Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

[ClarenceMage]

wtf is double gonna do to bella? shoot me? then shoot me. if bella has the life lead its basically a waiting game for double to die.

you wanna j hp? armor dynamo
you wanna dash low? armor 360

pls tell me you're bold enough for a run up throw.

um okay i guess every character in the game is a bad matchup for bella because you can gimmick people with armour on read? at any point double could choose to not j.HP or not dash low and bella just did qcf P at neutral, the ones with armour are also very easy to whiff punish due to added startup. backdash fugazi knuckle woop time for hard knockdown mixups.

re: Valentine & Painwheel comparison

Valentine is not a worse Painwheel, they do very different things. Painwheel can't superjump to the top of the screen and ignore the entire rest of the cast's options, and then airdash j.MK xx shuriken to cross over and come down with cover, allowing you to escaping the corner without many fucks given if your defense is accurate. IMO one very large reason Val is top tier is because she has the ability to, if she has even the slightest amount of breathing room, abort the situation entirely and try again from any angle she very well pleases.

There are two major ways of a character to have dominant neutral, one is having big fuckoff buttons that can't be contested, and the other is to give no fucks about the opponent's neutral because of being in a higher class of movement, and Valentine is absolutely representative of the second one.

This aspect of Valentine requires the willingness to not rush that shit down at every single opportunity, and Skullgirls is an offense-heavy enough game for players to routinely ignore this aspect of Valentine. If you want a comparison to another character, look at UMVC3 Magneto. He has such good movement he can abort, run away, and reset the neutral to his liking whenever he pleases. Most of my losses when playing Magneto is trying to rush down too hard with him and getting bopped by counterpokes, which is ALSO where most of my losses came from with Val until I consciously changed my gameplan to be more patient in neutral.

Magneto also sucks when you suck at Magneto and suck at patient movement & positioning based play, and there is not high enough level competition or common representation of Valentine to have a standard to aspire to.

 

[dekillsage]

My valentine is nice

 

[cloudKing211]

"sigh"

My valentine is nice

Anyways, legit double would do fine if hp luger used her crouch hurtbox, as in the animation had her crouch and shoot. It would still get hit by meaty setups, but can actually aa much more reliably. If this change ever happened (nope), double would go up alot I feel

 

[cloudKing211]

Also, is everyone ignoring double's universal 8.1-8.2k bnbs or something? She has damage, better reward off of luger reads, and great assist mixups. Her no reliable anti pressure tool is thnly thing stopping her from being imbalanced imo. Maybe that and her damage off of j.hp

 

[ClarenceMage]

Double's reset game is monstrously good when backed by an assist. Midscreen crossunder/not crossunder/air throw mixup, and if you see they block a crossunder/not crossunder you call assist and do teleport/not teleport for another left-right mixup, and if they block that you get post-blocked-assist mixup of some kind. That's at least three opportunities to cleanly open someone up from a single reset point.

 

[Colossi]

Spoiler: My thoughts on Val

@Dreamepitaph
Val really needed those buffs, specially the dead cross ones. They help a lot with spacing, specially against Peacock and zoning-ish Parasouls.
The bypass changes opened some damaging combo routes, new burst and reset options, but nothing stronger than the regular route. Look at bypass loops the way you would look at optimized kanchou/pummel horse/runstop combos. They are mostly better ways to deal high damage (except that runstop offers Bella an amazing low/throw mixup). The scaling is something I agree, too. If they block/you whiff, you can make it safer with scalpels. If you hit them, free (probably MCH) combo.
The counter was kinda needed. It feels waaaaaaaay too risky and demands a hard read, and sometimes the enemy's height makes it kinda hard to convert. Also, the moment the enemy bursts is also something you have to read, so I guess now it's not much of a big deal.
The mortuary drop is something I asked Mike to put, because I feel that mortuary drop should hit when you're pushblocked. I mean, the move is already slow and reactable as hell, so why not?
I think that having 3 air scalpels are better than a slow lvl 3 that you can't convert off with anything (Maybe lvl 3 item drop?Maybe Mike puts a crumple on it?). It IS a hitgrab, so you can answer an SSJ with that if you're going to kill him. No words about this change.
s.mp(x1) change wasn't necessary, since you could combo into s.hp with the last hit of s.mp(x1) and the first hit of s.mp(x2). Vacuum on s.mp(x2) was necessary, tho.
Bypass assist change is helping my Bella so much that I've been even playing Bella/Val now. Probably Bella/Val/Fukua in the future.

I don't believe in tier lists, so I won't make one here.

 

[Tomo009]

Bypass also allows Val to confirm from anywhere and anytime in the air now. Something she lacked before, in fact only really Painwheel had that ability.

If anyone thinks the bypass change just gives Val more damage, they are missing some very important parts of the game. Or they have too heavy a focus on combos specifically.

 

[Colossi]

The scaling is something I agree, too. If they block/you whiff, you can make it safer with scalpels. If you hit them, free (probably MCH) combo.

 

[Dime]

Val is REALLY good in skullgirls, in any version of the game. Specific players playstyles have been nerfed (ducks ability to be lame with ground shurikens behind blocked assist calls, being the primary player specific nerf)

Shes tied for best mobility in the game with painwheel, and is maybe slightly slower than filia. But all in all its easy to consider to have both the fastest speed and best mobility.

Combine that with high damage, scary good resets, scary good burst baits and any hit basically can corner the other team for an entire round... Plus her aerial pokes while not the best in the game are certainly comparable with the best...

Her touted to be bad defense is also seriously whatever. Pw has arguably worse defensive ground reversals. And BB who has rather good defense, isnt considered by most to be a reason enough to put him in high tier.

Val is a highly mobile speedster, that lacks the archetypes usual restrictions of low hp and low damage.

 

[Tomo009]

I don't get it. If you are doing an air to air confirm, you shouldn't be getting blocked?

 

[ClarenceMage]

@Colossi i can't quote your post since it's just a quote but: Doing yolo air bypass and using super to make it safer is a sometimes-punishable gimmick just like before - all that's changed is that you don't need to spend meter on hit. Doing j.LP j.MK, confirm L bypass is good confirm usage of L Bypass. Doing jumpback j.HK (optional adf j.MK) xx confirm L Bypass is good confirm usage of L Bypass. Both work at every height and lead to a consistent otg combo into full corner carry.

 

[CaioLugon]

Tk bypass + assist tho

 

[ukyo_rulz]

This aspect of Valentine requires the willingness to not rush that shit down at every single opportunity, and Skullgirls is an offense-heavy enough game for players to routinely ignore this aspect of Valentine.

What I got out of this is essentially that Valentine is really, really good at doing something that is not good in the game. Why is the game rushdown-heavy? Because SG is an offense-oriented game. What does Valentine get out of resetting to neutral anyway? She's not Peacock. She needs to get in again at some point. If Valentine had decent zoning, her movement would make her godlike.

If you want a comparison to another character, look at UMVC3 Magneto. He has such good movement he can abort, run away, and reset the neutral to his liking whenever he pleases.

This works for Mags because he actually has decent zoning so going back to neutral is not bad for him. Imagine if we gave Wolverine tools to "reset the situation to neutral". I think they would be useful to a certain extent, but not enough to make a character top tier on their own.

 

[Dime]

What does Valentine get out of resetting to neutral anyway?

The ability to re engage from ridiculous angles at her own discretion. Which IS very powerful. Also, beta vals air shuriken has been super buffed and resembles akuma airfireballs on crack, but faster. So she cant easily engage behind one, but she can stall with them easily and set up differing spacings.



If you are trying to play val in a non lame way, thats the reason for your problems. I used to beat down clarences val when he was offensive with her, but via tomo a d myself showing that that wasnt the proper way to play her, he came around to the stupidity that lame val is. And shes really realky jard to stop be ause she can do so mich shit that is simply to high to properly engage with.


Ithe closest i can liken it to is mvc2 storm turtling.


It isnt THAT BAD, of course, but it can be for smaller amounts of time.

-edit

Ipad typing on bus, sorry fir the typos.

 

[ClarenceMage]

Why is the game rushdown-heavy? Because SG is an offense-oriented game.

"The game is rushdown heavy because the game is rushdown heavy" is not valid reasoning. Please try again.

Both offensive and defensive play are strong in Skullgirls. Defensive play is not running away and blocking - defensive play is setting up positioning to bait the opponent into over-extending, and punish the over-extension. Because of Val's incredibly strong movement, she has incredible ability to punish over-extensions, and the means to create positioning to invite over-extension.

 

[Dime]

"The game is rushdown heavy because the game is rushdown heavy" is not valid reasoning. Please try again.

Both offensive and defensive play are strong in Skullgirls. Defensive play is not running away and blocking - defensive play is setting up positioning to bait the opponent into over-extending, and punish the over-extension. Because of Val's incredibly strong movement, she has incredible ability to punish over-extensions, and the means to create positioning to invite over-extension.

And because of her ability to punish overextending it makes characters turtle up against her, which is a good thing for her since shes so fast and can go to offense so quickly :)


Shes good because shes fast, in a nutshell, as weve all been saying this entire time... Do we really need to break this shit down step by step? (Rhetorical, just thinking out loud)

 

[Spencer]

If you think defensive play is weak in this game, you should play some of the more defensive oriented higher-tier.

Taluda plays a very patient PW that is going to get the better of you in most situations. He'll throw nails at you until you lose your mind and jump-in recklessly only to see half your life disappear.

Flotilla plays a smart BB that capitalizes on your mindless rushdown.

Jem is incredibly happy to force you to approach and punish you when you do.

I actually think offense in the neutral is weaker in this game than a lot of others that I play. It isn't until you confirm into a combo that the "offense is too strong" rears its ugly head.


----------

My own 2 cents on the Val buffs is that she needed some help and for the most part got exactly what she needed. The extra damage she got on top of it all? That's too much.

 

[ukyo_rulz]

The ability to re engage from ridiculous angles at her own discretion. Which IS very powerful.

I have always said that Val has great movement, which is a great thing for her. In fact I think it's pretty much the only thing Val has over the rest of the cast. She has some cool corner combos and nice mix-ups, but everyone has those. I remain unconvinced that Val's great movement is better than Painwheel's "not quite as good but still great movement, and better everything else".

Also, beta vals air shuriken has been super buffed and resembles akuma airfireballs on crack, but faster. So she cant easily engage behind one, but she can stall with them easily and set up differing spacings.

I have not seen Beta Val's shuriken but as I mentioned above if she can zone decently now (not even great zoning, just decent is enough) then beta Val might very well be significantly improved. Maybe top tier.

If you are trying to play val in a non lame way, thats the reason for your problems.

Wrong. The reason for my problems was that I wasn't playing as Peacock or Fukua.

"The game is rushdown heavy because the game is rushdown heavy" is not valid reasoning. Please try again.

Not what I said at all. The game is rushdown heavy because the system favors rushdown. Maybe because I played MVC2 for more than a decade, but I think this whole "playing lame" business will taper off in the end just like it did in MVC2. This isn't SF4. It's not like the tools aren't there to apply pressure intelligently/safely.

 

[Dime]

Wrong. The reason for my problems was that I wasn't playing as Peacock or Fukua.

Lol. Im not trying to comvince anyone of the differences between pw and val. What im saying is that val is top tier in basically every version of sg that has ever been.


As far as fukua is concerned, im not convinced that shes the best. Top 5 for me but she isnt val. As far as peacock is concerned, shes hardcountered by brass assist to me. She can still play an effective game for sure, but brass hardcounters most of the top tier shit that peacock wants to do, in general. She seems highly manageable when i have brass on my team.

Asa far as painwheels better everything else, pw doesnt convert off of assists as well as val, painwheel doesnt throw airforeballs, painwheel doesnt have a special thats available on the ground and in the air that moves her full screen near instantly, painwheel doesnt have an airdash or a double jump or vials to induce major damaging combos or resets that become completely unreactable allowing val to not have to go for scaled low/throw combos but instead she can go with left/right mixups that are unscaled starters. Painwheel also doesnt have a run much less the fastest run in the game. Painwheel cant cancel her aerial normals with no startup time (flight as compared to airdash)

There are lots of differences between painwheel and val, val has weaknesses that painwheel doesnt and painwheel has weaknesses that val doesnt. Its funny though that you think painwheel does everything that val does, except better when pw cant even double jump or airdash.


This isnt to say that i think pw is bad. I actually think pw is possibly top 3 along with val in the beta, and midtier in retail. In the beta its kinda like comparing apples and oranges, in retail though the differences are striking. Id argue that retail val is a better pw. But only retail.

 

[ClarenceMage]

The game is rushdown heavy because the system favors rushdown.

"The game is rushdown heavy because the game is rushdown heavy" is not valid reasoning. Please try again.

 

[ukyo_rulz]

Lol. Im not trying to comvince anyone of the differences between pw and val. What im saying is that val is top tier in basically every version of sg that has ever been.

I think she was pretty good in the very first iteration, when she could green-vial into a kill from anywhere.

As far as peacock is concerned, shes hardcountered by brass assist to me. She can still play an effective game for sure, but brass hardcounters most of the top tier shit that peacock wants to do, in general.

You may have a valid point here. My experience with BB (and Eliza) is not extensive. Despite this, I still see Peacock as being extremely strong simply because she can apply pressure from a safe distance. More distance means less risk, and I pretty much see all fighting games as an exercise in risk-mitigation. She's susceptible to stuff like Parasoul's bike (and I guess Brass as well) but then again if she didn't have those weaknesses she would just simply be godlike.

I see Peacock as sharing the same perception problem as MVC3 Wolverine. They are both massively overrated by beginners and casuals, so more experienced players over-compensate by underrating them. "These characters' strengths are obvious and readily apparent, so they will become obsolete when the hidden strengths of the rest of the cast are unlocked". But sometimes the obviously strong characters turn out to be good after all.

Its funny though that you think painwheel does everything that val does, except better when pw cant even double jump or airdash.

My point is not that Val and PW have the same tools. It's that they share the same basic gameplan and PW's tools are better at executing that plan. For example, PW can fly. I'll take that over dashes and jumps any day.

This isnt to say that i think pw is bad. I actually think pw is possibly top 3 along with val in the beta, and midtier in retail. In the beta its kinda like comparing apples and oranges, in retail though the differences are striking. Id argue that retail val is a better pw. But only retail.

I don't play beta because my main PC only has Linux and whenever I boot up my Windows laptop I wind up playing MTGO or Hearthstone instead of SG, so I'll just go ahead and take everything you said about beta as true.

"The game is rushdown heavy because the game is rushdown heavy" is not valid reasoning. Please try again.

This looks like an ELI5 situation. Here ya go:

Skullgirls is an offense-heavy enough game

You got this far on your own, so this is what we'll use as a starting point. SG is an offense-heavy game. There are some notable exceptions, but for the most part different players from separate communities converged on an aggressive playstyle. This is because they all recognized that the risk/reward system of the game favors players who take the initiative (a sharp contrast to a game like SF4, that favors players who react to the opponent's plays).

 

[ClarenceMage]

This looks like an ELI5 situation.

Don't condescend me after you have failed to explain anything substantial, and attempted to assert your stance by acting as if it is self-evident.

You are just saying "The game's risk reward favours players who take the initiative" but this still means nothing... What are they doing by taking initiative? Initiative in what sense? You can take intiative to set up a defensive situation in your favour, but that isn't offense.

You almost made a point when you said that you can react to more of your opponent's actions in SF4, but you did nothing. Let me complete your point for you: Skullgirls' offense and offensive neutral game is more difficult to react to than most games, therefore going on offense is strong in Skullgirls.

Let's walk through this step by step to see if you can learn, by example, how to set up a coherent set of statements.

Skullgirls' pressure and mixup game is very strong. This is what makes offense in Skullgirls a great option, and rewards offensive play.

This does not necessarily mean defensive neutral game is weak. Playing on offense has more direct reward, but playing hamyolo offense outside of beginner and low intermediate levels of play results in one-dimensional playstyles that are easily punishable by defensive space control (ie most obviously, uppercut assists).

Being defensive in neutral game is not as easy as going ham on offense, since it is a more even situation that can go to either players favour very quickly, but that does not mean that in the long run it is not a viable or even potentially superior option against heavy offense.

In games where offense is very strong, defense is used in order to set up further offense after proper defensive play has been successful. This is obvious in games such as KoF13 - Anti-air a hop, use their air reset time to rush that shit down. Is KoF13 an offense heavy game? Absolutely. Are characters with good defensive options horrible in KoF13? Absolutely not. Nearly all of the top tier have the ability to play a strong defensive game in addition to their offensive game.

Valentine is the kind of character who can set up strong defensive neutral game situations, in order to convert them into offense after she has succeeded at defense. She is still capable of offense, but compared to other characters her linear offense is not as strong. This does not mean that she is a weaker character than - this means she is stronger in an aspect of the game that other characters in the game are not nearly as well-equipped to do.

Therefore, the perception arises from players who play most other characters in the game, that Valentine is a character who is bad. Essentially, they are judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree. Valentine is being judged by the wrong criterea by players who cannot see the big picture in unique character strengths.

 

[Spencer]

My point is not that Val and PW have the same tools. It's that they share the same basic gameplan and PW's tools are better at executing that plan. For example, PW can fly. I'll take that over dashes and jumps any day.

I think first I should say that I agree with Elda and Dime that PW is pushing top tier. On top of that, fly is fucking good... great even. You'll never hear a PW say otherwise. That said, it is as much a crutch as it is a boon. A big level-up for PW players is realizing that you should be playing from the ground using fly to supplement that.

Why? PW's normals plummet her to the ground. While flying, she has zero answers to anything above her. She can't block, and unfly requires both frame perfect execution and a good read, so there is always an inherent risk with flying.

And while it fills a very similar role to Val's double jump and air dashes, it functions very differently too. Assists have to be built around PW. We prefer lockdowns because it gives us the time to fly and confirm from just about anywhere on screen. That said, if we are moving backwards when an updo or pillar hits, we are likely not getting a combo out of it.

Fly also cannot function as a GTFO like Val's movement options can, not without assists anyway. PW doesn't get to play a keep away game from most of the cast. The best we get to do is to fly to the top right corner which works against say Peacock, but vs most of the cast it eventually backs us up into the stage corner.

In fact, this reminds me to give some advice to newer PWs... fly less than you probably are. You'll notice an improvement to your game, I swear.

 

[Elda Taluda]

In fact, this reminds me to give some advice to newer PWs... fly less than you probably are. You'll notice an improvement to your game, I swear.

A hundred times this. You might see me flying around a ton in matches but that's mostly because I think I've got a good idea of when and where it should be okay to do so (this is not always the case!).

Flying around willy-nilly in neutral just because PW is able to is suicide. Learn the match ups. In some cases you really are better off on the ground. A dash into j.mp from fullscreen will connect against most characters while ensuring that you have enough time to safely wind up and protect yourself at the same time.

 

[Dime]

It actually took me a long time to figure out when to fly and when not to and when to be grounded and when not to.

My newest thing with painwheel, well, newest for me even though ive been doing it for months, is to use dash in st.mk.

Its sooo good for those times when the opponent might be just leaving the ground, or not. Having it in a pws repertoire allows pw to be much more liberal with her dash in ground offense and ESPECIALLY works well against filia since the st.mk will blowup filias iad stuff.

Its one of my favorite tactics to use in certain matchups (bella, double, filia amongst some others) blows up bellas LNL and j.mp, filias iad stuff, doubles j.hp and can be charged for armor.

Its amazingly good and just another of the many tools at painwheels disposal. I guess thats ot though..
Sorry.

 

[ukyo_rulz]

Don't condescend me after you have failed to explain anything substantial, and attempted to assert your stance by acting as if it is self-evident.

I am not claiming it to be self-evident at all. I welcome disagreement and discussion but if you're going to repeatedly miss the point, that's an ELI5 situation right there. I'm willing to rephrase, restate and simplify to a certain extent based on a good-faith belief that you are genuinely unable to understand the point I am trying to get across, but at some point I'm just going to assume that you're trolling me.

Let me complete your point for you

Ah, so you were trolling me. Nicely played. I fell for it twice. I'm not really interested in a meta-argument over whether my posts were "coherent". You somehow managed to grasp enough to actually compose a reply with actual arguments, which is enough for further discussion. You can PM me about my coherence, composition and style if you wish. Or keep posting here I guess. It's a free world.

As for the meat of your argument, the first part boils down to "aggressive gameplay is risky when you don't think" which I actually agree with, but do not see as being relevant. You'll eat reversals all day if you go yolo on offense just like you'll eat setups all day if you mash reversals, bursts and assists on defense. For a tier-list to make any kind of sense, it must be assumed that the characters are being played competently by evenly matched players.

The second part of your argument boils down to this:

Valentine is the kind of character who can set up strong defensive neutral game situations, in order to convert them into offense after she has succeeded at defense.

Now this argument would be relevant if it were correct, but I don't see it. This very thread had discussion on Val's sub-par defensive capabilities just a couple of pages back:

their defensive game is poor.

Dime's take made more sense to me:

The ability to re engage from ridiculous angles at her own discretion.

This, again, emphasizes the importance of taking initiative as opposed to being reactive. I do agree that Val is good at engaging on her own terms, though I still don't see how it's particularly good to be able to "get back to neutral and then re-engage". She's either winning the up-close game or she isn't. If she's winning up-close going back to neutral would be the last thing she wants to do once she's in. If she's not winning up-close going back to neutral just forces her to go back in at some point.

There is also this:

it is a more even situation that can go to either players favour very quickly

Why would Val want to get into an even situation that can go either way when she has amazing movement that she can use to "engage from ridiculous angles at her own discretion"?

What kind of "defensive neutral game situation" do you see Val setting up? Can you give situations where "converting to offense after succeeding at defense" is a superior option for Val as compared to "engaging from ridiculous angles at her own discretion"?

 

[Tomo009]

The problem I think, is you are taking defense as a situation of disadvantage. That isn't what CM is talking about. Valentine has a fantastic defensive toolkit at neutral, she can dance around other characters and harass with shuriken/assists until she has the advantage/angle to go on the offensive.

 

[ukyo_rulz]

The problem I think, is you are taking defense as a situation of disadvantage.

Not at all. I am taking defense as playing reactively. In some games (like SF4) this is extremely advantageous. Part of my point is that SG is not one of those games and Val is not one of those characters. If CM or anyone else would like to prove me wrong, they are welcome to do so.

Dancing around other characters and harassing with shuriken/assists is not defensive play. She's doing her thing, forcing the other player to react to her harassment. It's the opposite of defensive play.

 

[ClarenceMage]

She's either winning the up-close game or she isn't. If she's winning up-close going back to neutral would be the last thing she wants to do once she's in. If she's not winning up-close going back to neutral just forces her to go back in at some point.

You are doing yourself no favours by tunnel-visioning into either winning up close or you are not winning. Valentine is not a character like SF4 Dudley whose strength is their incredible up-close mixup game, where indeed he is either in and winning or out and losing. She has good and functional up close mixup but it is not the best.

Why would Val want to get into an even situation that can go either way when she has amazing movement that she can use to "engage from ridiculous angles at her own discretion"?

This does not logically follow.

You are saying yourself that Valentine has amazing movement and can engage from ridiculous angles at her own discretion.

Then, you are somehow rhetorically questioning why Valentine would even want to go back into neutral... when you have stated very clearly that he can engage from ridiculous angles at her own discretion.

Her offensive air movement in pressure situations is slower and therefore less safe than other similar characters offensive movement(ie IAD j.HP being kinda slow but still really good, bdad j.LK taking a lot of setup time, compared to Filia IAD j.LK and IAD j.HK repectively. Filia gets better mixups up close from pressure.), but in exchange she has better ability to bait out counterpokes, supers, and reversals and then punish them, as well as adjust for pushblock better than lots of characters. Because she has some of the best frame advantage on medium normals in the game, making frametrap confirms(s.MP) and upback checks(c.MK) very safe on normal block.

When opponents delay pushblock vs Val at the end of blockstun, Val is at very small negatives (-2 on s.MP and c.MK) so the pushblock essentially grants her more frame advantage to set up advantageous positioning around her opponent before or slightly after their pushblock animation ends.

This is why returning to neutral is a great idea for Valentine's pressure, because her neutral directly after being pushblocked out allows her to set up grossly advantageous situations in her favour. It is neutral in so far that neither character is being pressured, but the positioning is very clearly is in Val's favour.

Can you give situations where "converting to offense after succeeding at defense" is a superior option for Val as compared to "engaging from ridiculous angles at her own discretion"?

Those situations are very closely linked. Being able to engage from ridiculous angles at her own discretion is the reward for correct positional play that invites opponents to over-extend.

Perhaps defensive might not be the correct word to describe what Valentine does, even though defensive neutral game is something that Valentine is incredibly strong at. She is incredibly good at positional play and creating situations of neutral game advantage that most characters have extreme difficulty contesting, and situations of neutral game defense that most characters have extreme difficulty punishing.

 

[Dime]

It isnt rocket science. If you are moving backwards its defense, if you are moving forwrds it is offense.

Whatevr your particular movement ENDS in makes it either offensive or defensive.

Slayer on GG has a move called dandy step, he moves backwards then quickly moves forwards. The backward motion is defensive, the ending forwrad motion is offensive. Since it ends in an offensive movement it is considered by most players, rightly so, to be an offensive move.

Jumping forward then double jumping backward is seen as a defensive style jump. Whereas jumping backward then double jumpjng forward is considered a more offensive style of jump.

Because what you end in is generally what it is.

Val can move backwards by jumping back, then double jump backwards for even more defensive spacial control, then move forward via airdash j.mk while calling an assist to be offensive in a way that is super hard for any character to do anything about, then she can move forward with a high priority air to air attack (j.mk) at a level higher than superjump height while calling an assist to cover the ground for her as she lands or as she crosses the arena.

Neither of these is particulrly easy to stop at all, and both are easy to setup non committal ways of moving around.

As compared to a backdash... You cant block during. Or a jump back that is counterable by dash jump airthrow.


This isnt the on,y pattern val can use by a longshot though... It just serves to show how val can use the screen to do things that most characters either cant do anything about, or are super hard pressed to do anything about.


And thats just her lame game. She still has j.hk, bypass, great resets, a super fast run, and high damage on top of that ability to run.

She isnt easy to use in a lame fashion, but shes exceptionally strong when someone learns how to be lame with her BECAUSE there are so few things that one can do to actually combat her turtling.

As far as "she isnt being offensive if shes being defensive" thing. Its the fact that she has the CHOICE to back off to a great lame neutral that makes her offense so good. She isnt forced to force things. If she smells an assist coming out... Fuckit just abort and go in after the assist has wiffed. If the assist didnt get baited shes lost very little, whereas a character like filia.. Has lost SO MUCH.

And finally if you cant see the strength in being able to dictate how and when you get in as being strong i dont know what to say.

Her offense is just as good as many characers if not better because she unlike some characters doesnt need to spend meter to convert her ground throws, and low/throw is the premier mixup in sg. Vals low/throw is godlike so... Yeah.

 

[ukyo_rulz]

Valentine is not a character like SF4 Dudley whose strength is their incredible up-close mixup game, where indeed he is either in and winning or out and losing. She has good and functional up close mixup but it is not the best.

I have been saying from the start that Val has great movement, but her mediocre close-range mix-up and non-existent long-range pressure mean she doesn't get much out of it. She can get wherever she wants to be, but she's not dominant no matter where she goes.

Then, you are somehow rhetorically questioning why Valentine would even want to go back into neutral... when you have stated very clearly that he can engage from ridiculous angles at her own discretion.

This ability to engage is good because it gets Val from where she is to where she wants to be. If Valentine's close-up game is bad enough that she would regularly find herself outclassed at up-close combat, then it devalues the utility of her ability to get up-close whenever she wants. She has to reset to neutral where she has no effective pressure tools (or maybe had no effective pressure tools. feel free to let me know if I missed any patches that significantly improved her ability to pressure from midrange), giving the other guy a chance to get his own stuff started.

Then, you are somehow rhetorically questioning why Valentine would even want to go back into neutral... when you have stated very clearly that he can engage from ridiculous angles at her own discretion.

I think you're conflating separate points. There are several points here.
1. Val has great movement, and can approach from favorable angles -> agreed by all, and universally acknowledged as good
2. Val can get back to neutral easily -> agreed by all, but I don't see why this is better than just threatening a kill. The fact that Val has to make use of this ability at all, to me, is evidence showing she's not that good.

Thus, I asked specifically for concrete examples of "defensive neutral setups" Val can do that would turn ability two from a neutral one to a positive one. In MVC2 Mags has amazing movement and suffocating up-close pressure that threatens kills once he is in. Storm has amazing movement and less suffocating up-close pressure, but she can pressure from far away as well. Val, to me, looks to have amazing movement, mediocre up-close pressure and not much ability to pressure from far away.

Her offensive air movement in pressure situations is slower and therefore less safe... but in exchange she has better ability to bait out counterpokes, supers, and reversals and then punish them, as well as adjust for pushblock better than lots of characters.

Which goes back to my point about the systems of SG: they don't favor a gameplan based around reacting to the opponent's actions. Val has to use great movement over an extended period of time to generate multiple favorable interactions while PW has movement that is not significantly worse combined with the ability to threaten a kill from a single favorable interaction.

This is why returning to neutral is a great idea for Valentine's pressure, because her neutral directly after being pushblocked out allows her to set up grossly advantageous situations in her favour. It is neutral in so far that neither character is being pressured, but the positioning is very clearly is in Val's favour.

This, perhaps, encapsulates the point where we fundamentally disagree on the character. I don't see Val as being "clearly favored" in neutral. It's neutral. She can use movement to setup a favorable interaction, but her mediocre up-close gameplan and lack of long-range pressure mean it's not "grossly advantageous" for her. Meanwhile the tools other characters have are not significantly worse but they get much more payoff from each favorable interaction.

An extreme way of looking at the same concept would be if we placed dice, where you win each roll of 1-4 and I win with 5-6. You are 2/3 favored to win each roll. But what if you needed five points to win and I needed just one?

 

[Tomo009]

I think you vastly underestimate Valentine's mid/full screen game.

Of course she wants to be on top of you, but the thing with Val is, she can get up high, you have to approach her, she doesn't have to approach you. She is basically completely safe in any situation until she finds the angle she wants and goes on offense.

Valentine doesn't have to take risks at neutral if she doesn't want to, she forces you on the offensive and her mobility options mean she can quite safely bait you into offensive action while still having the ability to get on top of you or flat out punish you afterwards.

 

[NCV]

So has there already been talk about how terrible the PS v EL matchup is or should I complain further

 

[fenster]

I know I said early on that PS vs Eliza was terrible for Parasoul. Since then, a lot of other Parasoul's I've talked don't feel too bad about it, some even think the MU is in her favor. A lot of Eliza's that I know have also said that they hate playing against Para due to how easily she can blow through Eliza's defense and with momentum can completely dominate midrange that Eliza can't really counter well for several factors.

At the moment, I think it's overall evenish. Both characters can completely blow through each other's defensive options, but both have good capabilities of countering/stuffing/whiff punishing each other's offense if they have a read. Neither has a sole good tool or approach that the other can't thoroughly deal with that doesn't require great reads.

That said, I *do* think that Parasoul needs to change up her gameplan slightly, in that while a lot of times using Napalm Shot is decent in midrange neutral/blockstrings, Eliza has easy tools (H DP, air dash jMK) to bypass them so you'll need to be slightly more careful when using fireballs.

 

[NCV]

idk man. I definitely can roll on EL when I get in, but there's a lot of things that keep that from happening.

-Sek shuts down mid-range shots, making mp and hp shots much riskier. no real answer for sek at all really but that's like half the cast
-Pushblock > dp from EL makes tearshots as block string enders much riskier
-throne makes motorbike useless, and the other minions are hard to deal with as well
-tough to air to air, and easy for EL to deadzone pillar
-lol sweep

That's all I thought of when playing Duck's EL and that was his stuff that he's been playing for only a little bit.

 

[keninblack]

I haven't played anyone that actually can play Eliza since only 2 (3?) exist but it seems weird.

Sek bodies Parasoul for fucking free I run like the biggest bitch, sweep is dumb too.

But she loses in the air I'd say. You just gotta be savage and go in the butt and not care, like Peacock.

FUKUA is the problem, in PS3 retail that is bar none Parasoul's worst MU.

 

[dekillsage]

I personally think Eliza wins the match up slightly in Retail. You can't really beat out eliza with anything unless you commit to attack first. But once you hit her Eliza doesn't have anything to stop Parasouls mix ups and she can safe jump all her reversals.

 

[ukyo_rulz]

I think you vastly underestimate Valentine's mid/full screen game.

Or you overestimate it.

Regardless, I am mostly satisfied that we've hashed out the differences. At this point it's just a value judgement. It's not like I don't see how Valentine can win by making use of her movement. I just don't see it as being better than what other characters have going on.

Of course she wants to be on top of you, but the thing with Val is, she can get up high, you have to approach her, she doesn't have to approach you.

Why do I have to approach her? What's she going to do? Throw shurikens? Valentine's the one who wants to be on top of me. I'm totally fine staying at neutral.

 

[Tomo009]

Why do I have to approach her? What's she going to do? Throw shurikens? Valentine's the one who wants to be on top of me. I'm totally fine staying at neutral.

This would lead to many time out losses against Valentine. Valentine doesn't even give up screen positioning, hell she pushes YOU back with assist use while maintaining this position of safety.

If you get complacent at neutral thinking the Valentine is going to get impatient, you are probably leaving many holes open for the Val to exploit. Valentine can throw out hitboxes so safely from this position, basically the only thing you can do if you don't take the initiative is counter call her assists and then hope she overextends. Which a patient Val shouldn't be doing, anyway.

 

[dekillsage]

Mannn can anyone beat valentine at neutral?

I can.

I can beat valentine at neutral.