she's super solid.

Yeah that assist is pretty damn annoying. I've been thinking of ways to stuff it when it's already out against teams using it in runaway situations. Maybe just snapping it, lmao.

But Sekhmet as a neutral tool is wonderful and I'm waiting to see more of it. It was fun/cute using her in combos and all but it's calling her outside them that is interesting, which is her intended use anyways, right? It has a bit of start-up so you can't just pull it out like Updo/Pillar (on point, not that as an assist you could either) but with a good READ you can throw her out and your opponent IMMEDIATELY has to realize, oh! It's Sekhmet! Time to not try to do the things I normally do.

In a way, it makes you change your gameplan pretty quickly like Fortune head on/head off does, but much more drastically and the transitions feel faster to me too. On the other hand, the ability to punish Eliza/Sekhmet for throwing her out/bringing her back feels like a bigger reward than just smacking Fortune's head since you actually get Eliza for throwing her.

A lot of people complain about not being able to throw her and sometimes I feel that but I know it's just me not paying attention and the Sekhmet player.. actually being good.

She has a high, a low, pretty stupid unsafe blockstrings that can only be covered by calling an assist -before- they're initiated. A lot of people encourage you to throw them at the end of the stupid unsafe blockstring.

Why? I think it might be smarter to block.

If she's on the ground..
  • The low can only come at the start. I guess she could jankily stagger it behind an assist.
  • The multihit could chip you to death. Welp.
  • The overhead happens.
If she's in the air..
  • A high is probably coming, maybe you'll start seeing a funny safe jump into low thing to catch high blockers/back dashers/etc
  • Maybe low? It'd be quite late
  • Multihit
  • Overhead
After that, bar an assist of some sort helping her somewhere in there, here's what usually happens..
  • You throw her (good job!)
  • $!@#!$!# SHE JUMPED AND DID THAT STUPID AXE
I'm not sure why there's a failure rate here, but what if you just don't throw instead?
  • Sekhmet burns meter for being out
  • Sekhmet burns meter for each move, even on block
  • Sekhmet burns meter for cancelling a move to return to the anchor, which may be safer (under an assist, the safest route, but if not..)
  • Sekhmet makes herself entirely vulnerable during the return period in which she can do NOTHING to stop you from throwing her
I'm waiting to see people bait out Eliza into throwing Sekhmet out and then forcing her to either run assists to cover her ass in getting back to the anchor or playing a very smart game in terms of spacing and whatnot.

Eliza players also need to remember that Sekhmet, although having hyper armor, still takes some damage, so you don't become invulnerable with 5 meters just by managing to get into spooky-mode when you're magic pixel. Youu'reee gonna die unless the opponent just utterly loses it.

EDIT: Subnotes

She has a janky left/right with a false version when she's already hit you and you're in the air, I haven't forgotten, haha.
Oh, and she can call her without meter and gets an immediate return. I use the stabby stabby (Butcher's Blade) to torture some Big Band's trying to rush punch me. It's so much fun. Hi @drewski
 
  • Like
Reactions: drewski and dekillsage
Dreamepitaph said:
and now for my last question of the day in this thread.

what position should eliza play(?) and her assist are all versatile.(obvious)

From what IsaVulpes and I discussed, she works best on point just because her incoming options and DHCs feel... eh. But she has a lot of time before we can REALLY say that, IMO.

And.. what is the second question? That's.. a statement? I'm trying to interpret it into a question.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I should mention..

Even though I'm running her on point on my 1st pocket team (Eliza/Squigly/Double atm)
I think the ability to tag her in during ANY COMBO from a launcher or high hitstun move (Para fHP) and then use Divekick to tag half the cast back in either into a combo and some combo out (Double) or just safely in general (Squigly) or tag them in from sliding knockdown on sHK2 is pretty amazing. This means you have to land a hit but.. it's free. It's freakin' free. It costs no meter to tag in Eliza or use Divekick to bring in Double. FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
 
Dime_x said:
Yes sage, i do :)

I'm referring to its ability to straight up beat things when used on offense. Its ability to be used defensively leaves something to be desired... In other words is kinda shit.

But its ability to just straight up beat stuff offensively... Like any other dp assist, is really good. Like for frame traps and poke strings and stuff like that.

I mean i know im no the only person that uses invulnerable assists offensively am i?

Invulnerables are just good because you can use them to blow through opponents patterns and tendencies without to much thought as to timing and spacing... Unlike say trying to blow through an opponent patterns with something non invulnerable like... Parasouls tear shots or something...

I don't feel that LNL is really a blow through everything without timing in spacing unless its vs updo or pillar. Mostly because it only hits horizontally and point + assist can stuff it during its wind up. Parsoul j.hk, lk bomber assist, painwheel j.hk, vals cr.mp or st.mp, filia french twist etc. It does however become really strong when you force the opponent to deal with you first.

An invulnerable assist, imo, is one that you can't challenge with your point with a none armor move. LNL you can swing at, but you can't really do that vs updo or pillar or lk bomber because they're invincible.

It's still super good though. Top 3 for sure. ᄽὁȍ ̪ őὀᄿᄽὁȍ ̪ őὀᄿᄽὁȍ ̪ őὀᄿ
 
  • Like
Reactions: gllt
Luweewu said:
protip: camp next to the anchor when sekh's out. suddenly half her safer options are gone and they're burning meter.

what does this mean?
 
dekillsage said:
what does this mean?

When Sekhmet is out, hang near her anchor because her returning to it is now devastatingly unsafe. I get it. This is pretty mean, lmao. Pro FPS stratz.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Luweewu
dekillsage said:
what does this mean?
She's forced to open you up in some form otherwise you can just punish her when she tries to get back to Eliza.

Val'd.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Luweewu
Oh that's what you guys call that thing lol. Thanks for the tip
 
  • Like
Reactions: gllt
dekillsage said:
I don't feel that LNL is really a blow through everything without timing in spacing unless its vs updo or pillar. Mostly because it only hits horizontally and point + assist can stuff it during its wind up. Parsoul j.hk, lk bomber assist, painwheel j.hk, vals cr.mp or st.mp, filia french twist etc. It does however become really strong when you force the opponent to deal with you first.

An invulnerable assist, imo, is one that you can't challenge with your point with a none armor move. LNL you can swing at, but you can't really do that vs updo or pillar or lk bomber because they're invincible.

It's still super good though. Top 3 for sure. ᄽὁȍ ̪ őὀᄿᄽὁȍ ̪ őὀᄿᄽὁȍ ̪ őὀᄿ


Yeah i can agree with this.

I also concede that it might be somewhat disingenuous for me to compare it to a dp assist as a rote comparison. I just think its also disingenuous to say that players like sonicfox and tj didnt have gtfo/invulnerable/super high priority assists helping them out when they had hlnl blowing all kinds of stuff up.

I mean tj goes to the corner then does st.hp plus call hlnl and teleports at which point you have an armored assist that you cant hit because its facing away from you, coming in and protecting tjs port. It isnt unbeatable but its damn good and made much better by hlnl being a combination of non duckable, extremely high damage, and armored. Maybe thats all besides the point maybe its not..
Idk.
 
I know it's damn annoying. Duo/HLnL is my worst nightmare, no matter who is in front of it. Filia or Peacock. Seriously, !@#$ that shell.
 
At the end of the day, it's way better on offense than it will ever be on defense, and nobody has ever won evo by jumping over a dp assist or falling on it with a multi-hitting move.
 
This is just a general question are these tiers based on 1v1 scenarios or are they on a pro/con basis?
 
1v1 scenarios are almost never a good basis for tiers in this game simply because it isn't a 1v1 game. So it's usally based on a pro/con basis, I guess.
 
Interesting I might have to read the entire thread to get a better idea. Thanks Nap for the heads up
 
I wouldn't recommend reading this entire thread because it's a mess honestly. Half of it is going to be about us arguing over how to make a tier list, much less who goes where and why.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dhoppler, KhaosMuffins and Spencer
Well thats why I think there should be separate normalized list for each position on a team. one for 1v1, one for point on 2v2, anchor 2v2, point 3v3, mid 3v3, and anchor 3v3. Now I'm not trying to argue about this Im just making a suggestion to put everything on an even playing field
 
Spencer said:
Though I've picked up a team (out of necessity), and FU (out of necessity), that doesn't mean I love the state of either. And to further cement my belief that BE is the strongest assist in the game, I'm looking to drop FU for BE, or in other words... I'm looking to pick up a character I think is generally weak, boring, and really just not my style simply because BE alone will help carry my game further.
I had a longer response to this but I shortened it to - that's your problem.

I speak from the experience of playing high-level MvC2 for ten years without an invincible assist on my team when I say the following:
I don't think you having Beat Extend (or any other assist attached to a character you don't mesh with) will help you win significantly more versus decent players once people snap them in. Picking a character that doesn't suit your playstyle because it gives you something that you will use less well than people who want the entire character is mostly adding dead weight to your team. You may experience an uptick in the short run but overall you will probably perform worse.

Spencer said:
Edited to add: We really haven't "figured" much out.
That's an entirely accurate statement.

Invulnerable assists will always be useful, but they are only first-order-optimal good. The community at large is not past that stage yet, believe it or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Armageddon11, Flotilla and drewski
Wait, the community at large has managed to hit first order optimal good?

WOOOOOOO! We're improving!
 
  • Like
Reactions: evilben
I can say though only from anecdotal experience that it absolutely has helped me win in the past. When I went from PW to an assist Squigly (one I didn't learn to use for a while and just basically used as a pocket assist), I saw an immediate increase in win rates and players/teams that gave me trouble before were often easier.

Shortly after that to fill both Squigs and PWs reversal needs, I added an MF who is still super scrub tier. Adding just FU alone has again helped out immensely. It literally changes the flow of my opponent to one that is more advantageous. And I'm not exaggerating, if it gets to my MF... shit went horribly wrong, but I'm learning her and getting better every time I play her so at some point I'll have the benefit of FU and a third. I imagine BB will be the same, no?

The snap-out is only half a solution. I play well enough to know how to keep away long enough to get a better point in. Coupled with PWs above average tag-in... I'm getting her back in and usually launching right into a combo when I do. That said, I'll eventually learn to play BB well enough that it doesn't matter if I get snapped out anyway.

I was mostly just commenting that to pick up that sexy assist (BE), I'm willing to play a character I don't really get inspired by (unlike my PW... whom I love) because it is an outstanding assist.
 
When you say you got a sudden surge in win rate, is that in sets or just in quick match? Cause I can steal games off of Duck, Taluda, dekillsage, etc., but they'll beat me 20-3 if we just keep playing.
 
Mike_Z said:
I had a longer response to this but I shortened it to - that's your problem.

I speak from the experience of playing high-level MvC2 for ten years without an invincible assist on my team when I say the following:
I don't think you having Beat Extend (or any other assist attached to a character you don't mesh with) will help you win significantly more versus decent players once people snap them in. Picking a character that doesn't suit your playstyle because it gives you something that you will use less well than people who want the entire character is mostly adding dead weight to your team. You may experience an uptick in the short run but overall you will probably perform worse.


That's an entirely accurate statement.

Invulnerable assists will always be useful, but they are only first-order-optimal good. The community at large is not past that stage yet, believe it or not.
Psyclocke and Captain Commando -- characters that are literally dead weight aside from their invincible assists -- were on how many teams in MvC2 for how many years?

Invincible assists are more than just first order optimal strategies in a tag game. In a game like Skullgirls where the invincible assists are on characters that are actually playable, you're always going to see a whole lot of Filia, Parasoul, and Band.
 
Except top tier players could put in good work with their invincible assists. I mean, i've seen plenty of legit Commando and Psylocke play over the years.
 
alexpi said:
When you say you got a sudden surge in win rate, is that in sets or just in quick match? Cause I can steal games off of Duck, Taluda, dekillsage, etc., but they'll beat me 20-3 if we just keep playing.

It was consistent and has remained consistent. I'm still not going to beat Taluda, but vs players more on my level I saw an increase. Even in sets I consistently lose, I lose less badly with a team.

I think it is two-fold. First, PW has natural weaknesses built in, and when I get an assist, I do away with a lot of that. Second, it forces the opponent to play differently. Solo PW specifically is an invitation to be rushed down. You are constantly on the defensive and there isn't much you can do about it until you score a hit. Simply by adding an assist (and especially a DP assist), the opponent has to play more intelligently and more safely. It stops the more overt non-sense a solo player has to deal with. Not to mention that Squigly(2hp) with PW turns her into a reset monster.

So even though my Squigly is okay and my MF is ass, it has turned my already pretty damn decent PW into a much better version of herself... even with the hit to health and damage. And if I stick it out (I've actually gone back to a lot more solo play for funsies), they just get better.
 
So where are people putting Big Band now? I feel like he's high mid tier or lower high tier. He may even be a solid high tier character but i cant think of him as low anymore now that i know how good his j.lk is as a preemptive AA. He can j.lk rushdown even characters like filia or bella. And combined with beat extend defense and pbgc ssj plus his double jumping footsies and fullscreen offense/defense... He's pretty damned good.
 
Dime_x said:
So where are people putting Big Band now? I feel like he's high mid tier or lower high tier. He may even be a solid high tier character but i cant think of him as low anymore now that i know how good his j.lk is as a preemptive AA. He can j.lk rushdown even characters like filia or bella. And combined with beat extend defense and pbgc ssj plus his double jumping footsies and fullscreen offense/defense... He's pretty damned good.

i would put him low-mid.
his 'defense' is usually forced which leads you to bait out his stuff.
reason why he's forced is because of his size. EVERY character can just press a button at him. beat extend is there. but in terms of that and how people set band up. then what? SSJ?

nonetheless his defense is notable. but he's got some major flaws. at some point you get an edge you can go full screen and prep for when he has to go in. and he can't do anything fullscreen nor throw out anything. cymbal clash is a good defensive.

overall after playing players with beat extend assist. i'm starting to realize why it isn't that good. Its good if you're already pressing a button while the opponent is blocking and then you use the assist. its not good if you meaty the hit WITH an asssist of your own.

TLDR: he's low mid
 
I've no idea where to place him to be honest.

His assists alone have to elevate him a few spots, no? They are amazing.

But when he's up, I'm generally underwhelmed. He has to make a lot of risky guesses and so I think he starts all neutral at something of a disadvantage. That said, his greedy damage is something that has to be respected. SSJ does so much damage that you have to respect it, and it makes resetting him an always risky prospect.
 
Spencer said:
I've no idea where to place him to be honest.

His assists alone have to elevate him a few spots, no? They are amazing.

But when he's up, I'm generally underwhelmed. He has to make a lot of risky guesses and so I think he starts all neutral at something of a disadvantage. That said, his greedy damage is something that has to be respected. SSJ does so much damage that you have to respect it, and it makes resetting him an always risky prospect.
Or you can just set him up to block.

So he has to respect your block. since everything he does is high risk high reward.

his assist is good. but catching him in happy bday is easy as hell once you find setups such as meaty reset (if you think the opponent will call BB)

when he's incoming and on the field its not particularly too hard to get him unless he's got the edge. then he'll be waiting for you to do dumb shit like you wait for him to do dumb shit
 
big band can challenge pretty much anything with j.lk and cymbal clash, his defensive options are EXTREMELY good if you can use absolute guard and pbgc (beat extend+assist tho), he has pretty good mixup options, he has good fullscreen options and keeps you under mental pressure at all times...

with bad players BB is bad, with good players BB is great.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Broseidon Rex, SmashBlade, Dhoppler and 2 others
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back